February '24 Rolling Average

[Radiowaves]

That is known in the industry as "ratings distortion and bias" and one of the conditions for accreditation by the Media Ratings Council is control of attempts to bias survey results.

Home | MRC

Media Rating Council (MRC) is a not-for-profit industry self-regulatory body, established in 1963 at the request of US Congress, that audits and accredits measurement services.

mediaratingcouncil.org

As Rusty said, stations sign contracts with Nielsen and commit to following a specific set of rules regarding on-air mentions of ratings and the use of the data they receive.

You have no evidence or proof that ratings are "inaccurate". In fact, they are not. There is a margin of error in any study based on taking a sample and projecting it into the universe, and that is stated clearly in all Nielsen reports.

And the MRC, which was formed back in the early 60's after congressional investigations of ratings, protects advertisers. They do not allow ratings companies to tolerate ratings references on the air other than "Nielsen certified #1 in all of Ourtown!"

Neither do. Radio stations are run by their owners. The FCC regulates them. Just as you own your car (or your bank does until you finish paying) but the police regulate its use on the road and other government agencies regulate its emissions, tax liabilities, etc.

Own =/= Regulate

And Nielsen does not weigh numbers significantly.

In the PPM markets, the panel should totally parallel the population on each of the stratification variables including age, gender, ethnicity, race, income, education, area of residence. Only tiny weighting should occur when there is panel turnover.

In the diary, which is a random probability sample and not a panel, during each rating period the recruiting for the remaining weeks is adjusted based on the qualified diaries that come back from the first weeks to try to have as true a sample as possible. However, if the end shows that Hispanic women 25-34 should be 16% of the total 25-34 sample but they only got 14% of the diaries from that group, each diary is weighted up by about 8%. Similarly, if they got 18% of diaries in that demo from Hispanic Women 25-34, every diary is proportionally weighted down.

There is no "who they think is listening". There is weighting to make the sample be a perfect mirror of the market.

Stations that don't show are likely not subscribed. Or, because they did not meet the minimum requirements for a 0.1 share. The two you mentioned, as Rusty stated, changed calls... some time ago... and are doing fine.

No, they dropped the Nielsen ratings in one or two markets where there was very little agency business. In the end, they signed a group deal. They never were without the ratings in most markets.

In markets without much agency business, ratings are not needed.

That may work in some smaller markets. But in most of the larger markets most of your business... and most of the available business... comes from agencies. There are national, regional and even local agencies but if you are trying to be a reasonably good and high biller, you have to use ratings to sell to agencies.

One of my functions in market 14 (at the time) was for some years GSM for the #1 station which had a share that was double the #2 station for the two decades I was involved. 95% of our business came from the roughly 120 local ad agencies. There was no "good money" from direct accounts and we did not even have a local direct sales person as selling direct, under analysis, cost us money in lost agency business and wasted time.

Obviously you have never managed a major market station or been the sales manager for one.

So you are right about everything, and I’m wrong about everything.

You are wrong. I do have proof that diary takers have been wrong many, many times. They write things that don’t even exist and then they give quarter hours to the total opposite of the things they wrote.

Anyone who thinks an archaic system like the diary system in radio really needs to join 2024.

Let’s talk about weighting directly. I spoke to a head person at Nielsen and he confirmed that in each market Nielsen has to “assume” that particular age groups like younger, are listening just as much as older demos. They make an assumption. They have NO way of knowing who listens and who does not. They have to “assume” younger people are listening just as much or it would not be fair to younger people. That is not good methodology.

The MRC? What a crock. Equivalent to the three companies that control FICO scores. Lightly regulated by the government, but private companies who just control everyone’s lives without oversight.

You are very “by the book” in the things you say, but there are “in-betweens, yet if I tell you that you are not correct about something, you come back strong with your “facts”. Is your real last name Marconi?

 

[Radiowaves]

When managers of a station or group sign a contract with Nielsen, the station or group is required to abide by the terms of the contract. Ratings do not come under the aegis of the FCC rules and regulations.

WNIA and WSAY are call letters no longer in play in Buffalo and Rochester, respectively. WNIA, on 1230 is now Oldies WECK. WSAY, on 1370 is now Public Radio WXXI. Both stations are eminently viable in their present formats.

Can you send me a recent Nielsen contract that says what you are talking about?

 

[DavidEduardo]

So you are right about everything, and I’m wrong about everything.

So far, yes, you are correct in that assumption.

You are wrong. I do have proof that diary takers have been wrong many, many times. They write things that don’t even exist and then they give quarter hours to the total opposite of the things they wrote.

As I said, I did diary reviews over a period of 40 years in person and was even one of the names on the review manager's office wall that included those who had managed to get a book reissued.

Sure, there is human error. And misunderstanding.

Around 1970, I was doing a review for a station in the DC market. In one diary, a "little old lady" had written in half hour listening spans to every AM and FM station in the market and its suburbs. She thought she had to "score" them. She said so in the diarykeeper comments section.

But those incidents are in so few diaries that they don't affect the overall results.

Anyone who thinks an archaic system like the diary system in radio really needs to join 2024.

As I said, the system is migrating to an online register system. And versions of the diary are used all over the world. Only in places where literacy is lower and the cost of interveiwers is also low are in-person 24 hour recall services used; those are even more error prone because the people being interviewed often respond "with the answers they think they should give".

I recall tagging along with the house to house recall based interview system team in Puerto Rico. They'd ask just a couple of questions: Are you listening to the radio. And What station are you listening to. They'd confirm it by having the person increase the volume and verifying it with a radio with a marked dial. At one home in an upper middle class ("B" scocioeconomic level in Latin America) we could hear the next home was tuned to WKVM, a very low class or "popular class" station. The interviewer asked about listening, and the woman in the home said, "WIPR" which was the government equivalent of NPR. The sound-to-radio match showed she was lying to preserve her desired image.

So much for in-person interviews.

Let’s talk about weighting directly. I spoke to a head person at Nielsen and he confirmed that in each market Nielsen has to “assume” that particular age groups like younger, are lisdening just as much as older demos.

That is not true. They "presume" nothing. Each standard demographic break is among the stratification variables and treated as separate entities. So if the average PUR in 18-24 is 4 hours a week and just 65% of them listen to radio (AM, FM, streams, etc) that demo shows that result in the published reports.

I can pull up the data for a whole bunch of markets and look at each cell and see the differences in the radio usage for each one. And that means by age range and that is divided into gender, race, ethnicity and even education and income breaks. So I can tell that 18-24 men listen less per week than women in the same demo, but both genders of Hispanics listen a lot more. And so on.

They make an assumption. They have NO way of knowing who listens and who does not. They have to “assume” younger people are listening just as much or it would not be fair to younger people. That is not good methodology.

Wrong, totally wrong. In both PPM and the diary system, people are told that if they don't listen... or what stations they listen to... or when they listen... does not matter. They just have to write down (diary) what they do listen to and leave blank the times they did not listen and just carry the meter (PPM) even if they listen to no radio at all.

Going back to the 70's we saw for about three decades about 6% of diarykeepers who did not listen to radio at all. Several studies showed that more than half of the non-listeners had unusual circumstances such as illness, a death in the famiily or even a broken radio. The other half ranged from religious reasons to "I don't like most of the stuff on the radio today".

Now, we see over 11% non-listeners and we see shorter TSL times. Obviously, this is due to new media competing for time. And we know by age group and all the other varibles how much each one does or does not listen.

The MRC? What a crock. Equivalent to the three companies that control FICO scores. Lightly regulated by the government, but private companies who just control everyone’s lives without oversight.

The MRC has nothing to do with the government. It was set up by the advertising industry to insure member ad agencies that ratings were reliable. There are some of the best media researchers in the world involved in every era of the MRC.

Oh, and the three major credit agencies do not "control" FICO scores. FICO does, and licences credit agencies to use their technology.

You are very “by the book” in the things you say, but there are “in-betweens, yet if I tell you that you are not correct about something, you come back strong with your “facts”. Is your real last name Marconi?

That's just insulting. I am giving you facts based on lots of ratings experience and definite inside knowledge: I was on the original Arbitron-Nielsen-Radio-Ad Agency board that worked on the original Philadelphia PPM tests starting around 2002, and got weekly CDs of the findings and tehn got on conference calls and did fly-ins to pore over the data. Heck, I even wrote the software for the radio ratings in Puerto Rico that were used for two decades before we got Arbitron to enter the market.

 

[DavidEduardo]

Can you send me a recent Nielsen contract that says what you are talking about?

No, because that is confidential between the station or its group owner and Nielsen. It reveals the pricing and terms, and that is not public information.

But Rusty is right: the contracts indicate that the subscriber will conform to all the conditions of use of radio ratings and any revisions made to same during the term of the contract.

In general, there are conditions on using ratings data in sales literature, in advertising and in on-air references to ratings. The penalties include delisting of a station or group that violates the terms as well as notices to users (meaning "ad agencies") about such violations. There are statements about ratings being an estimate and requiring the subscriber to acknowledge that fact. And so on.

 

[DavidEduardo]

If S & R moved to WBUF and someone wrote their names in a Nielsen Diary, that station should get FULL credit. They would no longer be heard on 97 Rock.

But if they put the name of the show and the name of the former station, the credit would be assigned to each of the two in proportion to their most current ratings.

 

[tbolt909]

To the best of my reading and awareness, IF Shredd & Ragan moved to WBUF and a diary respondent wrote "Shredd & Ragan 97 Rock" S&R / WBUF would get partial credit and 97 would receive partial credit. If the diary respondent wrote only "Shredd & Ragan," S&R (and WBUF) would get full credit. I stand by my post.

Yes, if they mentioned both host and wrong station. That also would indicate that people aren't paying close attention to what they are actually listening to. That's why in a diary market, a station that has been around a long time can get credit for the past...

 

[Buffaloradio716]

C'mon man, seriously? Moden lives and breathes Country. Val was/is talented, but Clay is the name on the marque. Surprised Val hasn't turned up on another frequency ... although, IIRC, when she left WYRK, she laid tracks of scorched earth and ripped radio in general "a new one." Bold lady.

Looks like another one bites the dust for Clay LOL

 

[flybynight]

Around 1970, I was doing a review for a station in the DC market. In one diary, a "little old lady" had written in half hour listening spans to every AM and FM station in the market and its suburbs. She thought she had to "score" them. She said so in the diarykeeper comments section.

Reminds me of when I had to do my first book report in 1st grade. I thought you had to basically rewrite the entire book in your own words. After rewriting just the first page of Sally, Dick and Jane, in my own words, the story was even longer. At 6 years old I thought, "wow, these book reports are so hard".

Sounds like ARB did as good a job of explaining the project as my teacher.

 

[Rusty Bridges]

View attachment 6820
Looks like another one bites the dust for Clay LOL

Huh?

Kadie is prominently on the WYRK website, including Clay & Company. She's very much on board and part of the station as witnessed by this web page. Doesn't appear to be any dust biting goin' on.

 

[ckg279]

To follow up on what Rusty said on page 3 re Steve Harvey: He's also on WDKX. The morning show he replaced is still around, but it bookends Harvey's show on both ends.