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HD Radio is making thngs worse for Analog Radio

> >
> > The title of you post is HD Radio is making things worse
> for
> > analog. Please tell me how it is doing that?
> >
>
> I have posted why, and have answered why. Saying why for
> the 1000th time is not going to do you any good. You still
> won't get it.
>

He gets it.

Bottom line. People who have an issue: 3. People who don't: 100,000.

There's the math.

Here's a good number for you: Number of complaints I've gotten from people since I've lit up 2 IBOC signals? Zero.

Based on that, your OPINION is that IBOC is making analog worse FOR YOU. There's no proof that it is for everyone in general.

Care to give me one of your snarky replies? <P ID="signature">______________
</P>
 
> And the IBOC proponents would be correct.

Yes. That's why I said DXing will be a thing of the past.

Rich
 
> > And the IBOC proponents would be correct.
>
> Yes. That's why I said DXing will be a thing of the past.
>
> Rich
>

Right, but what I'm trying to understand is if this is your problem with IBOC, or is there more? I certainly understand the problem with DX'ing, but the reality is that radio makes no money from DX'ing, so why should broadcasters care?

I think I'm missing something...<P ID="signature">______________
</P>
 
> Right, but what I'm trying to understand is if this is your
> problem with IBOC, or is there more? I certainly understand
> the problem with DX'ing, but the reality is that radio makes
> no money from DX'ing, so why should broadcasters care?
>
> I think I'm missing something...

What you're missing is an earlier post of mine where I clearly (I thought) said broadcasters don't care one bit about DXers. Some engineers will cooperate with DX clubs when they plan maintenance but I don't know of any station that would take its signal down to facilitate DXers.

As a long time broadcast manager I'm concerned about the coverage area I can sell. Ad agencies don't buy based on fringe coverage. They buy on ratings. Local advertisers don't care if you reach someone 400 miles away unless they plan a visit. Not worth the price.

In my experience only Las Vegas and Atlantic City buy schedules way outside their markets because they're vacation destinations from all parts of the country. Even then they buy local stations in major markets most likely to drive listeners to come and gamble.

At XTRA we got a lot of Las Vegas buys. Same for Los Angeles. In New York we got Atlantic City. The tribal casinos in the Northeast usually buy stations within driving distance of their casinos. No DXers needed.

Rich
 
> Here are some audio clips to prove what I'm talking about
> here. They were recorded off my Yamaha T-80 (110 kHz IF
> filters) with the APS-13 antenna looking north, right
> through Boston, and then to the NH seacoast.
>
> 98.7 WBYY is a Class A station at 80 miles. This was
> recorded tonight, under basically dead band conditions. You
> will hear some analog splatter from 98.5 WBMX (not running
> IBOC yet, of course), but you will clearly hear Delilah in
> there on WBYY.
>
> http://home.comcast.net/~jjlehmann/987.mp3
>
> 96.7 WQSO (Class A, 83 miles) was a station I was able to
> hear just as well as WBYY, before 96.9 WTKK installed IBOC.
> This clip was recorded right after the WBYY one, with the
> antenna in the exact same direction.
>
> http://home.comcast.net/~jjlehmann/967.mp3
>

Well seeing that nobody has replied to my post, I guess nobody wants to admit the reality of what IBAC is doing. I guess this has now become a biased board, that will not allow us DXers to post our opinions. Thankfully I'm also a ham, whats next, IBAC repeaters, or IBAC on the sides of SSB signals?
 
> > Right, but what I'm trying to understand is if this is
> your
> > problem with IBOC, or is there more? I certainly
> understand
> > the problem with DX'ing, but the reality is that radio
> makes
> > no money from DX'ing, so why should broadcasters care?
> >
> > I think I'm missing something...
>
> What you're missing is an earlier post of mine where I
> clearly (I thought) said broadcasters don't care one bit
> about DXers. Some engineers will cooperate with DX clubs
> when they plan maintenance but I don't know of any station
> that would take its signal down to facilitate DXers.
>
> As a long time broadcast manager I'm concerned about the
> coverage area I can sell. Ad agencies don't buy based on
> fringe coverage. They buy on ratings. Local advertisers
> don't care if you reach someone 400 miles away unless they
> plan a visit. Not worth the price.
>
> In my experience only Las Vegas and Atlantic City buy
> schedules way outside their markets because they're vacation
> destinations from all parts of the country. Even then they
> buy local stations in major markets most likely to drive
> listeners to come and gamble.
>
> At XTRA we got a lot of Las Vegas buys. Same for Los
> Angeles. In New York we got Atlantic City. The tribal
> casinos in the Northeast usually buy stations within driving
> distance of their casinos. No DXers needed.
>
> Rich
>

Understood. (For the record K9EZ has taken his stations off the air to facilitate DX'ing)...

Anyway, do you think that IBOC is fundamentally bad because it causes problems for DX'ing, or other reasons? I am correct in thinking that you're againt IBOC, right?<P ID="signature">______________
</P>
 
> Anyway, do you think that IBOC is fundamentally bad because
> it causes problems for DX'ing, or other reasons? I am
> correct in thinking that you're againt IBOC, right?

I'm against the AM version because it tromps on other stations turf. What you do on your own turf is your business. Run test tones, for all I care. I don't care about DXing. It's fun but has absolutely no impact on our business.

Kenwood loaned me a tuner for a couple of months. I drove all over New England and, with their blessing, reported on what I heard.

The receiver was great. Virtually everyone was processing both the analog and HD1 the same, so mode changes were virtually undetectable. Bob Orban is a proponent of separate processing. He and I agree, since there's no preemphasis curve on the digital. Only one station, WBOS, Boston, was clearly processing separately. The downside is that the mode changes are very obvious when the digital collapses. In a purely digital world that wouldn't be an issue. Stations were delaying their analog so low digital signal areas wouldn't be as obvious. No 8 second delay every time the mode switched. Remember, also that BMW has the earlier version and dealers won't tolerate an expensive car being returned for warranty service because of the radio.

I'm critical about FM only because I've watched people online moan for years about how horrible cookie-cutter voicetracked jukeboxes are. Now they seem to think they're radio's salvation. I believe radio should be showbiz.

In order to move receivers I believe the content has to be good enough to inspire consumers to buy radios. We don't have the kind of receivers we need at the right price points and we don't have the programming we need. I'm afraid a non-radio groupie consumer will audition a radio, be unimpressed and never give it another try. Clearly, it's a chicken and eggs situation. It's going to require broadcasters to bite the bullet and program secondaries as if they were real radio stations even before there's hope of making a penny.

Personally, I haven't heard the FM adjacent channel problem, so I can't comment on it. I did notice that I was unable to listen to digital for as long as I could analog. The artifacts were subconsciously fatiguing. I'm concerned about TSL, particularly with women. This was on an NPR station that's well engineered and lightly processed so the high end wasn't squashed. Classical music.

The rest of the stations in all markets I visited had the usual smashed and mashed processing on both, making no use of the extended response of the HD signal.

There's also the sales/ratings issue. Without the peoplemeter how will we differentiate for an advertiser which channel they're listening to? Everything gives display credit to the analog call letters. It might be better to leave the display off and develop stationality by ear they way we do now.

Keep installing the FMs. Hold off on promoting until we can fulfill the promise we'll make on the air. An unimpressed prospective consumer won't come back when the $49 XM and SIRIUS receivers are on display everywhere.

Rich
 
> > Anyway, do you think that IBOC is fundamentally bad
> because
> > it causes problems for DX'ing, or other reasons? I am
> > correct in thinking that you're againt IBOC, right?
>
> I'm against the AM version because it tromps on other
> stations turf. What you do on your own turf is your
> business. Run test tones, for all I care. I don't care about
> DXing. It's fun but has absolutely no impact on our
> business.
>
> Kenwood loaned me a tuner for a couple of months. I drove
> all over New England and, with their blessing, reported on
> what I heard.
>
> The receiver was great. Virtually everyone was processing
> both the analog and HD1 the same, so mode changes were
> virtually undetectable. Bob Orban is a proponent of separate
> processing. He and I agree, since there's no preemphasis
> curve on the digital. Only one station, WBOS, Boston, was
> clearly processing separately. The downside is that the mode
> changes are very obvious when the digital collapses. In a
> purely digital world that wouldn't be an issue. Stations
> were delaying their analog so low digital signal areas
> wouldn't be as obvious. No 8 second delay every time the
> mode switched. Remember, also that BMW has the earlier
> version and dealers won't tolerate an expensive car being
> returned for warranty service because of the radio.
>
> I'm critical about FM only because I've watched people
> online moan for years about how horrible cookie-cutter
> voicetracked jukeboxes are. Now they seem to think they're
> radio's salvation. I believe radio should be showbiz.
>
> In order to move receivers I believe the content has to be
> good enough to inspire consumers to buy radios. We don't
> have the kind of receivers we need at the right price points
> and we don't have the programming we need. I'm afraid a
> non-radio groupie consumer will audition a radio, be
> unimpressed and never give it another try. Clearly, it's a
> chicken and eggs situation. It's going to require
> broadcasters to bite the bullet and program secondaries as
> if they were real radio stations even before there's hope of
> making a penny.
>
> Personally, I haven't heard the FM adjacent channel problem,
> so I can't comment on it. I did notice that I was unable to
> listen to digital for as long as I could analog. The
> artifacts were subconsciously fatiguing. I'm concerned about
> TSL, particularly with women. This was on an NPR station
> that's well engineered and lightly processed so the high end
> wasn't squashed. Classical music.
>
> The rest of the stations in all markets I visited had the
> usual smashed and mashed processing on both, making no use
> of the extended response of the HD signal.
>
> There's also the sales/ratings issue. Without the
> peoplemeter how will we differentiate for an advertiser
> which channel they're listening to? Everything gives display
> credit to the analog call letters. It might be better to
> leave the display off and develop stationality by ear they
> way we do now.
>
> Keep installing the FMs. Hold off on promoting until we can
> fulfill the promise we'll make on the air. An unimpressed
> prospective consumer won't come back when the $49 XM and
> SIRIUS receivers are on display everywhere.
>
> Rich
>

I'm glad I asked the question -

I completely agree with you. I believe that the AM system does have problems. As for programming, while I hope something good comes out of it, it's not in my sphere of influence. I simply design, install, and maintain. I do think that if the programming is good HD can provide some benefits compared to XM and Sirius (and I'm a Sirius subscriber).

There is still a good chunk of the population that wil never pay a subscription fee for radio. Once the cost comes down, it will be a natural to replace old radios with new, HD ones.

At least, that's my $.02.<P ID="signature">______________
</P>
 
> > Anyway, do you think that IBOC is fundamentally bad
> because
> > it causes problems for DX'ing, or other reasons? I am
> > correct in thinking that you're againt IBOC, right?
>
> I'm against the AM version because it tromps on other
> stations turf. What you do on your own turf is your
> business. Run test tones, for all I care. I don't care about
> DXing. It's fun but has absolutely no impact on our
> business.
>
> Kenwood loaned me a tuner for a couple of months. I drove
> all over New England and, with their blessing, reported on
> what I heard.
>
> The receiver was great. Virtually everyone was processing
> both the analog and HD1 the same, so mode changes were
> virtually undetectable. Bob Orban is a proponent of separate
> processing. He and I agree, since there's no preemphasis
> curve on the digital. Only one station, WBOS, Boston, was
> clearly processing separately. The downside is that the mode
> changes are very obvious when the digital collapses. In a
> purely digital world that wouldn't be an issue. Stations
> were delaying their analog so low digital signal areas
> wouldn't be as obvious. No 8 second delay every time the
> mode switched. Remember, also that BMW has the earlier
> version and dealers won't tolerate an expensive car being
> returned for warranty service because of the radio.
>
> I'm critical about FM only because I've watched people
> online moan for years about how horrible cookie-cutter
> voicetracked jukeboxes are. Now they seem to think they're
> radio's salvation. I believe radio should be showbiz.
>
> In order to move receivers I believe the content has to be
> good enough to inspire consumers to buy radios. We don't
> have the kind of receivers we need at the right price points
> and we don't have the programming we need. I'm afraid a
> non-radio groupie consumer will audition a radio, be
> unimpressed and never give it another try. Clearly, it's a
> chicken and eggs situation. It's going to require
> broadcasters to bite the bullet and program secondaries as
> if they were real radio stations even before there's hope of
> making a penny.
>
> Personally, I haven't heard the FM adjacent channel problem,
> so I can't comment on it. I did notice that I was unable to
> listen to digital for as long as I could analog. The
> artifacts were subconsciously fatiguing. I'm concerned about
> TSL, particularly with women. This was on an NPR station
> that's well engineered and lightly processed so the high end
> wasn't squashed. Classical music.
>
> The rest of the stations in all markets I visited had the
> usual smashed and mashed processing on both, making no use
> of the extended response of the HD signal.
>
> There's also the sales/ratings issue. Without the
> peoplemeter how will we differentiate for an advertiser
> which channel they're listening to? Everything gives display
> credit to the analog call letters. It might be better to
> leave the display off and develop stationality by ear they
> way we do now.
>
> Keep installing the FMs. Hold off on promoting until we can
> fulfill the promise we'll make on the air. An unimpressed
> prospective consumer won't come back when the $49 XM and
> SIRIUS receivers are on display everywhere.
>
> Rich
>
Your observations are accurate and your right on the money regarding the inability of radio groups to offer any original programming. What's the point of adding a gazzillion channels if it's all the same ol' cookie cutter crap?
I think there will be digital power increases when the analog goes away so range will be increased....the rimshots will be pushing hard for extended coverage.
 
> > >
> > > The title of you post is HD Radio is making things worse
>
> > for
> > > analog. Please tell me how it is doing that?
> > >
> >
> > I have posted why, and have answered why. Saying why for
> > the 1000th time is not going to do you any good. You
> still
> > won't get it.
> >
>
> He gets it.
>
> Bottom line. People who have an issue: 3. People who
> don't: 100,000.
>
> There's the math.
>
> Here's a good number for you: Number of complaints I've
> gotten from people since I've lit up 2 IBOC signals? Zero.
>
> Based on that, your OPINION is that IBOC is making analog
> worse FOR YOU. There's no proof that it is for everyone in
> general.
>
> Care to give me one of your snarky replies?

The people who used to listen to fm ,will now run out and get sirius or xm
nobody will get HD radio,its not practical.Fm DID shoot itself in the foot.
An sirius radio or xm radio is $49 and a HD radio is around $400.
Do the math.
 
> > > >
> > > > The title of you post is HD Radio is making things
> worse
> >
> > > for
> > > > analog. Please tell me how it is doing that?
> > > >
> > >
> > > I have posted why, and have answered why. Saying why
> for
> > > the 1000th time is not going to do you any good. You
> > still
> > > won't get it.
> > >
> >
> > He gets it.
> >
> > Bottom line. People who have an issue: 3. People who
> > don't: 100,000.
> >
> > There's the math.
> >
> > Here's a good number for you: Number of complaints I've
> > gotten from people since I've lit up 2 IBOC signals?
> Zero.
> >
> > Based on that, your OPINION is that IBOC is making analog
> > worse FOR YOU. There's no proof that it is for everyone in
>
> > general.
> >
> > Care to give me one of your snarky replies?
>
> The people who used to listen to fm ,will now run out and
> get sirius or xm
> nobody will get HD radio,its not practical.Fm DID shoot
> itself in the foot.
> An sirius radio or xm radio is $49 and a HD radio is around
> $400.
> Do the math.
>

Sirius and XM will run you $155.00 a year, plus $45. An HD radio *right now* will cost $200-$300 with *no* recurring fees, plus it's backward compatible with analog radios. The price of the radios are also coming down.

Now you do the math.<P ID="signature">______________
</P>
 
> > Here are some audio clips to prove what I'm talking about
> > here. They were recorded off my Yamaha T-80 (110 kHz IF
> > filters) with the APS-13 antenna looking north, right
> > through Boston, and then to the NH seacoast.
> >
> > 98.7 WBYY is a Class A station at 80 miles. This was
> > recorded tonight, under basically dead band conditions.
> You
> > will hear some analog splatter from 98.5 WBMX (not running
>
> > IBOC yet, of course), but you will clearly hear Delilah in
>
> > there on WBYY.
> >
> > http://home.comcast.net/~jjlehmann/987.mp3
> >
> > 96.7 WQSO (Class A, 83 miles) was a station I was able to
> > hear just as well as WBYY, before 96.9 WTKK installed
> IBOC.
> > This clip was recorded right after the WBYY one, with the
> > antenna in the exact same direction.
> >
> > http://home.comcast.net/~jjlehmann/967.mp3
> >
>
> Well seeing that nobody has replied to my post, I guess
> nobody wants to admit the reality of what IBAC is doing. I
> guess this has now become a biased board, that will not
> allow us DXers to post our opinions. Thankfully I'm also a
> ham, whats next, IBAC repeaters, or IBAC on the sides of SSB
> signals?
>

I am a DXer and a ham (hense the k9ez ID). I have ever performed DX tests on some of my stations.

I dont think that this needs to be a biased board, but some of us that have done a lot of testing and listening will try to keep the information are realistic as possible. There has been a lot of mis information tossed about. If we can keep the inform factual, that would be a help to everyone. It seems that some of us (your truely included) tend to be as little passionate about this topic. Lets keep the discussion open however!

That being said, perhaps you are seeing instances where HD Radio will take out a distant station. A class A at 83 miles is a bit of a stretch for your typical listener. It could also be how your receiver is responding to the HD Radio signal. I have presented on this board where I could get a adjacent station that was 90 miles away while an HD station 25 miles awsy was running HD. It does sound like FM DXing may change a bit as more and more HD stations come up. Make it impossible? I dont think so, but different.

Take advantage of the engineering talent here.
 
> > >
> > > The title of you post is HD Radio is making things worse
>
> > for
> > > analog. Please tell me how it is doing that?
> > >
> >
> > I have posted why, and have answered why. Saying why for
> > the 1000th time is not going to do you any good. You
> still
> > won't get it.
> >
>
> He gets it.
>
> Bottom line. People who have an issue: 3. People who
> don't: 100,000.
>
> There's the math.
>
> Here's a good number for you: Number of complaints I've
> gotten from people since I've lit up 2 IBOC signals? Zero.
>
> Based on that, your OPINION is that IBOC is making analog
> worse FOR YOU. There's no proof that it is for everyone in
> general.
>
> Care to give me one of your snarky replies?
>

You know what really funny is that I had to TELL some local DXers tht I had turned on one of my HD stations. They had no clue it was on! They didnt see a difference.
 
> >
> > Finally! You got it!
> >
>
> Actually he does, since he's right. The radios will NOT
> stop scanning more. I have three radios - none of them have
> done that.
>
> So yes, he's got it.
>


"The radios will NOT stop scannig more"???? Huh? I am not even sure what you are attempting to communicate. Did that sentence come out the way you intended?

All I know is that while scanning, my analog radio now stops on the HD channels, which are noise on my analog FM. Very, very annoying to say the least to have my scanning process filled with much more moisy clutter than before.


JMHO
 
> >
> > I have posted why, and have answered why. Saying why for
> > the 1000th time is not going to do you any good. You
> > still won't get it.
> >
>
> He gets it.
>
> Bottom line. People who have an issue: 3. People who
> don't: 100,000.
>
> There's the math.
>
> Here's a good number for you: Number of complaints I've
> gotten from people since I've lit up 2 IBOC signals? Zero.
>
> Based on that, your OPINION is that IBOC is making analog
> worse FOR YOU. There's no proof that it is for everyone in
> general.
>
> Care to give me one of your snarky replies?
>

Well at least you understand what I am saying. Took long enough. I can see that you are a bit sensitive to the HD issue and will pound anyone who doesn't tow your line.

But yes, while scanning on an FM analong the scanning process now stops on the unlistenable HD channels, thus, causing the SCANNING PROCESS to engage more overall noise across the FM band. That's all.
 
>
> The people who used to listen to fm ,will now run out and
> get sirius or xm nobody will get HD radio,its not practical.
> Fm DID shoot itself in the foot. An sirius radio or xm radio
> is $49 and a HD radio is around $400.
> Do the math.
>

Thank you! Finally a voice of reason.
 
>
> Sirius and XM will run you $155.00 a year, plus $45. An HD
> radio *right now* will cost $200-$300 with *no* recurring
> fees, plus it's backward compatible with analog radios. The
> price of the radios are also coming down.
>
> Now you do the math.
>


HD radio is still stuck to contours. Satellite radio and stations go across country with me.

You do the math.
 
> > >
> > > Finally! You got it!
> > >
> >
> > Actually he does, since he's right. The radios will NOT
> > stop scanning more. I have three radios - none of them
> have
> > done that.
> >
> > So yes, he's got it.
> >
>
>
> "The radios will NOT stop scannig more"???? Huh? I am not
> even sure what you are attempting to communicate. Did that
> sentence come out the way you intended?
>
> All I know is that while scanning, my analog radio now stops
> on the HD channels, which are noise on my analog FM. Very,
> very annoying to say the least to have my scanning process
> filled with much more moisy clutter than before.
>
>
> JMHO

OK I think we’ve got some confusion here, so let’s see if it can be cleared up a bit. Since I don’t know what market you are in, I’ll use Dallas. We have a city owned Classical Music station, WRR at 101.1 FM. This station is running HD. So if you were using your radio to scan, and it stops on 101.1 FM, would you be hearing what you are describing? Or is your radio stopping again on an adjacent frequency between say 101.2 FM through 101.5 FM where the noise is present? Use a station in your market to substitute for WRR in this example.
<P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by randrewsIII on 02/13/06 03:51 PM.</FONT></P>
 
> >
> > Sirius and XM will run you $155.00 a year, plus $45. An
> HD
> > radio *right now* will cost $200-$300 with *no* recurring
> > fees, plus it's backward compatible with analog radios.
> The
> > price of the radios are also coming down.
> >
> > Now you do the math.
> >
>
>
> HD radio is still stuck to contours. Satellite radio and
> stations go across country with me.
>
> You do the math.
>

Nice "Straw Man" argument! I got you on your numbers argument, so you ignore it and attack something else.

I can do that too...

HD radio has better audio quality than satellite.

You do the math.<P ID="signature">______________
</P>
 
> >
> > HD radio is still stuck to contours. Satellite radio and
> > stations go across country with me.
> >
> > You do the math.
> >
>
> Nice "Straw Man" argument! I got you on your numbers
> argument, so you ignore it and attack something else.
>
> I can do that too...
>


Straw Man argument? You are kidding I hope. I started the post about analog FM scanning and how the radio now stops on all the unlistenable HD channels. It is you who has taken this subject and turned it into a free for all smear campaign.
 
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