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February '24 Rolling Average

It depends. Most TV stations put a lot of emphasis in their local news coverage. That's how they build station loyalty.
And in many cases, that is where nearly all their profits come from.

In my market, the leading TV cluster (ABC, CBS, Fox and Telemundo) has news almost all day on at least one of the channels, a large news staff and quality investigative reporting. Because of that, and the decline of the sole local newspaper, they are the first choice for most local accounts and get a good share of regional agency accounts even in local programming.
 
It depends. Most TV stations put a lot of emphasis in their local news coverage. That's how they build station loyalty.
Like I said, they put emphasis on shows. News is like a show. Nobody gets up in the morning and says “ god, I can’t wait to watch channel 4 today” . They do say, I can’t wait to watch a show, like football, movie, news, etc
 
That is why we have "same day" ratings as well as delayed viewing data.

With some of the network-owned streaming services like Paramount+, Hulu and Peacock delaying the stream from the live broadcast, this is essential data. Segregation of streams is important as those network controlled services don't usually carry ads (premium) or different ads.

Then you have the still huge percentage of homes with cable who have recording devices that allow one to view at their convenience. Those have ads, but advertisers know that most of us skip them.

So not only does multiplatfom viewing need to be considered, the type of ad content, if any, and "skipping" have to be considered.
I have ROKU TV. No cable. There are so many tv apps it’s mind boggling. Why would anyone have cable? It’s too limited. You can find entire channels devoted to your favorite shows only.
 
I can’t wait to watch channel 4 today”

When did that ever happen? Even in the network radio days, people would identify with shows. That's why Bill Paley conducted his famous talent raid:

His greatest coups, however, known as the Paley Raids, came in the 1940's, at the expense of NBC. By offering performers huge sums for the rights to their shows, with the money taxable as capital gains instead of as income, CBS was able to sign up Jack Benny, Burns and Allen, Edgar Bergen, Red Skelton and other stars of the 30's and 40's.

Even ''Must See TV'' was built around shows, not NBC.

The other way stations brand themselves is by format.
 
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Like I said, they put emphasis on shows. News is like a show. Nobody gets up in the morning and says “ god, I can’t wait to watch channel 4 today” . They do say, I can’t wait to watch a show, like football, movie, news, etc
True, but they may say "what's on Fox News" or "what are they talking about on MSNBC" depending on their political persuasion.
 
If you want to hear PERSONALITIES, then you probably don't want that personality interrupted by music. Howard Stern realized that 30 years ago. Imus realized that over 30 years ago.
I'd say Stern realized that 40 years ago, then Imus a few years later. In the early 80's, while still on WNBC, Stern often complained about music getting in his way. Imus gave little indication he had an issue with the music and kept it rolling until the debut of WFAN in '88. Maybe that made some sense though, as Imus was a far better jock technically than Stern. Imus had a great voice and fantastic timing. Stern was better long-form talking, but his jock skills were terrible.
 
Getting back to Shredd and Ragan for a moment, it sure ain't the music that brings them listeners. There isn't that much of it. There were complaints from listeners to the former morning show, but that was offset by the Shredd and Ragan fans from their WEDG morning show who followed them to 97-Rock. It's hard to tell how many of the complainers came back, or how many WEDG fans gravitated to the new morning show there. What happens after 10AM, when the switch to music happens, likely influences audiences for both morning shows. To suggest that it's the station legacy or the music format that's making their morning numbers successful is simply wrong. They've established their worth in the Buffalo market.
 
Getting back to Shredd and Ragan for a moment They've established their worth in the Buffalo market.
And yet if they disappeared tomorrow, it would have no impact. I would bet that if WBUF hired them, that station would still be under a 2 share. You'd be right about their "worth" if they could resurrect that station.

Listening habits are pretty much set in concrete in a market like Buffalo. I wouldn't be surprised if some people filling out a Nielsen Diary write down 97 Rock, but actually haven't listened to the station in 15 years...
 
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And yet if they disappeared tomorrow, it would have no impact. I would bet that if WBUF hired them, that station would still be under a 2 share. You'd be right about their "worth" if they could resurrect that station.

Listening habits are pretty much set in concrete in a market like Buffalo. I wouldn't be surprised if some people filling out a Nielsen Diary write down 97 Rock, but actually haven't listened to the station in 15 years...
You are correct . Diary keepers write down wrong information all of the time. Nielsen is very, very outdated and not trustworthy. Anyone who has ever received a diary can attest to that, people who have never got a diary can attest as well.
 
When Shredd and Raga left WEDG ratings dropped until they got a new morning show established. The new team has recovered a lot of the lost ratings, but the demos are different. For Cumulus, it's a win. 97-Rock's numbers are bigger than they've been since Norton left. That seems to indicate that Shredd and Ragan do have a following, and WEDG is getting some help from the ineptitude of WBUF. Maybe if you folks were actually in the market you might be more aware of what's going on here.
 
You are correct . Diary keepers write down wrong information all of the time.
As someone who reviewed literally millions of diaries over a 40-year span, I can say that misinformation is relatively rare.

When listener errors occur, we usually have minor cases of things like "Ryan Seacrest WXYZ" when Ryan is on WAAA. Nielsen splits the quarter hours. Or we have a person writing down "107" when there are locals on 107.1 and 107.7. Nielsen allocates those in proportion to the share in the last book for those two stations.

Nielsen accepts exact frequency, rounded frequency when part of the station's registered name, talent names, slogans and station names and network affiliations. The vast majority of diary entries are by station name.
Nielsen is very, very outdated and not trustworthy.
The diary system, now transitioning to "on line diary" options if the listener wishes, is the best system worldwide for markets that can't afford metered measurement. It's used worldwide either in a written form or via personal interviews in nations with poor literacy rates.
Anyone who has ever received a diary can attest to that, people who have never got a diary can attest as well.
The diary system in its online incarnation is quite accurate and accepted world-wide by advertisers and ad agencies. No random probability sample (diary) or panel (meter) survey is totally accurate. But the data is adequate for advertisers to select the right stations to by time on.

The biggest issue with the diary, the meter or any other measurement is to get people to fill in the diary every day or to carry the meter all the time. Nielsen has terrific systems to follow up in both cases. Advertisers who spend billions on radio ads trust it with their money..
 
Listening habits are pretty much set in concrete in a market like Buffalo. I wouldn't be surprised if some people filling out a Nielsen Diary write down 97 Rock, but actually haven't listened to the station in 15 years...
Very unlikely. How many diaries have you reviewed? My count is in the millions over a 40-year span in Beltsville, Columbia and Laurel and later online.

Only one time in all those years and all those markets (I got three diary books reissued) did I see listening that was obviously inaccurate reported: An 87 year old white woman in Chicago wrote in listening to a famous MOR morning guy on WIND. At the time, WIND had been in Spanish for 15 years. And the talent she wrote in died years before in an airplane accident.

So, despite all my experience and obvious skills in analyzing diaries, I only spotted a couple of errors big enough to change the results (to reissue, the rank of a station has to change). In all cases, the issues had to with a competitor registering a Spanish language "slogan" in its Station Information Profile that was actually generic and could not be attributed to one single station, and not truly an Arbiton / Nielsen error.
 
And yet if they disappeared tomorrow, it would have no impact. I would bet that if WBUF hired them, that station would still be under a 2 share. You'd be right about their "worth" if they could resurrect that station.
Disagree. DE thoroughly explained the diary process earlier in this thread. Good primer.

IF S&R moved to WBUF and listeners wrote down "Shredd (or 'Shred') & Ragan (or 'Reagan')" or any viable variation, WBUF would get at least half and likely whole credit for the entry. It's been my observation that when personalities move (e.g., Dan Neaverth moving from KB to WHTT many years ago), the new radio station saturates the airwaves with "the new home of Dan Neaverth-type" promos and outside promotion, TV, billboards; these days it would be blasts on social media, etc.

I've had the experience of being a (legitimate) diary keeper. I was probably more diligent than most accounting for my listening and station changes, at least when at home. But also like most holders, I didn't fill it out the diary in my car while driving. In those cases, I guesstimated listening times later in the day like everybody else. "Let's see, I left for Home Depot at 8:10, got there at 8:20 and I listened to WXXX and WYYY ... then I drove home around 9:15 and ... of wait, I stopped at Wegman's ... what time was that ... around 9:25, yeah ... and then..." It's easy to see how the average diary listener 'rounds up' (or down) and guesstimates his/her listening. Any wonder program directors go gray earlier than most people?

Arbitron-Nielsen was (is) quite aware of this diary quirk. They also knew (know) that many diary keepers are not as precise with the start and end listening times, and despite the diary letter and diary utself exhorting listeners to keep a daily tab, some diary keepers fill out their diaries sporadically or, in some cases for the whole week on one day, just before it's to be mailed back to Nielsen.

DE may have a different take on this, but from what I have read and heard from radio pros, this often is the case. There was a time when program directors strongly advocated time checks around call letter-frequency mentions so listeners would get the correct time if and when they were keeping a diary.

This is where PPM is more precise than the diary method.

And then there were ... 70s and early 80s, IIRC ... the occasional "Dear diary, today I listened to WXXX" radio station promos, attempting to influence listener attribution. Arbitron-Nielsen immediately intervened and exacted a harsh penality for such 'ratings tampering.' Stations would receive a harsh warning letter ('cease and desist') from the attorneys (usually 'over night') and, if blatant and continued, Arbitron would list the station "below the line" when the book was published with a notation about the radio station's practices.

On the legitmate side of the influence coin, many stations, especially in major markets, did major contesting on Thursday in order to get a get foundation or jump start on diary mentions. Those "big money contest" days are over for the most part, but the theory still exists.

And then ... then there was Gordon Brown's WNIA and WSAY, which sometimes ran promos during rating sweeps that, paraphrasing, went something like, "The rating services are conducting surveys at this time, but we at WNIA (WSAY) don't rely on those surveys. We rely on our listeners to tell us how much they listen. This is why we know WNIA (WSAY) is one of the most listened-to radio stations in Buffalo and Western New York." Gordon Brown. Cheap as the day was long, and as iconoclastic and eccentric as they get.
 
Disagree. DE thoroughly explained the diary process earlier in this thread. Good primer.

IF S&R moved to WBUF and listeners wrote down "Shredd (or 'Shred') & Ragan (or 'Reagan')" or any viable variation, WBUF would get at least half and likely whole credit for the entry. It's been my observation that when personalities move (e.g., Dan Neaverth moving from KB to WHTT many years ago), the new radio station saturates the airwaves with "the new home of Dan Neaverth-type" promos and outside promotion, TV, billboards; these days it would be blasts on social media, etc.

I've had the experience of being a (legitimate) diary keeper. I was probably more diligent than most accounting for my listening and station changes, at least when at home. But also like most holders, I didn't fill it out the diary in my car while driving. In those cases, I guesstimated listening times later in the day like everybody else. "Let's see, I left for Home Depot at 8:10, got there at 8:20 and I listened to WXXX and WYYY ... then I drove home around 9:15 and ... of wait, I stopped at Wegman's ... what time was that ... around 9:25, yeah ... and then..." It's easy to see how the average diary listener 'rounds up' (or down) and guesstimates his/her listening. Any wonder program directors go gray earlier than most people?

Arbitron-Nielsen was (is) quite aware of this diary quirk. They also knew (know) that many diary keepers are not as precise with the start and end listening times, and despite the diary letter and diary utself exhorting listeners to keep a daily tab, some diary keepers fill out their diaries sporadically or, in some cases for the whole week on one day, just before it's to be mailed back to Nielsen.

DE may have a different take on this, but from what I have read and heard from radio pros, this often is the case. There was a time when program directors strongly advocated time checks around call letter-frequency mentions so listeners would get the correct time if and when they were keeping a diary.

This is where PPM is more precise than the diary method.

And then there were ... 70s and early 80s, IIRC ... the occasional "Dear diary, today I listened to WXXX" radio station promos, attempting to influence listener attribution. Arbitron-Nielsen immediately intervened and exacted a harsh penality for such 'ratings tampering.' Stations would receive a harsh warning letter ('cease and desist') from the attorneys (usually 'over night') and, if blatant and continued, Arbitron would list the station "below the line" when the book was published with a notation about the radio station's practices.

On the legitmate side of the influence coin, many stations, especially in major markets, did major contesting on Thursday in order to get a get foundation or jump start on diary mentions. Those "big money contest" days are over for the most part, but the theory still exists.

And then ... then there was Gordon Brown's WNIA and WSAY, which sometimes ran promos during rating sweeps that, paraphrasing, went something like, "The rating services are conducting surveys at this time, but we at WNIA (WSAY) don't rely on those surveys. We rely on our listeners to tell us how much they listen. This is why we know WNIA (WSAY) is one of the most listened-to radio stations in Buffalo and Western New York." Gordon Brown. Cheap as the day was long, and as iconoclastic and eccentric as they get.
Like a politician politicking for votes, any station should be able to pursuade and inform people that if they have a diary, “write down their station”. If Nielsen has the right to inform agencies of ratings that can be very inaccurate , the stations should have the right to try to politic their station.

Nielsen does not run the radio industry. FCC does. Those two have nothing to do with each other. I can tell you, being in the tv realm, that televisions electronic ratings are far more accurate than radios. They do not “weight” numbers based on who they “think” is listening.

I do not even see WNIA or WSAY in the Radioinsight rated stations.

Saga Broadcasting dumped ratings a long time ago, and they are fine with it.

A great broadcast company will sell clients direct, without ratings, but only results.
 
Like a politician politicking for votes, any station should be able to pursuade and inform people that if they have a diary, “write down their station”. If Nielsen has the right to inform agencies of ratings that can be very inaccurate , the stations should have the right to try to politic their station.

Nielsen does not run the radio industry. FCC does. Those two have nothing to do with each other. I can tell you, being in the tv realm, that televisions electronic ratings are far more accurate than radios. They do not “weight” numbers based on who they “think” is listening.

I do not even see WNIA or WSAY in the Radioinsight rated stations.

Saga Broadcasting dumped ratings a long time ago, and they are fine with it.

A great broadcast company will sell clients direct, without ratings, but only results.
When managers of a station or group sign a contract with Nielsen, the station or group is required to abide by the terms of the contract. Ratings do not come under the aegis of the FCC rules and regulations.

WNIA and WSAY are call letters no longer in play in Buffalo and Rochester, respectively. WNIA, on 1230 is now Oldies WECK. WSAY, on 1370 is now Public Radio WXXI. Both stations are eminently viable in their present formats.
 
Like a politician politicking for votes, any station should be able to pursuade and inform people that if they have a diary, “write down their station”.
That is known in the industry as "ratings distortion and bias" and one of the conditions for accreditation by the Media Ratings Council is control of attempts to bias survey results.


As Rusty said, stations sign contracts with Nielsen and commit to following a specific set of rules regarding on-air mentions of ratings and the use of the data they receive.
If Nielsen has the right to inform agencies of ratings that can be very inaccurate , the stations should have the right to try to politic their station.
You have no evidence or proof that ratings are "inaccurate". In fact, they are not. There is a margin of error in any study based on taking a sample and projecting it into the universe, and that is stated clearly in all Nielsen reports.

And the MRC, which was formed back in the early 60's after congressional investigations of ratings, protects advertisers. They do not allow ratings companies to tolerate ratings references on the air other than "Nielsen certified #1 in all of Ourtown!"
Nielsen does not run the radio industry. FCC does.
Neither do. Radio stations are run by their owners. The FCC regulates them. Just as you own your car (or your bank does until you finish paying) but the police regulate its use on the road and other government agencies regulate its emissions, tax liabilities, etc.

Own =/= Regulate
Those two have nothing to do with each other. I can tell you, being in the tv realm, that televisions electronic ratings are far more accurate than radios. They do not “weight” numbers based on who they “think” is listening.
And Nielsen does not weigh numbers significantly.

In the PPM markets, the panel should totally parallel the population on each of the stratification variables including age, gender, ethnicity, race, income, education, area of residence. Only tiny weighting should occur when there is panel turnover.

In the diary, which is a random probability sample and not a panel, during each rating period the recruiting for the remaining weeks is adjusted based on the qualified diaries that come back from the first weeks to try to have as true a sample as possible. However, if the end shows that Hispanic women 25-34 should be 16% of the total 25-34 sample but they only got 14% of the diaries from that group, each diary is weighted up by about 8%. Similarly, if they got 18% of diaries in that demo from Hispanic Women 25-34, every diary is proportionally weighted down.

There is no "who they think is listening". There is weighting to make the sample be a perfect mirror of the market.
I do not even see WNIA or WSAY in the Radioinsight rated stations.
Stations that don't show are likely not subscribed. Or, because they did not meet the minimum requirements for a 0.1 share. The two you mentioned, as Rusty stated, changed calls... some time ago... and are doing fine.
Saga Broadcasting dumped ratings a long time ago, and they are fine with it.
No, they dropped the Nielsen ratings in one or two markets where there was very little agency business. In the end, they signed a group deal. They never were without the ratings in most markets.

In markets without much agency business, ratings are not needed.
A great broadcast company will sell clients direct, without ratings, but only results.
That may work in some smaller markets. But in most of the larger markets most of your business... and most of the available business... comes from agencies. There are national, regional and even local agencies but if you are trying to be a reasonably good and high biller, you have to use ratings to sell to agencies.

One of my functions in market 14 (at the time) was for some years GSM for the #1 station which had a share that was double the #2 station for the two decades I was involved. 95% of our business came from the roughly 120 local ad agencies. There was no "good money" from direct accounts and we did not even have a local direct sales person as selling direct, under analysis, cost us money in lost agency business and wasted time.

Obviously you have never managed a major market station or been the sales manager for one.
 
IF S&R moved to WBUF and listeners wrote down "Shredd (or 'Shred') & Ragan (or 'Reagan')" or any viable variation, WBUF would get at least half and likely whole credit for the entry.
If S & R moved to WBUF and someone wrote their names in a Nielsen Diary, that station should get FULL credit. They would no longer be heard on 97 Rock.

I simply maintain that they aren't that important(except to themselves). 97 Rock fired (one long time guy quit) half the staff without any significant ratings decline. They are the Zeppelin and Free Bird station. That's all that matters to their listeners. WBUF has tried several attempts to copy the playlist with some variations. The ratings prove that nobody cares or wants another clone...
 
If S & R moved to WBUF and someone wrote their names in a Nielsen Diary, that station should get FULL credit. They would no longer be heard on 97 Rock.
To the best of my reading and awareness, IF Shredd & Ragan moved to WBUF and a diary respondent wrote "Shredd & Ragan 97 Rock" S&R / WBUF would get partial credit and 97 would receive partial credit. If the diary respondent wrote only "Shredd & Ragan," S&R (and WBUF) would get full credit. I stand by my post.
 
To the best of my reading and awareness, IF Shredd & Ragan moved to WBUF and a diary respondent wrote "Shredd & Ragan 97 Rock" S&R / WBUF would get partial credit and 97 would receive partial credit. If the diary respondent wrote only "Shredd & Ragan," S&R (and WBUF) would get full credit. I stand by my post.
Correct. A split entry such as "right person / wrong station" will be given partial credit to each station in proportion to each station's share in the previous survey period.
 
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