Anyone using the procaster.i know they can't be syncronized like the rangemaster,but you could use the net to space units apart.any comments would be appreciated.
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PROCASTER VS RANGEMASTER
- Thread starter oldiesstation
- Start date
Non-synched transmitter operations will either have need to have maually-adjusted carrier frequency tweaks performed every few HOURS, even with both transmitters kept in similiar temp surroundings or be far enough seperated that it doesn't matter.
I don't know if the Procaster has a freq trimmer.
Someone with a cheap commuication receiver like a Sangean 803 with a BFO will zeo beat the carrier to an agreed-upon
local station, then tune to the Procaster frequency and zero-beat the Procaster's carrier frequency.
Any mismatch will turn up first as fades. As freq mismatch goes higher, there will be a tremelo effect, then "fuzzing out" as the
beat frequency between the two increases into the audio range of bass, eventually becoming a droning hum, etc.
The higher the mismatch goes, the higher the pitch goes. And the more any one listener can "hear" both transmitters, the worse it will be for them. You almost need to keep two such transmittters so far away from each other that the covergae DOES NOT overlap.
That can only minimize it. The carrier mixing and noise effectively created by it has a far greater area than does the useful reception area
of either signal.
So to really keep it sounding good for the most listeners, you coverage would need to be somewhat like the speaker grille pattern shown
in the background of the RI pages. Circles, representing the coverage area, with gaps to keep the non-synchronized carriers'
differing frequency from causing a beat note. This would also eliminate the need to keep the audio of both time-aligned, which probably isn't cheap or easy to do over the net.
Would you be running audio through IP over the net or using dedicated wiring?
If your area has two useful adjacent frequencies for Pt 15 AM, you would do better to set them 10kc apart, then the overlapping
is the "standard" 10kc whistle, and distance between the two transmitters almost makes no difference.
Frequency stability issues then only become a minor pitch change of a few Hz in a 10,000 Hz note, and will likely not be
heard at all.
How far apart were you hoping locate them?
I don't know if the Procaster has a freq trimmer.
Someone with a cheap commuication receiver like a Sangean 803 with a BFO will zeo beat the carrier to an agreed-upon
local station, then tune to the Procaster frequency and zero-beat the Procaster's carrier frequency.
Any mismatch will turn up first as fades. As freq mismatch goes higher, there will be a tremelo effect, then "fuzzing out" as the
beat frequency between the two increases into the audio range of bass, eventually becoming a droning hum, etc.
The higher the mismatch goes, the higher the pitch goes. And the more any one listener can "hear" both transmitters, the worse it will be for them. You almost need to keep two such transmittters so far away from each other that the covergae DOES NOT overlap.
That can only minimize it. The carrier mixing and noise effectively created by it has a far greater area than does the useful reception area
of either signal.
So to really keep it sounding good for the most listeners, you coverage would need to be somewhat like the speaker grille pattern shown
in the background of the RI pages. Circles, representing the coverage area, with gaps to keep the non-synchronized carriers'
differing frequency from causing a beat note. This would also eliminate the need to keep the audio of both time-aligned, which probably isn't cheap or easy to do over the net.
Would you be running audio through IP over the net or using dedicated wiring?
If your area has two useful adjacent frequencies for Pt 15 AM, you would do better to set them 10kc apart, then the overlapping
is the "standard" 10kc whistle, and distance between the two transmitters almost makes no difference.
Frequency stability issues then only become a minor pitch change of a few Hz in a 10,000 Hz note, and will likely not be
heard at all.
How far apart were you hoping locate them?
a group here was talking about doing something like am1650 does in Flagstaff.Small market operation,4 xmtrs should do it.should be able to use 1610,1620,1630 and 1640.spread em about 2 miles apart.Just talk now.may do internet(Barix) to network them.
Both the Procaster and the Rangemaster had be evaluated by HobbyBroadcaster.net and the reviews are available for public viewing on the site.
LowPayDJ said:Bill, I'm curious. If you had to buy one of the two, which one would you buy, and why?
Mind you, I probably have more broadcast engineering experience than many so this somewhat came into play when I made my decision:
I tested both the Rangemaster and Procaster. Both performed well and quite similarly as far as coverage. While the Procaster has built-in audio processing and tuning meter, the Rangemaster has things such as crystal frequency control standard (frequency agile is optional) and multiple transmitter synchronization ability.
I purchased the Rangemaster as it's higher Q tuning circuit is a more efficient design. While it may take a little longer to tune I believe the Rangemaster is the hands-down winner between the two. I also looked at the aspect that the Rangemaster uses standard ICs in sockets, which aid in any required repair and/or troubleshooting. The Procaster uses surface mounted devices which even experienced solderers may feel intimidated trying to remove or replace in the field. Also, while the Procaster can only modulate 100$, the Rangemaster can modulate upwards of 130% positive peak modulation. I have no problem and in fact prefer to use external audio processing so, at least to me, this is not an issue with the Rangemaster. I confirmed this with a loaned Motorola AM modulation monitor and my personal Belar mod monitor as well.
I'm actually working with a high school to build up an on-campus station. While the project is currently at a temporary stall due to budget and time constraints, I did buy them a Rangemaster for the campus AM station along with equipment to give them a campus-limited FM station.
I also have a Rangemaster at my home location for testing and experimenting with. It sounds as good as any commercial AM transmitter I've engineered, and I've worked on things from antique RCAs to solid state Harris rigs.
I have to agree with Bill. I don't own a ProCaster, but I have read favorable reviews. Its main advantage is that it's an "all-in-one" low power AM solution-- you don't really have to add an audio processing chain for basic operation. It would be great for an "event" radio station that you can set up in a few minutes to cover a park or arena.
On the other hand, I do own a Rangemaster, and it is a terrific unit! Audio quality is amazing-- it rivals the best AM signals I have heard. The carrier frequency is extremely stable. It is simple to tune and maintain. And the range is about the most you can expect for a Part 15 device. It's designed to be driven by a high quality audio system ,and has no built-in processing. That may be somewhat of a deterrent for the hobbyist user.
For a much lower cost approach, I highly recommend the SSTRAN AMT3000. While it can't equal the audio punch or range of the Rangemaster, it does work very well, and it is an all-in-one solution. You can deploy it with an add-on base loaded antenna for better range. If the built-in audio compressor is set up correctly, it can deliver a very clean sounding signal, and the carrier frequency is also quite stable. Definitely a winner in my book!
On the other hand, I do own a Rangemaster, and it is a terrific unit! Audio quality is amazing-- it rivals the best AM signals I have heard. The carrier frequency is extremely stable. It is simple to tune and maintain. And the range is about the most you can expect for a Part 15 device. It's designed to be driven by a high quality audio system ,and has no built-in processing. That may be somewhat of a deterrent for the hobbyist user.
For a much lower cost approach, I highly recommend the SSTRAN AMT3000. While it can't equal the audio punch or range of the Rangemaster, it does work very well, and it is an all-in-one solution. You can deploy it with an add-on base loaded antenna for better range. If the built-in audio compressor is set up correctly, it can deliver a very clean sounding signal, and the carrier frequency is also quite stable. Definitely a winner in my book!
SS TRAN NOT CERTIFIED.NICE 7 K FINE HERE.http://www.fcc.gov/eb/Orders/2007/DA-07-4570A1.html
Got to check out a procaster.pretty darn nice..a breeze to set up.you can use them in multiples by networking with barix units.
Got to check out a procaster.pretty darn nice..a breeze to set up.you can use them in multiples by networking with barix units.
Kits are fine with the FCC. LP Ryan was cited by the commission for a marketing violation. When one assembles a kit
for someone else he is not allowed to ship it.
If you are breaking FCC rules as a broadcaster, it doesn't matter if you have a type certified sticker or a plaque from
your State Broadcasters Association.
In Part 15, type certified effects the seller not the consumer. Read the FCC Rules on this.
for someone else he is not allowed to ship it.
If you are breaking FCC rules as a broadcaster, it doesn't matter if you have a type certified sticker or a plaque from
your State Broadcasters Association.
In Part 15, type certified effects the seller not the consumer. Read the FCC Rules on this.
Not sure about all that.I do know for LPFM you better have a FCC certified transmitter and it must have the sticker on the xmtr.i don;t mess with part 15 often, a group was asking me about it. i sure would not suggest the sstran,though.only rangemaster or procaster.
There are not any legal issues with using kits. In fact, a person is allowed to "home brew" their own transmitters up to a total of five. The FCC violation cited earlier in this thread lends itself to confusion as it was based on the individual marketing and assembling kit transmitters for sale, which is something specifically forbidden under FCC rules unless the transmitter is certified. Generally, kits are not certified but are allowed to operate under Part 15 regulations.
There are many people using the SSTran transmitter with great results and without problems. A Part 15 station near me currently operates with two Rangemasters and an SSTran with nice coverage in their targeted areas. No visiting field agents have bothered them since they are operating within the regulations.
A step between the the SSTran and the Procaster / Rangemaster is the ASPiSYS ASMAX-1 AM Stereo transmitter. I have one that we've used on the HobbyBroadcaster.net campus and it works wonderfully. I'm hoping that they will eventually seek to get it certified as there aren't any AM Stereo transmitters for Part 15 operators unless you can find one of the Chris Cuff transmitters which are since been discontinued. This transmitter has also been reviewed over on HobbyBroadcaster.net.
It is legal to operate a kit or a non-certified device under Part 15 as long as it doesn't cause interference and doesn't exceed the parameters stated in the rules for the given operating band.
There are many people using the SSTran transmitter with great results and without problems. A Part 15 station near me currently operates with two Rangemasters and an SSTran with nice coverage in their targeted areas. No visiting field agents have bothered them since they are operating within the regulations.
A step between the the SSTran and the Procaster / Rangemaster is the ASPiSYS ASMAX-1 AM Stereo transmitter. I have one that we've used on the HobbyBroadcaster.net campus and it works wonderfully. I'm hoping that they will eventually seek to get it certified as there aren't any AM Stereo transmitters for Part 15 operators unless you can find one of the Chris Cuff transmitters which are since been discontinued. This transmitter has also been reviewed over on HobbyBroadcaster.net.
It is legal to operate a kit or a non-certified device under Part 15 as long as it doesn't cause interference and doesn't exceed the parameters stated in the rules for the given operating band.
I'm very happy with my SStran. Don't know why oldiesstation doesn't like it.
For oldiesstation, one of the two assembled units is probably a better choice for what he wants to do. For the typical hobbyist doing "yardcasting", the SSTRAN is an excellent choice.
Bill, thanks for explaining the violation. When it comes to dealing with the FCC it seems that people are easily confused and misled, probably because for the most part they don't take the trouble to familiarize themselves with the actual RULES and spend the time to UNDERSTAND them. Thus, we have to revisit these technical and policy issues over and over again, not just on this board but on the others as well. It's unfortunate, but that's the way it is. :'(
Bill, thanks for explaining the violation. When it comes to dealing with the FCC it seems that people are easily confused and misled, probably because for the most part they don't take the trouble to familiarize themselves with the actual RULES and spend the time to UNDERSTAND them. Thus, we have to revisit these technical and policy issues over and over again, not just on this board but on the others as well. It's unfortunate, but that's the way it is. :'(
Whats Wrong with the SSTran?oldiesstation said:Not sure about all that.I do know for LPFM you better have a FCC certified transmitter and it must have the sticker on the xmtr.i don;t mess with part 15 often, a group was asking me about it. i sure would not suggest the sstran,though.only rangemaster or procaster.
Its a Rock solid Transmitter.
That's What I use And It works plenty well. Even though the Antenna is Inside it still goes at least a 1/2 mile
LibertyNT said:Whats Wrong with the SSTran?
Its a Rock solid Transmitter.
That's What I use And It works plenty well. Even though the Antenna is Inside it still goes at least a 1/2 mile
There is nothing wrong with the SSTran and for the budget-strapped would-be Part 15 operator. It may be a nice choice to get started into the hobby especially when you consider the alternatives like Ramsey. Mind you, however, if an interference complaint comes down the pike and the operator gets a visit from a field inspector they may have their own personal bias against kits verses assembled and certified transmitters.
Does this make the SSTran a bad choice? No, especially if one's budget is so tight that it would be the choice of the SSTran or nothing. It's just many who are more serious into the hobby would consider the Rangemaster or Procaster if they have the budget to purchase one. Granted, they are more expensive, but there's a reason, too. The Rangemaster already has enjoyed a superb track record for many years and time will tell with the Procaster as they start to enter the market.
Bill DeFelice said:Mind you, however, if an interference complaint comes down the pike and the operator gets a visit from a field inspector they may have their own personal bias against kits verses assembled and certified transmitters.
Bill, what is your basis for making this statement? Is it speculation or is there something on record to back it up?
We have and use both Procaster and Rangemaster, we have found each has their own nich in the way we use them. Our Procasters are used like the audioguy suggested; for special events like horse shows, high school football, little league games, real estate promotion and special event parking. While the Procaster does not quite have the range of a well tuned Rangemaster; it does allow for quick setup and use since it is all in one with a processor built in, it is almost "Plug N Play". The difference in coverage does not dramatically our use of the Procasters, as most of the radios are within a half mile. Like Bill said; the Procaster is surface mount and quick repair is out of the question in the field. Sound quality is acceptable for the type of programming we use them for, and I would not want to be dragging a thousand dollar audio processor around; you never know when your equipment might grow legs and walk off!
When it comes to permanent installations, it is the Rangemaster that gets put to use. While it takes a little effort a tweaked out Rangemaster will offer the greatest coverage and sound quality, although it won't come cheap, as AM processing is very expensive but worth the cost when it comes to results. If you want to be as loud as the best processed AM station in your market you are going to have to spend the money! Look at spending $3,000 to $4,000 per a remote Rangemaster site to do it right.
The Sstran, with a low price tag it is the choice of our students on a tight budget who want to get started in broadcasting on the cheap, and when coupled with our new helical wound antenna and a good ground; it will give the Rangemaster a run for the money when it comes to coverage. We get reports from people who use the Sstran with Carl's antenna with great results too.
And don't forget about Radio Systems AM transmitters, for carrier current operations or covering a large campus with a free radiating antenna. We use the Radio Systems AM transmitters in our carrier current operations to cover large apartment complexes and condo communities where intense EMI renders a part 15 AM signal useless, plus we have a greater choice in frequencies to use in the CC systems. Our Radio Campus has two frequencies in operation to cover the forty acre ranch, and provide a strong signal throughout. If you are stuck in a high rise apartment complex, then carrier current broadcasting is the best option.
Steve
www.outlawradio.us
Now "Do It Yourself Broadcasting"
When it comes to permanent installations, it is the Rangemaster that gets put to use. While it takes a little effort a tweaked out Rangemaster will offer the greatest coverage and sound quality, although it won't come cheap, as AM processing is very expensive but worth the cost when it comes to results. If you want to be as loud as the best processed AM station in your market you are going to have to spend the money! Look at spending $3,000 to $4,000 per a remote Rangemaster site to do it right.
The Sstran, with a low price tag it is the choice of our students on a tight budget who want to get started in broadcasting on the cheap, and when coupled with our new helical wound antenna and a good ground; it will give the Rangemaster a run for the money when it comes to coverage. We get reports from people who use the Sstran with Carl's antenna with great results too.
And don't forget about Radio Systems AM transmitters, for carrier current operations or covering a large campus with a free radiating antenna. We use the Radio Systems AM transmitters in our carrier current operations to cover large apartment complexes and condo communities where intense EMI renders a part 15 AM signal useless, plus we have a greater choice in frequencies to use in the CC systems. Our Radio Campus has two frequencies in operation to cover the forty acre ranch, and provide a strong signal throughout. If you are stuck in a high rise apartment complex, then carrier current broadcasting is the best option.
Steve
www.outlawradio.us
Now "Do It Yourself Broadcasting"
PhilB said:Bill DeFelice said:Mind you, however, if an interference complaint comes down the pike and the operator gets a visit from a field inspector they may have their own personal bias against kits verses assembled and certified transmitters.
Bill, what is your basis for making this statement? Is it speculation or is there something on record to back it up?
This is, at least partially based, on a past chat with a field agent documenting an interference complaint created by pirate FM broadcaster. When the subject of Part 15 AM came up it was stated that if the output was within the legal compliance it really didn't make much difference if it was a kit, homebrew or commercially produced unit. It was mentioned that some agents have seen so much illegal activity in their particular areas that the inspectors already have a preconceived notions no matter what kind of transmitter somebody has.
Bill DeFelice said:PhilB said:Bill DeFelice said:Mind you, however, if an interference complaint comes down the pike and the operator gets a visit from a field inspector they may have their own personal bias against kits verses assembled and certified transmitters.
Bill, what is your basis for making this statement? Is it speculation or is there something on record to back it up?
This is, at least partially based, on a past chat with a field agent documenting an interference complaint created by pirate FM broadcaster. When the subject of Part 15 AM came up it was stated that if the output was within the legal compliance it really didn't make much difference if it was a kit, homebrew or commercially produced unit. It was mentioned that some agents have seen so much illegal activity in their particular areas that the inspectors already have a preconceived notions no matter what kind of transmitter somebody has.
I tend to think every field agent will just address the Part 15 rules and not just their personal bias as what is illegal or not.
Two field agents from the Atlanta office stopped by my installation and had no reservations whatsover (my invite during their visit to Savannah), they saw no reason to think anything was wrong even though my transmitter was up ~30 feet high with the copper tube/coil up another ~3 meters... they had no problems with the ground wire issues as have been dealt here in the past... I feel as long as you are not broadcasting vulgar language, or indecent material (NAB should take notice) and it's not some transmitter installed 1000 feet high (ridiculus) then it doesn't matter whether it's a certified transmitter or the SSTRAN or any other transmitter that MEETS the Part 15 regs.
Try broadcasting indecent material on a 'certified' tranmitter and see how quick that installation will be taken down.
Radiopilot
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