Entercom's alternative experiment not a success?

[tall_guy1]

If you don't know, this September, Entercom "streamlined" their alternative stations across the country. Doing so, they eliminated many local djs and voicetracked others in different markets. They also eliminated the work of local djs and had regional managers do work on their playlists. So far, the 6+ numbers don't paint a pretty picture since the beginning of it. Here are some results:
Seattle 3.9- 2.3
Dallas 2.0- 1.2
Las Vegas 2.6- 1.7
Portland stayed the same at 2.8.
KC rose 2.1- 3.1 (for some reason, though they still have lazlo.)
In general it looks like those are some pretty big drops. How much longer do you think this experiment will last?

 

[TheBigA]

In general it looks like those are some pretty big drops. How much longer do you think this experiment will last?

I don't think anything will change until the financial picture changes. They simply don't have money to hire more staff, especially in a format that isn't a big money-maker to begin with. The main thing this format gets them is sponsorship opportunities with live music events. Since those are all on hold right now, the main motivation is missing.

I think it might help to broaden the picture a bit beyond Entercom. Several iHeart stations in the Alt format also took similar hits in the ratings for December. In particular KYSR Los Angeles.

 

[kp2780]

The biggest issue with the Entercom's "Alternative" formats is that they are programmed for people who don't really like current Alternative music. They rely on a small list of safe pop sounding songs for new music, and a predictable list safe old songs as well. They need to stop trying to attract listeners who don't like the format, it's a recipe for failure. The predictable response to this is that new Alternative music does not "test well." This argument is a part of endless cycle of relying on the same tired formula because that's all that "works," yet it does not really work. Take a risk, play new music and the payoff will be months/years from now when the audience is actually familiar with new artists and songs. I don't think radio as safe "background music" like an AC station works for Alternative, yet that's how Entercom programs the stations.

There is plenty of new Alternative music that does not sound "weird" or "too indy." Anyone who is even a casual fan of the genre knows this.

 

[TheBigA]

The biggest issue with the Entercom's "Alternative" formats is that they are programmed for people who don't really like current Alternative music.

It depends on which station you're talking about because most of the music is programmed locally. KROQ in LA is playing a larger number of currents, and it's almost killed their audience.

One of the problems with rock music right now is some alt sounds pop, and some alt sounds active rock. So you stand a chance that if you play the rockier alt, it will take audience from active rock stations. The other problem is that the driving force behind alternative music is the live show, and when you pull that rug out, the house of cards falls.

 

[kp2780]

I was mainly talking about KROQ and WNYL, since those are the only two stations I've listened to lately. While those stations play more currents than the previous version of KROQ and the other ALT stations I've heard over the past few years, it's a narrow set of currents and a lot of repetition of the same older songs. It's an underwhelming playlist for someone who is a fan of the genre. It is good in small doses but if I really like Alternative music, I'm going to look elsewhere, so at best it is a station I'd listen to as a third or fourth option.

I'll admit that the challenge with the format is that it's questionable how much mass appeal there really is with Alternative. It seems to be one of the more challenging music formats to program for the reasons you have stated. As someone who is right in the middle of the target demo for the format, I can say that the commercial versions of the format that I've heard over the past few years don't appeal to me much. I am in Boston where we don't even have a ALT station anymore, and the most recent one that we had was the saddest excuse for the format I've ever heard (sample playlist: four 90s grunge songs, one "new" song that is five months old, a 2010 era ALT song, then repeat.) The station changed formats and now plays jockless pop rock from the late 80s and 90s mainly I think.

 

[TheBigA]

It's an underwhelming playlist for someone who is a fan of the genre.

As I've often said, radio isn't in the music distribution business. That's best done by streaming services where you can build your own playlist, and subscribe to the particular groups of discovery playlists they create that suit your taste. What these stations are trying to do is create a combination of new releases and popular gold that will attract a consensus audience. It's possible that this genre simply doesn't have a group of consensus songs or artists that can work for a mass appeal radio station.

The question posed by the OP in this thread has to do with the replacement of local talent with regional or national hosts, and I'm not seeing consistent information on that subject. Perhaps what you're saying is the music isn't good enough to replace the loss of local talent. And the new replacements haven't created enough of a reason for people to tune in.

 

[tall_guy1]

96.5 the buzz (krbz) in kc used to play a lot of new music that I think would appeal to a lot of alternative fans before it got "streamlined" like little hurt-alaska, ashe-save myself, chris cornell-patience and other songs. Coincidentally, that market's numbers improved afterwards, but I think maybe some of the songs they used to play could be tried in other markets where the "new" format isn't working.

 

[tall_guy1]

It looks like the new ratings came out, with krbz in kc down from 3.1- 2.5 this month. Even in kc, people are getting tired of the new format. Orlando fell 3.0- 2.0. Looks like a freefall across the board.

 

[TheBigA]

It looks like the new ratings came out, with krbz in kc down from 3.1- 2.5 this month. Even in kc, people are getting tired of the new format. Orlando fell 3.0- 2.0. Looks like a freefall across the board.

So are you saying these drops are because of the changes in personalities or music?

Because as I said, the alt ratings drop isn't confined to Entercom stations.

KYSR-FM

Alternative

iHeartMedia

2.3

2.3

2.7

2.2

 

[tall_guy1]

As I've often said, radio isn't in the music distribution business. That's best done by streaming services where you can build your own playlist, and subscribe to the particular groups of discovery playlists they create that suit your taste. What these stations are trying to do is create a combination of new releases and popular gold that will attract a consensus audience. It's possible that this genre simply doesn't have a group of consensus songs or artists that can work for a mass appeal radio station.

So are you saying these drops are because of the changes in personalities or music?

Because as I said, the alt ratings drop isn't confined to Entercom stations.

KYSR-FM

Alternative

iHeartMedia

2.3

2.3

2.7

2.2

It might be a bit of both, but I have a hunch the music changes and style have something to do with it. I don't think the songs they picked out, which permeate all the stations like machine gun kelly and 24kg are the best route to take, with kc being the possible exception. Some markets might work better with a more indie sound, while others might work better with a more classic alternative sound. I don't think their one-size fits all approach is working.

 

[TheBigA]

I don't think their one-size fits all approach is working.

But it isn't "one size fits all." KC has different personalities and different music than New York, for example. And as I pointed out, alt stations owned by competitors also experienced a ratings drop.

Perhaps the genre itself has lost audience, and radio is simply the canary in the coal mine.

 

[macattack]

But it isn't "one size fits all." KC has different personalities and different music than New York, for example. And as I pointed out, alt stations owned by competitors also experienced a ratings drop.

Perhaps the genre itself has lost audience, and radio is simply the canary in the coal mine.

Three of the most successful Alternatives at the moment are KPNT in St. Louis, WXDX in Pittsburgh, and WBUZ in Nashville and they're doing 5.4, 4.3 and 4.0 respectively (tho Nashville has yet to post ratings for December). Perhaps the pendulum is swinging back towards a mix of active rock and indie like it was from 1993-2012? WEND in Charlotte also got a small uptick when they switched things up to be more like WXDX (a mix of indie and active).

 

[DavidEduardo]

So are you saying these drops are because of the changes in personalities or music?

Because as I said, the alt ratings drop isn't confined to Entercom stations.

KYSR-FM

Alternative

iHeartMedia

2.3

2.3

2.7

2.2

Those numbers, however, are well within the margin of error for stations in that share range. In fact, the 2.7 looks like a "kiss" on the high side and the station, otherwise, is quite consistent.

 

[DavidEduardo]

It might be a bit of both, but I have a hunch the music changes and style have something to do with it. I don't think the songs they picked out, which permeate all the stations like machine gun kelly and 24kg are the best route to take, with kc being the possible exception. Some markets might work better with a more indie sound, while others might work better with a more classic alternative sound. I don't think their one-size fits all approach is working.

Remember, stations that have shared morning shows or voice tracked talents in other dayparts do their own local music logs. While corporate programmers may work to try to make sure the right songs are played, this is not the old Lou Dickie kind of standardization. Entercom, with all its current country and alt failings in ratings, does not network the whole thing... workparts are assembled locally.

I tend to thing that the alt issue is more related to the music itself... it continues to fragment and is becoming what may end up being only a streaming format with each provider offering several different blends.

 

[TheBigA]

Those numbers, however, are well within the margin of error for stations in that share range. In fact, the 2.7 looks like a "kiss" on the high side and the station, otherwise, is quite consistent.

If those are within the margin of error, that suggests these are too:

KRBZ-FM

Alternative

Entercom

2.1

2.7

3.1

2.5

 

[macattack]

Remember, stations that have shared morning shows or voice tracked talents in other dayparts do their own local music logs. While corporate programmers may work to try to make sure the right songs are played, this is not the old Lou Dickie kind of standardization. Entercom, with all its current country and alt failings in ratings, does not network the whole thing... workparts are assembled locally.

I tend to thing that the alt issue is more related to the music itself... it continues to fragment and is becoming what may end up being only a streaming format with each provider offering several different blends.

I've noticed that the entire Entercom Alternative network is effectively syndicated from 7p-6a every day. Same DJs, same music, all synced to WNYL's playlist. What you're saying is true for the other hours (and each station does seem to have one locally-based DJ of some sort), but there is a substantial amount of time where everything is basically WNYL.

I think Entercom's push towards a pop base for the format is accelerating the fragmentation you're talking about. WNYL in New York and KPNT in St. Louis are barely sharing more than a current or two between them. Hell, WNYL is barely sharing more than a few songs with KROX in Austin or KFRR in Fresno. They might as well be in their own world at this point. But Entercom's stations make up almost a third of the Billboard Alternative panel so WNYL's choices in particular (thanks to the 7p-6a syndication) tends to have an enormous amount of weight in what's charting right now, and this caused a massive purge of songs from the chart in October due to all of the Entercoms having to play what WNYL is.

Entercom is also what is single-handedly blocking Royal Blood and Foo Fighters from the top 5 on the Alt chart as well. This consolidation and erecting brick walls to potential hit songs are going to affect careers. Foo Fighters have had plenty of Alt hits and remain well-known, they'll be fine even if Entercom leads a charge to boot them from the format, but a rising artist like Royal Blood is going to suffer potentially career-altering consequences. It's worrisome.

 

[TheBigA]

Perhaps the pendulum is swinging back towards a mix of active rock and indie like it was from 1993-2012? WEND in Charlotte also got a small uptick when they switched things up to be more like WXDX (a mix of indie and active).

Perhaps, but you seem to be suggesting that iHeart program all of their alt stations like Pittsburgh. Isn't that applying the one-size-fits-all approach?

 

[macattack]

Perhaps, but you seem to be suggesting that iHeart program all of their alt stations like Pittsburgh. Isn't that applying the one-size-fits-all approach?

You seem to have me confused for the guy who has been discussing the "one size fits all" approach. I was not talking about one size fits all, more about the fragmentation of the format, the declining ratings of many Alts (and who seems to be defying that trend), and where the music is potentially going.

 

[TheBigA]

I was not talking about one size fits all, more about the fragmentation of the format, the declining ratings of many Alts (and who seems to be defying that trend), and where the music is potentially going.

So let me get this straight: To counter music fragmentation, radio groups should program music in a unified, national way, as long as that way is what is being done in Pittsburgh? Even though Pittsburgh is socially and culturally different from many other cities.

Entercom is also what is single-handedly blocking Royal Blood and Foo Fighters from the top 5 on the Alt chart as well. This consolidation and erecting brick walls to potential hit songs are going to affect careers.

Keep in mind that artists and labels have a major stake in the music charts too, and they have recourse if they feel an artist is being black-balled.

 

[macattack]

So let me get this straight: To counter music fragmentation, radio groups should program music in a unified, national way, as long as that way is what is being done in Pittsburgh? Even though Pittsburgh is socially and culturally different from many other cities.


Keep in mind that artists and labels have a major stake in the music charts too, and they have recourse if they feel an artist is being black-balled.

Why are you putting words in my mouth? I am not the guy you've been spending most of this thread arguing with, and I am not suggesting anything of what you're accusing me of saying. If it is coming off that way to you I apologize but this is not the argument I was making.

I am definitely not saying stations should program like they're in St. Louis, Pittsburgh, or Nashville. At best, I am suggesting that the pop-leaning Alternatives are going to have to start programming more rock - but that does not mean playing I Prevail or Architects either. You have to figure out what your market wants to hear. I am beginning to think that the audience wants more guitars on the format, but what that's going to sound like is beyond my ability to guess. I also think alt-soul is going to be big in the 2020s - but it wouldn't be the first time Alternative has had three genres on the format at once (the 2000's rolled with alternative/nu-metal, indie rock, and alternative rap all at once, for example). So there's multiple directions to lean in - and at least Entercom has been paying alt-soul lip service so if things do tilt that direction they'll be prepared.

Well, if I were handling Royal Blood or Foo Fighters, or an number of the other artists who are being screwed over (or have been screwed over), I would be exploring recourse because a blackballing is definitely going on.