Your theory on why cumulus/ticket just sold 104.1?!

[rbrucecarter5]

I don't see it happening. The "Friends of WRR" would never let it happen.

Or so I keep hearing...

R

That is so true. Susquehanna/Service had a great plan to flip KRNB to 93.3, KDBN to 101.1 and WRR-FM to 105.7 and it got nowhere fast.

WRR is one of the true treasures of Dallas radio, an important asset to the community, proof that Dallas has deep cultural roots. Any sale would certainly cheapen the reputation of the city of Dallas. And what gross format would end up on the frequency? Hip-hop 101? El Spanish o 101? Country bumpkin 101? Death rock 101? Slob drunken sports 101? Trivial talk 101? This happened in Houston - KLEF was a cultural icon and has been utterly destroyed by commercial forces. It took decades for Houston get a full time classical station again, and the signal is not nearly as good. Once something this good and beneficial is gone, it is gone for good - never to return.

 

[Robert Bass]

WRR is also a real profit generator for Dallas, right?

R

 

[andydallas]

Classical is not a big money maker, of course the city owns has owned the station for decades, so obviously no debt service, so it makes money,,but the station is not billing anywhere close to what it would bill as another format.

There is a reason Classical stations are either on poor sticks (as someone mentioned in Houston) or non-profit (such as WFMT in Chicago),,,,it would be like the city owning a big section of land in downtown dallas, and instead of developing it with buildings, they just build a giant parking lot,,,,,,you make some money, but not what you could,,but that is the cities choice.

Nothing against WRR or the people there, I knew Greg well when he was there, but its a waste of a great signal if you want to look at it from a business perspective

 

[Ryan Williams]

WRR is also a real profit generator for Dallas, right?

R

No, small profit or break even. That's still better than most government-owned operations though.

 

[Sgt. Hans G. Schultz]

No, small profit or break even. That's still better than most government-owned operations though.

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You got that right!!! When the City of Allen bought the Chase Oaks golf course out of bankruptcy (90+% of it is in Plano but a very small portion on the north end lies in Allen), the number crunchers at city hall told everyone that worked at the golf course: losing only $200,000 to $250,000 a year would be an acceptable number!

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[salemjedi54]

I don't see it happening. The "Friends of WRR" would never let it happen.

Or so I keep hearing...

R

That is so true. Susquehanna/Service had a great plan to flip KRNB to 93.3, KDBN to 101.1 and WRR-FM to 105.7 and it got nowhere fast.

WRR is one of the true treasures of Dallas radio, an important asset to the community, proof that Dallas has deep cultural roots. Any sale would certainly cheapen the reputation of the city of Dallas. And what gross format would end up on the frequency? Hip-hop 101? El Spanish o 101? Country bumpkin 101? Death rock 101? Slob drunken sports 101? Trivial talk 101? This happened in Houston - KLEF was a cultural icon and has been utterly destroyed by commercial forces. It took decades for Houston get a full time classical station again, and the signal is not nearly as good. Once something this good and beneficial is gone, it is gone for good - never to return.

The idea was to put the Urban AC on 93.3, move the classical to 105.7 and at the time the classic rock to 101.1 So the City would still have an FM station, just not at 101.1. The Friends of WRR put the brakes to that idea quick fast and in a hurry.

 

[DavidEduardo]

Classical is not a big money maker, of course the city owns has owned the station for decades, so obviously no debt service, so it makes money,,but the station is not billing anywhere close to what it would bill as another format.

Good analysis.

WRR is somewhere, on average, below 30th in 25-54. And it bills around 28th to 30th historically.

At a bit above $3 million, average, in annual gross revenues over the last decade, it pales when compared with the $18 to $20 million range of stations like The Ticket, Kiss, WBAP, KLTY and KKDA.

Still, even if it has the somewhat cost-bloated expense model of some such stations, it should be returning a little surplus to the city each year. At one time, during the aborted sale, full figures were made public. Does anyone remember what the "surplus" (the way "profit" is apparently described in these cases) was at that time?

 

[DavidEduardo]

WRR is one of the true treasures of Dallas radio, an important asset to the community, proof that Dallas has deep cultural roots. Any sale would certainly cheapen the reputation of the city of Dallas. And what gross format would end up on the frequency? Hip-hop 101? El Spanish o 101? Country bumpkin 101? Death rock 101? Slob drunken sports 101? Trivial talk 101?

You just drove past interchange labeled "Reality" and are headed towards "Fantasy" instead.

The reason why so many classical operations have disappeared is that they don't generate revenues because what little audience is left is mostly over 60 or so. Even the public radio classical operations have moved to talk, as classical no longer sustains itself on donations in most places.

While I find your stereotyping of more mass appeal stations to be less than appropriate... terms like "bumpkin" and "slob" make you seem, at the very least, elitist... the fact is that with a limited number of OTA signals in any market, the ones that don't lift the load will not continue.

Fortunately, we have lots of alternatives for those niche and out-of-demo formats today. No listener is left behind.

 

[Mediafrog+]

WRR is one of the true treasures of Dallas radio, an important asset to the community, proof that Dallas has deep cultural roots. Any sale would certainly cheapen the reputation of the city of Dallas.

If WRR was to be sold, the Classical format would almost certainly quickly reappear elsewhere on DFW FM radio, most likely a non-comm. Might not be as good of a signal, but would still be a listening option.

I seriously doubt that radio formats have anything to do with the "reputation" of a city, at least amongst the non-radio-geek general public.

This happened in Houston - KLEF was a cultural icon and has been utterly destroyed by commercial forces.

It was the 1980's oil bust that sank KLEF, plus the fact that the move to the 2000' tower in 1983 did not result in any real improvement in the ratings.

It took decades for Houston get a full time classical station again

Uh, no. KLEF was quickly replaced by Classical music blocks on non-comm KUHF, expanding to 17 hours a day after a few months. And a second Classical option also quickly appeared full time with KLEF version 2.0 on 92.1, which later became KRTS, which had an 18 year run. And of course Houston now has full time Classical on non-comm KUHA.

I enjoy Classical music, but I also realize that it has severe demographic issues. A listener supported station might be the best place for the format.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

While I find your stereotyping of more mass appeal stations to be less than appropriate... terms like "bumpkin" and "slob" make you seem, at the very least, elitist... the fact is that with a limited number of OTA signals in any market, the ones that don't lift the load will not continue.

Fortunately, we have lots of alternatives for those niche and out-of-demo formats today. No listener is left behind.

I freely admit to have more refined tastes than a lot of listeners. Any classical listener will tell you the same, as will the listeners to smooth jazz, NPR, etc.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

Uh, no. KLEF was quickly replaced by Classical music blocks on non-comm KUHF, expanding to 17 hours a day after a few months. And a second Classical option also quickly appeared full time with KLEF version 2.0 on 92.1, which later became KRTS, which had an 18 year run. And of course Houston now has full time Classical on non-comm KUHA.

I enjoy Classical music, but I also realize that it has severe demographic issues. A listener supported station might be the best place for the format.

Well, I took a decades long break from Houston, I don't think 17 hours a day qualifies as full time classical, though. Certainly a lot better than no classical. KRTS was originally on a horrible stick - actually 92.1 was an array of rimshots broadcasting the same programming. I don't know how well that played out with synchronization. 92.1 started as "CD radio" - its only real selling point is they were playing the new format - CD- that sounded better. But it didn't last long. Now it looks like 92.1 has a pretty decent signal, but gospel and news aren't really making it in ratings. It will be interesting to see how the signal ends up. Probably another KSBJ satellite - maybe for NGEN if I had to venture a guess. Or EMF will put K-Love on it when nobody else will buy it.

 

[DavidEduardo]

I freely admit to have more refined tastes than a lot of listeners. Any classical listener will tell you the same, as will the listeners to smooth jazz, NPR, etc.

As someone with an acquired taste for "country bumpkin" music and who was raised in the home of a founder of the Cleveland symphony, I fail to find that classical music is superior or more refined than country.

In fact, classical was the pop music of it's primary era. And country is very much in the tradition of the balladeers who created stories of everyday life, dreams and loves going back for many, many centuries. Country and classical are magnificently different, but as one who has had the privilege of witnessing the Opry both at the Ryman and Opryland, I can say that those goose-bump moments of great music are not restricted to Beethoven or Respighi.

 

[chrocket87]

^ David, that's incredible that you grew up there. Out if curiosity, is that the University Circle neighborhood?

 

[DavidEduardo]

^ David, that's incredible that you grew up there. Out if curiosity, is that the University Circle neighborhood?

That's where the Symphony and Case Western Reserve are. I grew up about 10 blocks from the corner of Cedar and Lee, home to WJMO and FM sister, WCUY which were my personal "cultural centers". My father was one of the original organizers of the Symphony and he also founded the Garden Center (now the Cleveland Botanical Center), also in the University Circle area.

 

[salemjedi54]

While I find your stereotyping of more mass appeal stations to be less than appropriate... terms like "bumpkin" and "slob" make you seem, at the very least, elitist... the fact is that with a limited number of OTA signals in any market, the ones that don't lift the load will not continue.

Fortunately, we have lots of alternatives for those niche and out-of-demo formats today. No listener is left behind.

I freely admit to have more refined tastes than a lot of listeners. Any classical listener will tell you the same, as will the listeners to smooth jazz, NPR, etc.

But you cross the line when you trash others tastes by calling it bumpkin and slob music. I know you are a fan of the christian music format, and I love gospel. I dont like CCM at all. Does nothing for me, but I don't trash the format or listeners of that type of music. But you have talked bad about hip hop/black gospel/urban formats.

 

[salemjedi54]

Uh, no. KLEF was quickly replaced by Classical music blocks on non-comm KUHF, expanding to 17 hours a day after a few months. And a second Classical option also quickly appeared full time with KLEF version 2.0 on 92.1, which later became KRTS, which had an 18 year run. And of course Houston now has full time Classical on non-comm KUHA.

I enjoy Classical music, but I also realize that it has severe demographic issues. A listener supported station might be the best place for the format.

Well, I took a decades long break from Houston, I don't think 17 hours a day qualifies as full time classical, though. Certainly a lot better than no classical. KRTS was originally on a horrible stick - actually 92.1 was an array of rimshots broadcasting the same programming. I don't know how well that played out with synchronization. 92.1 started as "CD radio" - its only real selling point is they were playing the new format - CD- that sounded better. But it didn't last long. Now it looks like 92.1 has a pretty decent signal, but gospel and news aren't really making it in ratings. It will be interesting to see how the signal ends up. Probably another KSBJ satellite - maybe for NGEN if I had to venture a guess. Or EMF will put K-Love on it when nobody else will buy it.

News 92.1 may not be doing well in the ratings, but if its making budget and not being helped out by Majic 102 and 97.9 The Boxx, then its not going anywhere. From what I see, its billing better than Praise 92.1 did at its peak.

 

[andydallas]

Let's face it, in most cases (exceptions like WRR), radio is about return on investment, you find a format that can attract enough listeners so that advertisers want to reach those listeners.

I have, and this is no joke, been involved in Country, AC, Progressive Counry, Black Gospel, CHR, Horse radio (yes, it was all about horse racing),,and the list goes on,,,,there is some demand for just about any format,,I'm sure there are people in Dallas that would love to have all music from 1965, all of the time,,but guess what, there aren't enough of them to make it profitable

WRR is not run like most other commercial station, it is run like a non-profit station, which is fine, I have nothing against WRR, I enjoy listening to it from time to time, but from a business stand point it is not a good use of the signal.

And I agree with everyone that has stated, its fine to like whatever music/entertainment you like, but dont 'talk down' to people because they like something other than what you like. That is the true definition of a snob,,

 

[salemjedi54]

Maybe Cumulus is making a run at the Mavericks, and getting a better FM stick for KTCK is part of the plan.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

But you cross the line when you trash others tastes by calling it bumpkin and slob music. I know you are a fan of the christian music format, and I love gospel. I dont like CCM at all. Does nothing for me, but I don't trash the format or listeners of that type of music. But you have talked bad about hip hop/black gospel/urban formats.

Some of the lyrics in hip-hop and urban are racist, sexist (encouraging rape), glorifying drug use, etc. I have no use for lyrics like that. The style is amazing - there are a couple of Christian hip-hop outlets and I listen to the style all the time.

Black gospel is just plain irritating to me. Personal taste I know.

I've softened on country, since I now have a couple of friends who are pretty famous country artists. I will listen to them, but the style in general reminds me of growing up in a town dominated by country music radio, with only censored top-40 poorly done, and the rednecks who liked country music being less than pleasant to get along with.

As far as sports radio - the entire subject matter is a total bore to me. Religious zeal over a bunch of nothing that contributes no benefit to society or civilization whatsoever. But then - I watch NASCAR so I'm a hypocrite I suppose. When I hear sports radio, it is a bunch of people talking about players I've never heard of, playing games that consist mainly of standing around, spouting out specs and statistics that are over my head. NFL stands for "not for long" in my house. Never saw anything remotely interesting about it. I've been called gay for not being interested, but the girls are hot in figure skating and gymnastics so I'll watch that.

I don't know - its all personal taste I guess. We all have them - you have them, I have them. Best to agree to disagree and move on ---

 

[Bob E. Nelson]

Country and classical are magnificently different, but as one who has had the privilege of witnessing the Opry both at the Ryman and Opryland, I can say that those goose-bump moments of great music are not restricted to Beethoven or Respighi.

To topic drift for just a moment, as one who worked in Nashville country radio (WKDA and WSIX-FM) in the 70s, those goose bump moments were more frequent at the old Ryman downtown. The acoustics were great, the crowd was up close and it had a earthy, funky feel that came across on WSM.

I well remember the night that they started at the suburban venue at Opryland with then-President Richard Nixon on the piano. Sure, the new place was nice (and air conditioned for comfort) but all the soul was left downtown in spite of the circle of wood on the stage from the Ryman. The acoustics of the new place sounded "dead" and the interaction with the crowd became much more polite and less rowdy.

In particular, the great Marty Robbins had a lot of those goose-bump moments down at the old place when the numerous encores always delayed the start of Ernest Tubb's Midnight Jamboree. I remember Paul Hemphill (author of "The Nashville Sound") being interviewed on WNBC (maybe it was on Long John Nebel's show). Opryland was still in the planning stages but he predicted, rightly IMHO, that moving the Opry out of the Ryman would be a bad move.

And to put a cap on it...Opryland is now a shopping mall. <sigh> Fortunately, with the revival of downtown Nashville, a number of the Opry shows originate back at the Mother Church of Country Music.