HD Radio is making thngs worse for Analog Radio

[Len14043]

> I have a car. That car has a AM/FM radio. The radio is not
> an HD radio. I doubt I will be getting an HD radio in my
> car anytime soon. But HD radio is ruining my current radio
> in my car.
>
> When I press the button on my car radio to do a channel
> search, the search now stops on HD channels. Those channles
> are just noise. Luckily, I know that those are the new HD
> channels so I realize why my radio search feature keeps
> stopping on noise 2 times more than it ever has.
>
> But not so lucky for those who do not know what HD radio is.
> For those poor souls, the only impression they can come
> away with is that the entire band on FM is cluttered with
> unlistenable junk.
>
> The "powers at be" did NOT think this through. This is
> going to drive listeners straight to satellite radio. The
> entire analog FM band now sounds like a swath of
> unlistenable junk!
>
> Dumb, dumb, dumb... talk about shooting one's feet off.
>
> JMHO
>
You are right. If I use the scan button, the radio will stop at 102.5 instead of where the actual station is, ie. 102.7. That happens on all the HD stations. But I wouldn't go as far as saying that the whole FM band is ruined. That small inconvience worth the benefits that HD will bring. A word of advice: Buy an HD radio and you will no longer have that problem!

 

[k9ez]

> > > It does it on the FM band in my car and the antenna is
> > good.
> > > FM just got a lot noiser with less music is how it
> comes
> > > across to me without an HD radio.
> >
> > I still say it's a problem specific with your radio, such
> as
> > multi-path distortion. If I were you, I'd go to the
> > Engineering board here at RI and describe your problem in
> > there. Hopefully someone with more in depth knowledge
> will
> > be able to help you figure out what is going on. Good
> luck!
> >
>
>
> I am not that worried about it. I'll be getting XM soon
> enough.
>


Theres your answer! Why did you come here to tell us you wer going to XM anyways? YOU were not listening to what others were telling you. I have done a LOT of listening. I haev listened to an analog FM 90 miles away in complette stereo, while an adjacent FM 25 miles away was running HD.

You suggested that the analog FM stations had added hiss to them. Which is not true. If it is happening to you it is your radio that is having trouble.

 

[k9ez]

> >
> > You are soooooo wrong about HD Radio not generating any
> > noise! It does on both
> > sides of the main channel and the antenna is not the
> > problem!
> >
>
>
> Thank you! finally a voice of reason! The FM HD channels
> on both sides of the regular analog channel do generate
> noise. It's a mix of noise (90%) with a bit of (10%) of the
> analog channel.
>
> And when doing an auto seek/search the seek pauses on those
> HD channels and you get noise. It's annoying when doing a
> seek. Lots more noise on the entire FM band when doing a
> seek.
>
> For people who do not have, or know of, HD it just makes the
> entire FM band seem like there are fewer stations and more
> noise. Like a ghost town or something.
>

How does HD make the FM band seem like there are fewer channels??? Again, I haev been able to pick up adjacent FMs with the locals runnign HD. Unless you are very close to the tower you should not have any issues. What stations are you missing that you had before?

 

[k9ez]

> > >
> > > Just to add. $13 per month is a LOT CHEAPER than an HD
> > > radio! Hah!
> > >
> >
> > Shall we do the math???
> >
> > HD Radio?
> > One time of $279 (plus tax) = $301.32
> >
>
> Where can I get an HD car radio for $279?
>


Crutchfield, the JVC multicast model (sorry I dont have the exact model number at my finger tips.)

 

[k9ez]

> >
> > OK, I have been in many markets with HD Radio. I have had
> a
> > few instances where the scan stopped at the adjacent
> > channel, but only when I was very close to a transmitter.
>
> > As I said before that would happen even without HD Radio
> due
> > to the analog slop. I have not had any instances of
> another
> > station being interfered with from HD Radio (on FM). What
>
> > exactly do you consider noise?
> >
>
> *sigh* You are just not listening are you?! My car radio
> during a search now stops on all HD channels. Those
> channels are unlistenable noise on my non HD car radio. So,
> for every channel that has HD, my car radio now stops 2 more
> times per channel and lands on NOISE.
>

And were you getting stations in those channels before? I bet not. So your point is......???

> This in turn gives the effect that the entire FM band is now
> more noise with fewer actual channels. It's like a static
> ghost town during an automatic search.
>
> I am trying to be as honest with you as I can. That's my
> observation. It's just 1 observation from 1 person. But it
> is MY observation and how the HD channels are affecting me
> -- a non HD car radio person.
>

I am sure you are being honest. It just confuses me why it is such a big deal that the scan stops on an previously empty channel.


> And I truly do like the fact that satellite radio displays
> who is playing with each song. That is a really good
> feature.
>
> JMHO of course.
>


And as I said FM has had that technology for YEARS. It is called RDS. HD does that as well.

 

[jlehmann]

> > I have a car. That car has a AM/FM radio. The radio is
> not
> > an HD radio. I doubt I will be getting an HD radio in my
> > car anytime soon. But HD radio is ruining my current
> radio
> > in my car.
> >
> > When I press the button on my car radio to do a channel
> > search, the search now stops on HD channels. Those
> channles
> > are just noise.
>
> There is no noise on FM HD stations. It only occurs on the
> AM band.
>
> I suspect your radio has a faulty antenna.
>

You must have a FM radio with very wide filters. If you have an FM radio with narrow filters, such as those in cars, especially aftermarket Pioneer, Blaupunkt etc., you certainly WILL hear the hash from the HD.

With my home FM DX setup (Modifield Yamaha T-80, APS-13 antenna), I have lost reception of several distant stations because of the IBOC hash. I know some people on here will say that I'm not "supposed" to hear these distant stations, but the fact is, I did hear them, and I can't any longer.

 

[k9ez]

> > > I have a car. That car has a AM/FM radio. The radio is
>
> > not
> > > an HD radio. I doubt I will be getting an HD radio in
> my
> > > car anytime soon. But HD radio is ruining my current
> > radio
> > > in my car.
> > >
> > > When I press the button on my car radio to do a channel
> > > search, the search now stops on HD channels. Those
> > channles
> > > are just noise.
> >
> > There is no noise on FM HD stations. It only occurs on
> the
> > AM band.
> >
> > I suspect your radio has a faulty antenna.
> >
>
> You must have a FM radio with very wide filters. If you have
> an FM radio with narrow filters, such as those in cars,
> especially aftermarket Pioneer, Blaupunkt etc., you
> certainly WILL hear the hash from the HD.
>
> With my home FM DX setup (Modifield Yamaha T-80, APS-13
> antenna), I have lost reception of several distant stations
> because of the IBOC hash. I know some people on here will
> say that I'm not "supposed" to hear these distant stations,
> but the fact is, I did hear them, and I can't any longer.
>


How far away are these stations you are trying to get? How close to the locals are you?

 

[k9ez]

> > There is no noise on FM HD stations. It only occurs on
> the
> > AM band.
> >
> > I suspect your radio has a faulty antenna.
> >
>
> There is on a non HD car radio when the search stops on the
> HD channels.
>


OK I performed a little test this afternoon.....

I took one of our company vehicals, a Toyota Tacoma with a factory car radio. I wen to two different HD stations, and sat under the tower of one of them. Not once did the scann stop on the adjacent channel. I also tried this at 1 mile and 3 miles, for two different stations It didnt stop once.

What I am saying is that I beleive that you are having troubles with the scan on your receiver. Please tell us what kind it is. But what I am suggesting is that the problem is with the recewiver, and not with the HD signal. But pelase do tell us what you have so we can better deal with it.

 

[passtheword]

> >
> > OK, I have been in many markets with HD Radio. I have had
> a
> > few instances where the scan stopped at the adjacent
> > channel, but only when I was very close to a transmitter.
>
> > As I said before that would happen even without HD Radio
> due
> > to the analog slop. I have not had any instances of
> another
> > station being interfered with from HD Radio (on FM). What
>
> > exactly do you consider noise?
> >
>
> *sigh* You are just not listening are you?! My car radio
> during a search now stops on all HD channels. Those
> channels are unlistenable noise on my non HD car radio. So,
> for every channel that has HD, my car radio now stops 2 more
> times per channel and lands on NOISE.
>
> This in turn gives the effect that the entire FM band is now
> more noise with fewer actual channels. It's like a static
> ghost town during an automatic search.
>
> I am trying to be as honest with you as I can. That's my
> observation. It's just 1 observation from 1 person. But it
> is MY observation and how the HD channels are affecting me
> -- a non HD car radio person.
>
> And I truly do like the fact that satellite radio displays
> who is playing with each song. That is a really good
> feature.
>
> JMHO of course.
>


I haven't heard any noise on adjacent channels, or having the seek function stopping on them, either, but then again, I'm probably 35 or 40 miles from the transmitters, too. Could be that your radio needs to be replaced, and it's just coincidence that it's happening around the same time the HD channels were started. The quality of the radio receiver also plays a large factor into all that; I just have a factory radio in my car and I'm not experiencing any type of noise on those adjacent channels.

For the most part, I do like the programming on satellite radio (from what I've heard on Direct TV), but I don't know if I'd want to pay $13/month for it. I do know that I don't want to part with $200-$400 for an HD receiver, in light of some of the programming I've heard online of some of the HD2 stations already. It's all a matter of personal choice.





*******************************************************

There'll be no radio in Heaven.
Will you be there?
www.PassTheWord.net

 

[sbe]

Oh YES IT DOES create the same noise. Many receivers just mute when they receive the noise, but some dont. Kinda like the blue screen on TV when no good station is receivable. So sometimes you dont hear it but it's there. And yes it takes away listening to stations you previously heard on adjacent channels. Thats another benifit to the broadcaster of transmitting on someone elses frequency.... gets rid of the competition.





> > There is on a non HD car radio when the search stops on
> the
> > HD channels.
>
> From your original post, you stated, "The entire analog FM
> band now sounds like a swath of unlistenable junk"
>
> On the "FM" band there is no HD noise. Yes, there is noise
> on HD "AM" stations. But you're claiming it happens on the
> FM band as well. It doesn't.
>

 

[sbe]

$279.95 to hear maybe 10 new channels? Where's the value there. On sat radio, you can get much cheaper than 13 per month. Sign up for a year and it's much cheaper, and you gets dozens of channels.



> > > WOW you must really think that the general public is
> > stupid.
> > > This will drive people to satellite??? Are you kidding?
>
> > I
> > > am going to pay $13 per month just because my scan stops
>
> > on
> > > an adjacent channel? PUH LEEEEZ!
> >
> > Just to add. $13 per month is a LOT CHEAPER than an HD
> > radio! Hah!
> >
>
> Shall we do the math???
>
> $50 Sat radio
> $13 per month (plus taxes) = $14.04
>
> 14.04 * 18 months (year and a half) = $252.72
>
> $252.72 + $50 (radio) = $302
>
> HD Radio?
> One time of $279 (plus tax) = $301.32
>
> So after a year and a half HD radio pays for itself. You
> keep paying and paying for Sat radio to listen to an
> inferior audio product with cheezy liners that is all voice
> tracked.
>
> Where is the deal now?
>

 

[radiodial]

> >
> > I am not that worried about it. I'll be getting XM soon
> > enough.
> >
>
>
> Theres your answer! Why did you come here to tell us you
> wer going to XM anyways?
>


I came here to discuss what I originally posted. I don't understand your statement?


> YOU were not listening to what
> others were telling you.


2 other people have already posted saying they are experiencing the same thing! It's you who is not listening.


> I have done a LOT of listening. I
> haev listened to an analog FM 90 miles away in complette
> stereo, while an adjacent FM 25 miles away was running HD.
>
> You suggested that the analog FM stations had added hiss to
> them. Which is not true. If it is happening to you it is
> your radio that is having trouble.
>


You are still not getting it. I and the others are not talking about HD interferring with an FM analog channel. We are saying that the radio, during a seek, stops on the HD channels and those channels are noisy. It has added more noise to the scanning process. That's all.

 

[jlehmann]

> > With my home FM DX setup (Modifield Yamaha T-80, APS-13
> > antenna), I have lost reception of several distant
> stations
> > because of the IBOC hash. I know some people on here will
> > say that I'm not "supposed" to hear these distant
> stations,
> > but the fact is, I did hear them, and I can't any longer.
> >
>
>
> How far away are these stations you are trying to get? How
> close to the locals are you?
>

97.5 WOKQ (Class B) Dover, NH (79 miles) was listenable here 90% of the time with a stereo signal. It's now still in there slightly, but not at all listenable, probably 10% of their audio makes it through the hash. 97.7 WILD-FM (the IBOCer) is only a class A, so the IBOC signal is weaker than others.

100.5 WRCH (Class B) New Britain/Hartford, CT (103 Miles) was always in there, most of the time listenable, other times fadey. Now it's completely gone, unless there's moderate tropo, then it'll be in there, with noise. If the tropo is strong, it'll come through clear. The local IBOCer is 100.7 WZLX (21 Miles).

93.1 WMGX (Class B) Portland, ME (116 mi.) was about the same as WRCH, maybe sligtly weaker. IBOCer is 92.9 WBOS (21 mi.). They're more difficult than WRCH to receive during trop, since I have to point in the same general direction as WBOS.

96.7 WQSO (Class A) Rochester, NH (83 mi.). Same as WMGX, and more difficult to receive, going almost right through 96.9 WTKK's IBOC.

Others that would be weak, but in there all the time, and good with weak trop:

93.1 WHYN-FM Springfield, MA (B, 90, 92.9 WBOS)
94.7 WMAS-FM Springfield, MA (B, 88, 94.5 WJMN)
96.7 WHBE East Hampton, NY (A, 100, 96.9 WTKK)
100.9 WKNL New London, CT (A, 78, 100.7 WZLX)
101.3 WKCI Hamden, CT (B, 115, 101.5 WWBB) Completely gone, with WWBB being in the same direction.
102.3 WWHK Concord, NH (A, 86, 102.5 WCRB)
104.3 WABK Gardiner, ME (B, 163, 104.1 WBCN)
106.5 WBMW Ledyard, CT (A, 72, 106.7 WMJX)
107.7 WWRX Pawcatuck, CT (A, 68, 107.9 WXKS-FM)

There are also some stations that are still reasonable strong when pointed away fromt the IBOCer, but now have hash on their signal.

91.1 WSMU North Dartmouth, MA (A, 32, 90.9 WBUR)
103.9 WOCN South Yarmouth, MA (A, 47, 104.1 WBCN)
101.7 WFNX Lynn, MA (A, 26, 101.5 WWBB) I'm in Boston market, which this station covers. This station used to be very listenable in the car, and it now fights with WWBB's IBOC (25 miles).

There are probably others, but here's a good list to give you an idea. I'm not at any kind of super elevation either, in fact, I'm surrounded on most sides by 100' higher elevation. Again, I know I wasn't "supposed" to hear these stations, but hey, I'm a DXer and radio geek, and I enjoyed hearing stations from outside the area once in a while.

 

[jlehmann]

> > > With my home FM DX setup (Modifield Yamaha T-80, APS-13
> > > antenna), I have lost reception of several distant
> > stations
> > > because of the IBOC hash. I know some people on here
> will
> > > say that I'm not "supposed" to hear these distant
> > stations,
> > > but the fact is, I did hear them, and I can't any
> longer.
> > >
> >
> >
> > How far away are these stations you are trying to get?
> How
> > close to the locals are you?
> >
>
> 97.5 WOKQ (Class B) Dover, NH (79 miles) was listenable here
> 90% of the time with a stereo signal. It's now still in
> there slightly, but not at all listenable, probably 10% of
> their audio makes it through the hash. 97.7 WILD-FM (the
> IBOCer) is only a class A, so the IBOC signal is weaker than
> others.
>
> 100.5 WRCH (Class B) New Britain/Hartford, CT (103 Miles)
> was always in there, most of the time listenable, other
> times fadey. Now it's completely gone, unless there's
> moderate tropo, then it'll be in there, with noise. If the
> tropo is strong, it'll come through clear. The local IBOCer
> is 100.7 WZLX (21 Miles).
>
> 93.1 WMGX (Class B) Portland, ME (116 mi.) was about the
> same as WRCH, maybe sligtly weaker. IBOCer is 92.9 WBOS (21
> mi.). They're more difficult than WRCH to receive during
> trop, since I have to point in the same general direction as
> WBOS.
>
> 96.7 WQSO (Class A) Rochester, NH (83 mi.). Same as WMGX,
> and more difficult to receive, going almost right through
> 96.9 WTKK's IBOC.
>
> Others that would be weak, but in there all the time, and
> good with weak trop:
>
> 93.1 WHYN-FM Springfield, MA (B, 90, 92.9 WBOS)
> 94.7 WMAS-FM Springfield, MA (B, 88, 94.5 WJMN)
> 96.7 WHBE East Hampton, NY (A, 100, 96.9 WTKK)
> 100.9 WKNL New London, CT (A, 78, 100.7 WZLX)
> 101.3 WKCI Hamden, CT (B, 115, 101.5 WWBB) Completely gone,
> with WWBB being in the same direction.
> 102.3 WWHK Concord, NH (A, 86, 102.5 WCRB)
> 104.3 WABK Gardiner, ME (B, 163, 104.1 WBCN)
> 106.5 WBMW Ledyard, CT (A, 72, 106.7 WMJX)
> 107.7 WWRX Pawcatuck, CT (A, 68, 107.9 WXKS-FM)
>
> There are also some stations that are still reasonable
> strong when pointed away fromt the IBOCer, but now have hash
> on their signal.
>
> 91.1 WSMU North Dartmouth, MA (A, 32, 90.9 WBUR)
> 103.9 WOCN South Yarmouth, MA (A, 47, 104.1 WBCN)
> 101.7 WFNX Lynn, MA (A, 26, 101.5 WWBB) I'm in Boston
> market, which this station covers. This station used to be
> very listenable in the car, and it now fights with WWBB's
> IBOC (25 miles).
>
> There are probably others, but here's a good list to give
> you an idea. I'm not at any kind of super elevation either,
> in fact, I'm surrounded on most sides by 100' higher
> elevation. Again, I know I wasn't "supposed" to hear these
> stations, but hey, I'm a DXer and radio geek, and I enjoyed
> hearing stations from outside the area once in a while.
>

Here are some audio clips to prove what I'm talking about here. They were recorded off my Yamaha T-80 (110 kHz IF filters) with the APS-13 antenna looking north, right through Boston, and then to the NH seacoast.

98.7 WBYY is a Class A station at 80 miles. This was recorded tonight, under basically dead band conditions. You will hear some analog splatter from 98.5 WBMX (not running IBOC yet, of course), but you will clearly hear Delilah in there on WBYY.

http://home.comcast.net/~jjlehmann/987.mp3

96.7 WQSO (Class A, 83 miles) was a station I was able to hear just as well as WBYY, before 96.9 WTKK installed IBOC. This clip was recorded right after the WBYY one, with the antenna in the exact same direction.

http://home.comcast.net/~jjlehmann/967.mp3

 

[Len14043]

> Oh YES IT DOES create the same noise. Many receivers just
> mute when they receive the noise, but some dont. Kinda like
> the blue screen on TV when no good station is receivable.
> So sometimes you dont hear it but it's there. And yes it
> takes away listening to stations you previously heard on
> adjacent channels.
But only a DXer would notice. The general public does not listen to ajacient stations.

>Thats another benifit to the broadcaster
> of transmitting on someone elses frequency.... gets rid of
> the competition.
Again, IBOC does not get rid of the competition. I'll bet that DXers are less than 1/1000th of the listening public, and the loss noticed by DXers would not impact upon the broadcasters bottom line.

 

[taylorengineer]

> > >
> > > You are soooooo wrong about HD Radio not generating any
> > > noise! It does on both
> > > sides of the main channel and the antenna is not the
> > > problem!
> > >
> >
> >
> > Thank you! finally a voice of reason! The FM HD channels
>
> > on both sides of the regular analog channel do generate
> > noise. It's a mix of noise (90%) with a bit of (10%) of
> the
> > analog channel.
> >
> > And when doing an auto seek/search the seek pauses on
> those
> > HD channels and you get noise. It's annoying when doing a
>
> > seek. Lots more noise on the entire FM band when doing a
> > seek.
> >
> > For people who do not have, or know of, HD it just makes
> the
> > entire FM band seem like there are fewer stations and more
>
> > noise. Like a ghost town or something.
> >
>
> How does HD make the FM band seem like there are fewer
> channels??? Again, I haev been able to pick up adjacent FMs
> with the locals runnign HD. Unless you are very close to
> the tower you should not have any issues. What stations are
> you missing that you had before?
>
Hey K9,

Your banging your head against the wall!!
Radiodial, Supersound, et al. have made their assumptions and guesses....they DO NOT like IBOC. Facts only interfere with the discussion. They hear noises, the radio does not function anymore, and all those engineers are lying about the math and measurements! After all, there's people gettin' "filthy rich" off this IBOC "conspiracy".....and, you know, they could care less about stealing the "workingman's radio!" You, as a professional broadcast engineer, have been duped.
Gold plated wire SOUNDS better than copper too! To hell with the math and lab measurements....don't try to tell these folks what they hear with their own ears! The fact that you can not agree simply proves your hearing is not up to par.....same is true for IBOC.
It is sad.... perception is more important than fact. Thanks for all the pros on these boards trying to get the facts out.

 

[HD_Ready]

Somehow I'm not sure I'd go thru so much work to listen to Delilah.......and the second cut was all hiss.

 

[HD_Ready]

> I am not that worried about it. I'll be getting XM soon
> enough.
>
Just don't drive under any bridges or thick trees hoping to listen to your XM.

 

[RichWood]

> There are probably others, but here's a good list to give
> you an idea. I'm not at any kind of super elevation either,
> in fact, I'm surrounded on most sides by 100' higher
> elevation. Again, I know I wasn't "supposed" to hear these
> stations, but hey, I'm a DXer and radio geek, and I enjoyed
> hearing stations from outside the area once in a while.

In most cases you list, IBUZ proponents will argue that the stations are well beyond their protected contours and must accept the interference. DX will be a thing of the past.

Rich

 

[jlehmann]

> Somehow I'm not sure I'd go thru so much work to listen to
> Delilah.......and the second cut was all hiss.
>

I know your entire purpose of being on radio-info is to get on my nerves, but if that was a serious response, you missed the point of the audio COMPLETELY!