Is there any chance that Alpha Media updates its signals to HD Radio?

[DaveBayArea]

Dave, why would you A/B 92.1 and 92.3? (Other than them being first adjacents)? They're completely different stations, different owners, different programming. 92.1 is KKDV, Alpha's Walnut Creek translator for KBAY's country music format. 92.3 is KSJO, airing a Punjabi Indian format. Totally unrelated. Am I missing something? Maybe you meant 92.1 and 94.5? Or if you really meant KKIQ and KUIC, those are 101.7 and 95.3.

I'm sooo confoosed...

Whoops. 92.1 and 94.5, of course. I corrected the post.

Dave B.

 

[DaveBayArea]

I don't think that's possible. Radio stations get digital music services provided directly from the labels. How they save and process that music locally might vary. But a radio station doesn't have to get a song from Spotify or YouTube. Seems to me there is no download function on YouTube.

No, there's not a download function built into YouTube. But there are several utilities that allow you to record the playback in real-time. The result is a clanky-swooshy sound, which is what I heard on some of the songs on 94.5. I agree that they should be getting promo files - especially for the popular country songs they're airing. You're right. It shouldn't be hard to get those cuts the usual way. I never thought about that. Maybe they're re-encoding them locally? I'm not sure, but at least on one afternoon two Sundays ago it was pretty obvious.

Dave B.

 

[TheBigA]

I'm not sure, but at least on one afternoon two Sundays ago it was pretty obvious.

If it was on the weekend, it could have been coming from someplace else or syndicated.

 

[MVB13]

That's interesting, because that is precisely the area where I find WFUV unlistenable due to the ping ponging effect between analog and HD -- unless you were just driving down the Palisades Parkway from the north, then over the George Washington Bridge before you reached the more populated NJ suburbs. There aren't really many buildings to get in the way of the signal up there.

I've found anything south of Fort Lee is a total writeoff for HD reception of that station, even if you are on top of the Palisades. In fact, reception of WFUV throughout most of the NJ suburbs is awful, and HD is no help, even less then five miles from the tower.

In West Milford by my parents the HD signal bounces for HD-2's for 92.3, 94.7, and 103.5, but I can get them all in HD.

 

[101.9 La Kalle]

Seems to me there is no download function on YouTube.

Yes, but there ARE YouTube URL to MP3 converter sites. Music piracy at it's finest.

 

[Radiopaw]

Another thing that I've noticed - overall power seems to make a difference. This is anecdotal, and doesn't make sense in a lot of ways, but when a 50,000-watt station runs 10 percent HD the analog-to-digital reception ratio seems to favor the digital compared to when a 2,000-watt station runs 10 percent HD. In Alpha's case it could mean that KKIQ and KUIC (both class-A's) wouldn't experience much of a difference.

Alpha's fundamental problem isn't HD or no HD. It's program source & audio chain. I was in the Oakland hills a few weeks ago and in that rare spot where you can get both 92.1 and 94.5. An A/B check revealed that they're not paying attention at all to processing and/or they're delivering a low-bandwidth stream to 92.1. The music quality varies from song to song, indicating they might be pulling some cuts from Spotify or youtube rips or ??? Just because it sounds good on your earbuds doesn't mean it's going to sound good on radio.

HD could sound good if there's only an HD-1 channel at 96k - no worries about pre-emphasis, no clipping, no real need to sound "loud" because there's no noise to overcome. But the emphasis has been on making the HD-1 and the analog sound the same so the transition isn't noticeable. So we get FM-processed audio on HD with maybe a bit more open pre-emphasis curve & less clipping. The difference is definitely not as drastic as it could be.

Dave B.

Not sure I can angree about overall power — 98.5 KUFX comes in magnitudes stronger in San Mateo then KEZR and KBAY which both operate at far higher power. KEZR also gets interference from KUDL in San Mateo County pretty often. Cuts out for it entirely. Frustratingly poor listening experience for a very close by station.

 

[Mark Roberts]

Dave, why would you A/B 92.1 and 92.3? (Other than them being first adjacents)? They're completely different stations, different owners, different programming. 92.1 is KKDV, Alpha's Walnut Creek translator for KBAY's country music format. 92.3 is KSJO, airing a Punjabi Indian format. Totally unrelated. Am I missing something? Maybe you meant 92.1 and 94.5? Or if you really meant KKIQ and KUIC, those are 101.7 and 95.3.

I'm sooo confoosed...

Dave was comparing 92.1 and 94.5, presumably to see how the sound quality of KKDV signal compared to that of KBAY. I'm also assuming he found a spot where he was line-of-sight with both stations. I would expect that to be on the top of the ridge - sometimes but not always Skyline Boulevard or Grizzly Peak Boulevard. Where I had lived, KBAY didn't come in particularly well and KKDV was practically absent. You really had to be at the top to get KKDV and that was above Skyline in Piedmont Pines.

 

[Kelly A]

Dave was comparing 92.1 and 94.5, presumably to see how the sound quality of KKDV signal compared to that of KBAY. I'm also assuming he found a spot where he was line-of-sight with both stations. I would expect that to be on the top of the ridge - sometimes but not always Skyline Boulevard or Grizzly Peak Boulevard. Where I had lived, KBAY didn't come in particularly well and KKDV was practically absent. You really had to be at the top to get KKDV and that was above Skyline in Piedmont Pines.

None of this matters to average consumers and radio listeners, that includes fringe areas or unusual coverage caused by intermittent atmospheric conditions.

 

[Signal Geek]

KEZR also gets interference from KUDL in San Mateo County pretty often. Cuts out for it entirely. Frustratingly poor listening experience for a very close by station.

Never quite understood how the FCC allowed two Class B stations on the same 106.5 and 98.5 frequencies, only about 75 miles apart (Sacramento & San Jose). Yes, I know some low mountains are in between. But as many people on this board have pointed out, the signals fight each other out in a number of Bay Area locations.

 

[Radiopaw]

Never quite understood how the FCC allowed two Class B stations on the same 106.5 and 98.5 frequencies, only about 75 miles apart (Sacramento & San Jose). Yes, I know some low mountains are in between. But as many people on this board have pointed out, the signals fight each other out in a number of Bay Area locations.

Haven't encountered 98.5 fighting with another. The listening experience for 98.5 vs 106.5 made me think 98.5 was operating from twice as much power! It does so much better with bay area terrain. I do really wonder if the height difference or the HD is the one here. EIther way, Alpha probably could snag out more market share from both stations if they were better engineered but I assume their resources are just much worse.

 

[DaveBayArea]

None of this matters to average consumers and radio listeners, that includes fringe areas or unusual coverage caused by intermittent atmospheric conditions.

For anyone who cares - Mt. Diablo. I have to agree it doesn't matter to average consumers. But the OP was talking about audio quality and linking it to the presence or absence of HD Radio.

Dave B.

 

[Daryl Lynn L.A.]

Dave was comparing 92.1 and 94.5, presumably to see how the sound quality of KKDV signal compared to that of KBAY. I'm also assuming he found a spot where he was line-of-sight with both stations. I would expect that to be on the top of the ridge - sometimes but not always Skyline Boulevard or Grizzly Peak Boulevard. Where I had lived, KBAY didn't come in particularly well and KKDV was practically absent. You really had to be at the top to get KKDV and that was above Skyline in Piedmont Pines.

Two questions:

1. I don't understand the difference between a translator and a simulcast ( yes, I did look it up in order to avoid bothering people here, but I still don't get it).

2. Did 92.1 KKDV undergo a reduction in power? I'm not near Skyline Blvd., but I am on top of a ridge in the East Bay, and KKDV constantly fades in and out. It's impossible to get a clear signal. Before they became a simulcast for KBAY, ( or a translator), it seems, IMO that they had a lot more power. Were they told to reduce power?
Thank you, and I appreciate everyone for helping me to learn. As always, this is JMO. -- D.

 

[drt]

Overall coverage, maybe not, but at -10 dBc (the 10% of analog power level that is the maximum the FCC allows), current transmitters and encoders put out a signal that's very usable out to any given station's protected analog contour. The original -20 (1%) level was indeed way too low, but -10 tracks very closely to useful analog coverage.

A lot of the complaints of HD fading out before analog or ping-ponging back and forth were real problems in earlier generations of HD equipment, but they are problems that have been largely solved by higher power levels and better encoding. I suspect many who still repeat those complaints haven't driven around a major market using newer generations of transmission.

Any of the bigger players, whether it's iHeart or Audacy or Cumulus or public radio*, uses -10 dBc HD as a standard part of any new build or upgrade. I can't think of the last time I saw a large-market station do a build without current HD.)

((*yes, Paul, we know your particular NPR station will never...))

I have a 2021 Toyota with the JBL HD radio and I concur with Scott Fybush; no ping-ponging effect between HD1 and analogue, it not noticeable , and fortunately several of the HD2 stations I listen to out of the Orlando and St Pete/Tampa markets have very strong HD2 signals. (I’m guessing they have the max 10% power).

 

[Weiserguy]

Two questions:

1. I don't understand the difference between a translator and a simulcast ( yes, I did look it up in order to avoid bothering people here, but I still don't get it).

A simulcast is where a program source is broadcast, simultaneously, over two or more stations, translators, repeaters, streams, whatever. For example, KQED/88.5 in San Francisco and KQEI/89.3 in Sacramento are simulcasts. So are KCBS/740 and KFRC/106.9. In fact, any NPR, CBS or ABC top-of-hour newcast running on multiple stations at the same time is being simulcast. Same for Morning Edition and All Things Considered. Multiple stations airing the same program source at the same time is a simulcast.

A translator is a relatively small, low-power transmitter that rebroadcasts a primary station's programming onto a different frequency. (You didn't ask, but there are also repeaters, which serve a similar purpose, only they retransmit the station's signal onto the same frequency as a station's base frequency, for use in areas where reception would otherwise be difficult due to terrain issues like shadowing.)

If a translator retransmits the primary station's main channel (their analog programming), that is a simulcast. However, if the translator is shifting the station's HD2 or HD3 channel onto an otherwise unused FM frequency, that's not a simulcast.

2. Did 92.1 KKDV undergo a reduction in power? I'm not near Skyline Blvd., but I am on top of a ridge in the East Bay, and KKDV constantly fades in and out. It's impossible to get a clear signal. Before they became a simulcast for KBAY, ( or a translator), it seems, IMO that they had a lot more power. Were they told to reduce power?
Thank you, and I appreciate everyone for helping me to learn. As always, this is JMO. -- D.

KKDV is a simulcast, but it's not a translator or repeater. It's an independently licensed FM station at 92.1. Typically, when a station is tasked with simulcasting the programming of another station, that station doesn't reduce power. The thinking would be that a listener should go with whichever of the simulcast partners gives them the best reception, since that would result in the longest time spent listening. (Because nobody wants to stay with a weak, or noisy, or fading, or generally a poor quality signal.)

If you're in the primary reception area for 92.1's signal and you're experiencing fading, I'd suggest fiddling with your radio antenna to see if a different location or orientation might yield better results. But the station's programming, whatever it might be, shouldn't affect that.

 

[semoochie]

Not quite - KINK's HD signal and 102.9 translator were already there prior to the sale, simulcasting KXTG 750. Once 96.3 was sold, Alpha broke the simulcast and flipped the HD2 channel and translator to We 102.9, while 750 dropped any mention of 102.9 and continued with its sports format.

I first received KINK-HD and 102.9 inside my Portland hotel room back in 2018, the year before 96.3 was sold. Digital Notification filed by KINK dates to 2014.

Your response just blows me away! Here's the way I remember it: We96.3 was sold to WayFM. I thought at the time that "We" might replace either KXL-FM(News/Talk)or KINK(AAA), both upper demo stations.(I took a lot of flak about that.) Suddenly, KINK had an HD and right after that, added an HD2 to feed 102.9, previously being fed by KXTG. I've had "false memories" before but they're always about events from decades ago and this seems way too recent for that! If KINK intended to have HD as far back as 2014, why do you suppose that Alpha hasn't done the same with its other Portland stations?

 

[Mark Roberts]

A simulcast is where a program source is broadcast, simultaneously, over two or more stations, translators, repeaters, streams, whatever. For example, KQED/88.5 in San Francisco and KQEI/89.3 in Sacramento are simulcasts. So are KCBS/740 and KFRC/106.9. In fact, any NPR, CBS or ABC top-of-hour newcast running on multiple stations at the same time is being simulcast. Same for Morning Edition and All Things Considered. Multiple stations airing the same program source at the same time is a simulcast.

A translator is a relatively small, low-power transmitter that rebroadcasts a primary station's programming onto a different frequency. (You didn't ask, but there are also repeaters, which serve a similar purpose, only they retransmit the station's signal onto the same frequency as a station's base frequency, for use in areas where reception would otherwise be difficult due to terrain issues like shadowing.)

Mostly this explanation is good, but an on-channel repeater is normally referred to as a booster.

 

[dxsphere]

Your response just blows me away! Here's the way I remember it: We96.3 was sold to WayFM. I thought at the time that "We" might replace either KXL-FM(News/Talk)or KINK(AAA), both upper demo stations.(I took a lot of flak about that.) Suddenly, KINK had an HD and right after that, added an HD2 to feed 102.9, previously being fed by KXTG. I've had "false memories" before but they're always about events from decades ago and this seems way too recent for that!

KINK-HD1 TOTH ID recorded 18 August 2018:

/ I don't know how far back KINK had HD but the Digital Notification was filed in 2014 (though this doesn't necessarily mean they were in HD this far back; I've seen stations file these with no evidence of an active HD signal). For all we know, KINK could have just turned on HD for the first time hours before I got into Portland that day.

If KINK intended to have HD as far back as 2014, why do you suppose that Alpha hasn't done the same with its other Portland stations?

From what I've seen, Alpha isn't really all that big on HD, usually adding HD to only a single station in each market - if they do it at all. I have not seen a market yet where Alpha has more than one station transmitting in HD.

Current active Alpha HD stations as of 12/2023:
Amarillo, TX - 102.9 KVWE
Columbia, SC - 93.5 WARQ
Fredericksburg, VA - 93.3 WFLS
Palm Springs, CA - 92.7 KKUU
Portland, OR - 101.9 KINK
San Antonio, TX - 94.1 KTFM
Wenatchee, WA - 104.7 KKRV

WARQ, WFLS, KINK and KKRV feed translators (sometimes multiple); WARQ-HD3 is leased to another broadcaster.

 

[Radiopaw]

Also 92.3 KSJO operating at far, far less height and power comes in magnitudes cleared and stronger than KEZR and KBAY today in San Bruno. What is going on with these Alpha signals? Why do they have so much static?

 

[Brian Bowers]

I've worked for Alpha. In my experience, and the Alpha markets I worked in, they rarely even made sure their analog transmitters were kept updated. Updating studio equipment was not much better with Alpha. Night and day difference between working for them (when it came to engineering) and Saga. I really do think some stations (and station groups) are barely getting by these days. Alpha also really missed the boat on scoring some translator frequencies in the markets I worked, which were quickly scooped up by other local radio stations.

 

[Mark Roberts]

Also 92.3 KSJO operating at far, far less height and power comes in magnitudes cleared and stronger than KEZR and KBAY today in San Bruno. What is going on with these Alpha signals? Why do they have so much static?

All three are on Coyote Peak, so it's probably not the location.