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Commercial College/University stations
- Thread starter DougD
- Start date
Re: Commercial College/University stations
Probably the reporter doesn't understand the FCC allocations system. It doesn't matter where you move a NCE license on the dial, it has to remain a NCE. It can't just become a commercial station; commercial stations are created when someone petitions the FCC to add an allocation on a given frequency to a given community. Assuming the petition meets the various requirements, an auction is set up and the allocation is auctioned off to the highest bidder. That winner then has the right to request a CP for a new station that meets the requirements/limitations of the allocation, and assuming they do so within the alloted 36 months, they are granted a license to cover.
Similarly, as many have learned from the WFNX sale to Clear Channel, you cannot simply delete a commercial allocation once it has been created. I suppose in theory the FCC can do that, but the license holder cannot. They can only turn in/delete their LICENSE, at which point the allocation gets recycled and is auctioned off again during the next auction.
WREK, even if it could move out of the reserved band (87.9 - 91.9) it would still be a non-comm, although if it did move into the non-reserved band (92.1 to 107.9) then it would have to meet the minimum distance separations just like all the other commercial stations. That's likely going to be very hard, if not impossible, to do in a major market like Atlanta. IIRC, WOMR had problems trying to do it when they moved from 91.9 to 92.1 out in Provincetown (Cape Cod)...I think, and my memory's real fuzzy on this, that they convinced the FCC that any interference to any adjacent-channel commercial stations would be over water, and that moving would reduce the substantial co-channel interference they were getting from, and giving to, other 91.9 stations in Boston and Falmouth.
Probably the reporter doesn't understand the FCC allocations system. It doesn't matter where you move a NCE license on the dial, it has to remain a NCE. It can't just become a commercial station; commercial stations are created when someone petitions the FCC to add an allocation on a given frequency to a given community. Assuming the petition meets the various requirements, an auction is set up and the allocation is auctioned off to the highest bidder. That winner then has the right to request a CP for a new station that meets the requirements/limitations of the allocation, and assuming they do so within the alloted 36 months, they are granted a license to cover.
Similarly, as many have learned from the WFNX sale to Clear Channel, you cannot simply delete a commercial allocation once it has been created. I suppose in theory the FCC can do that, but the license holder cannot. They can only turn in/delete their LICENSE, at which point the allocation gets recycled and is auctioned off again during the next auction.
WREK, even if it could move out of the reserved band (87.9 - 91.9) it would still be a non-comm, although if it did move into the non-reserved band (92.1 to 107.9) then it would have to meet the minimum distance separations just like all the other commercial stations. That's likely going to be very hard, if not impossible, to do in a major market like Atlanta. IIRC, WOMR had problems trying to do it when they moved from 91.9 to 92.1 out in Provincetown (Cape Cod)...I think, and my memory's real fuzzy on this, that they convinced the FCC that any interference to any adjacent-channel commercial stations would be over water, and that moving would reduce the substantial co-channel interference they were getting from, and giving to, other 91.9 stations in Boston and Falmouth.
Re: Commercial College/University stations
In today's world of clustered properties, there is nothing (aside from money) stopping Tech from buying a commercial FM and operating it commercially. And if they wanted to move the WREK calls to that commercial channel, the commission would grant the application.
Or if GT bought a commercial channel and wanted to operate it non-commercially, all they would need to do is apply for a change and it would be granted. Hell, there is nothing stopping any of us who operate commercial FM stations from operating non-commercially, at any time.
Just don't sell any commercials.
In today's world of clustered properties, there is nothing (aside from money) stopping Tech from buying a commercial FM and operating it commercially. And if they wanted to move the WREK calls to that commercial channel, the commission would grant the application.
Or if GT bought a commercial channel and wanted to operate it non-commercially, all they would need to do is apply for a change and it would be granted. Hell, there is nothing stopping any of us who operate commercial FM stations from operating non-commercially, at any time.
Just don't sell any commercials.
Re: Commercial College/University stations
Part of the problem with WESU was of course the student turn around, things were pretty well handled for many years but along comes a time when most of those who knew what needed to be done all graduated at once and left nothing behind to help along the new board of directors. Things like filing a license renewal; I remember it stated clearly the license was up in April 1991 (I left 2 years before that), filing Taxes and renewing the non-profit corporation's paperwork : "T.T.T." (a non-student) was the guy doing that and when he retired, he was supposed to turn in all prior paperwork the station's business manager, I never heard that it happened and I was on the board at that time. Things were starting to fall apart right about the time the new Board started late 1989 and it is very evident that it never turned around until just before the station was relinquised to Bennet. The idea behind the station being turned over was that due to the University being a much more stable institution, it it could handle the expenses that the station was aparrently still recovering from (er, what happened to the 5 year payback of the $30,000 loan for the new transmitter guys? it WAS figured into the budget that way!) Additionally, part of the negotiations (which did cause some on campus protests) were that the station become NPR. I'm not sure if it was to be full-time or part time as it is now, I think I remember the station board at the time would not relinquish the station unless it were given about 50% of the broadcast day (an occupation?) Also, the University created a newly defined position of "General Manager" (with different duties than that of the old "Station Manager" position on the WBA Inc.) which is an actual paid staffer who is not a student in order to keep the station on a much firmer grounding regarding losing the whole ship the way it once did years ago. (of course the 9-days to vacate notice of the original offices/studios in the basement of Clark Hall into a smaller area did not help either, I imagine a good amount of historical paperwork corporate minutes and a ton of music were lost as well).
Part of the problem with WESU was of course the student turn around, things were pretty well handled for many years but along comes a time when most of those who knew what needed to be done all graduated at once and left nothing behind to help along the new board of directors. Things like filing a license renewal; I remember it stated clearly the license was up in April 1991 (I left 2 years before that), filing Taxes and renewing the non-profit corporation's paperwork : "T.T.T." (a non-student) was the guy doing that and when he retired, he was supposed to turn in all prior paperwork the station's business manager, I never heard that it happened and I was on the board at that time. Things were starting to fall apart right about the time the new Board started late 1989 and it is very evident that it never turned around until just before the station was relinquised to Bennet. The idea behind the station being turned over was that due to the University being a much more stable institution, it it could handle the expenses that the station was aparrently still recovering from (er, what happened to the 5 year payback of the $30,000 loan for the new transmitter guys? it WAS figured into the budget that way!) Additionally, part of the negotiations (which did cause some on campus protests) were that the station become NPR. I'm not sure if it was to be full-time or part time as it is now, I think I remember the station board at the time would not relinquish the station unless it were given about 50% of the broadcast day (an occupation?) Also, the University created a newly defined position of "General Manager" (with different duties than that of the old "Station Manager" position on the WBA Inc.) which is an actual paid staffer who is not a student in order to keep the station on a much firmer grounding regarding losing the whole ship the way it once did years ago. (of course the 9-days to vacate notice of the original offices/studios in the basement of Clark Hall into a smaller area did not help either, I imagine a good amount of historical paperwork corporate minutes and a ton of music were lost as well).
Re: Commercial College/University stations
DJKraze, my wife is a Wesleyan alum and I once applied for the same job that Ben Michael, the "new" professional GM, ultimately got. Later I got to know Ben a little bit and he's a really nice guy; well-suited to the job in skills, temperament, and the fact that he's lived in Middletown most of his life. Maybe all his life, come to think of it.
Anyways, I got pretty familiar with the whole snafu regarding the license transfer from the now-defunct independent entity to Wesleyan University proper. Basically, the partial-LMA with WSHU (the NPR affiliate at Sacred Heart University) was the price Doug Bennett extracted in exchange for Wesleyan investing the time and money for better studio space, a full-time employee (Ben) and for keeping the FCC from immediately deleting the license.
Anyways, it's not full-time WSHU/NPR, just mornings to mid-afternoons and some weekends. There's still quite a few hours in the day that belong to student and community volunteer DJ's. Check the schedule here.
Wesleyan also paid for a professional spectrum consultant to analyze the surrounding spectrum in early 2007 and prepare an application to expand their signal ahead of the last big NCE filing window in October of that same year. The CP was granted and, in a few years, built out...both expanding their reach into Hartford nicely and preventing a scad of competing co-channel applications from creeping in along the CT/MA border that would've knocked down WESU's reach northward considerably. I know all this because I was that consultant.
The whole deal worked out fairly nicely for all involved.
I'm sure more that a few people at WESU were pissed about the "takeover" with WSHU but I think the results speak for themselves. A: the license isn't gone. B: they've got a bigger signal. C: they're raising more fundraising dollars...from listeners...in their drives than they ever have before. D: they've got a good structure in place to prevent the previous issues from ever happening again.
Objectively, I'd say it was a damn good thing Bennett was prez at the time; I think most University presidents would've either shrugged their shoulders and let the license die, or "saved" it only to immediately sell it and get rid of the problem while making a few bucks. At least Bennett was savvy enough about radio to recognize its potential.
DJKraze, my wife is a Wesleyan alum and I once applied for the same job that Ben Michael, the "new" professional GM, ultimately got. Later I got to know Ben a little bit and he's a really nice guy; well-suited to the job in skills, temperament, and the fact that he's lived in Middletown most of his life. Maybe all his life, come to think of it.
Anyways, I got pretty familiar with the whole snafu regarding the license transfer from the now-defunct independent entity to Wesleyan University proper. Basically, the partial-LMA with WSHU (the NPR affiliate at Sacred Heart University) was the price Doug Bennett extracted in exchange for Wesleyan investing the time and money for better studio space, a full-time employee (Ben) and for keeping the FCC from immediately deleting the license.
Anyways, it's not full-time WSHU/NPR, just mornings to mid-afternoons and some weekends. There's still quite a few hours in the day that belong to student and community volunteer DJ's. Check the schedule here.
Wesleyan also paid for a professional spectrum consultant to analyze the surrounding spectrum in early 2007 and prepare an application to expand their signal ahead of the last big NCE filing window in October of that same year. The CP was granted and, in a few years, built out...both expanding their reach into Hartford nicely and preventing a scad of competing co-channel applications from creeping in along the CT/MA border that would've knocked down WESU's reach northward considerably. I know all this because I was that consultant.
The whole deal worked out fairly nicely for all involved.I'm sure more that a few people at WESU were pissed about the "takeover" with WSHU but I think the results speak for themselves. A: the license isn't gone. B: they've got a bigger signal. C: they're raising more fundraising dollars...from listeners...in their drives than they ever have before. D: they've got a good structure in place to prevent the previous issues from ever happening again.
Objectively, I'd say it was a damn good thing Bennett was prez at the time; I think most University presidents would've either shrugged their shoulders and let the license die, or "saved" it only to immediately sell it and get rid of the problem while making a few bucks. At least Bennett was savvy enough about radio to recognize its potential.
Re: Commercial College/University stations
Yup. WPGU-FM, The Daily Illini, and a few other media outlets are under the umbrella of the Illini Media Company. Although we're currently financially independent, next year we will likely begin to receive funding from a student fee assessed to every student at the University (due to some bad decisions made by IMC management over the past several years).
Mark Jeffries said:
Yup. WPGU-FM, The Daily Illini, and a few other media outlets are under the umbrella of the Illini Media Company. Although we're currently financially independent, next year we will likely begin to receive funding from a student fee assessed to every student at the University (due to some bad decisions made by IMC management over the past several years).
Re: Commercial College/University stations
Yeah, I'm curious about this too. Religious broadcasters have been buying under performing Commercial FMs around Dixie and taking them Non-Com. Are those signals lost forever? 102.1 and 98.3 in Mobile (county) Alabama come to mind as does 105.7 outside Tallahassee, Florida and 97.1 near Nashville, TN. There are dozens more around Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, and Florida. I know religious broadcasters have little history selling stations to folks that may take them to a secular format, but are they actually locking down these signals so in the future religion will dominate well over 1/4 (if not up to 50%) of the radio dial (88.1-107.9 + AMs) in many southern markets?
ai4i said:
Yeah, I'm curious about this too. Religious broadcasters have been buying under performing Commercial FMs around Dixie and taking them Non-Com. Are those signals lost forever? 102.1 and 98.3 in Mobile (county) Alabama come to mind as does 105.7 outside Tallahassee, Florida and 97.1 near Nashville, TN. There are dozens more around Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, and Florida. I know religious broadcasters have little history selling stations to folks that may take them to a secular format, but are they actually locking down these signals so in the future religion will dominate well over 1/4 (if not up to 50%) of the radio dial (88.1-107.9 + AMs) in many southern markets?
Re: Commercial College/University stations
As long as it's not operating on a channel specifically reserved for NCE use in the table of allocations, it can simply apply for a minor change to convert to commercial status. (Family Stations has done that in the last year or so for 107.9 Annapolis MD, 106.9 Camden/Philadelphia and 94.7 Newark/NYC).
There are not many commercial-band channels reserved specifically for NCE use in the allocations table; it's mostly newer allocations in the last few years that were reserved NCE under rules that allow channels to be pulled out of the commercial auction system if a petitioner can show that the channel will provide a first or second NCE service to a certain proportion of the territory it will serve, and that no comparable channel is available in the reserved band.
ai4i said:
As long as it's not operating on a channel specifically reserved for NCE use in the table of allocations, it can simply apply for a minor change to convert to commercial status. (Family Stations has done that in the last year or so for 107.9 Annapolis MD, 106.9 Camden/Philadelphia and 94.7 Newark/NYC).
There are not many commercial-band channels reserved specifically for NCE use in the allocations table; it's mostly newer allocations in the last few years that were reserved NCE under rules that allow channels to be pulled out of the commercial auction system if a petitioner can show that the channel will provide a first or second NCE service to a certain proportion of the territory it will serve, and that no comparable channel is available in the reserved band.
Re: Commercial College/University stations
I'm wondering if I'm understanding you correctly, Scott.
Stations that were commercial for the last 30 years but were purchased by say EMF and taken non-commercial in the last year could be sold back to commercial broadcasters and converted back to a commercial license? Therefore the new non-profit owners did not depreciate their property (station) by taking a commercial license non-com? I believe intentionally depreciating an asset of a non-profit organization is illegal, so this theory would make sense.
When someone does a channel search and submits a station in the commercial band to the FCC for inclusion in the next public auction they can be designated as being for non-commercial use, originally allocated and auctioned as Non-commercial?
Or is it more along the lines of if the folks that win the initial bid for a channel in the commercial band apply for a non-commercial license first (no commercial license has ever been issued for the station) then future owners cannot apply to change the license to commercial?
Now for some complicated and interesting questions:
If a station in the non-commercial band is "locked" into non-commercial status and a commercial operator wants it bad enough, theoretically the license can be downgraded to a 1.5kw class A and moved off into the middle of nowhere... allowing a nearby, commercial station to conduct a series of minor changes, upgrade(s) and move(s) into the desirable area previously covered by the non-com in the commercial band? Afterward the old non-com could go dark and turn in it's license if it has no value in it's new location.
Or would a non-com in the commercial band only have the option to go dark and turn in the license allowing a commercial entity to apply for a new station allocation on the same frequency and then it would be auctioned to the public? This scenario couldn't possibly be good for anyone because you never know who will want the new allocation and bid the most money.
On a related note,
Could a station on 91.9FM apply for a minor change to move to 92.1 (or 92.3)? If yes, would the station automatically keep it's non-commercial status or could it apply for a commercial license after the minor frequency change into the commercial band? Might as well ask, is the reverse possible... could an old class A on 92.1 apply for a minor change to a full class C on 91.9 (if the separation requirements were met) instead of applying for a new non-com license in the 91.5-91.9 range? This would of course automatically result in the station being or becoming a non-com.
If it is possible to apply for a minor change to move from 91.9 to 92.1, it seems like this would have happened a few times... any examples come to mind?
Scott Fybush said:
I'm wondering if I'm understanding you correctly, Scott.
Stations that were commercial for the last 30 years but were purchased by say EMF and taken non-commercial in the last year could be sold back to commercial broadcasters and converted back to a commercial license? Therefore the new non-profit owners did not depreciate their property (station) by taking a commercial license non-com? I believe intentionally depreciating an asset of a non-profit organization is illegal, so this theory would make sense.
When someone does a channel search and submits a station in the commercial band to the FCC for inclusion in the next public auction they can be designated as being for non-commercial use, originally allocated and auctioned as Non-commercial?
Or is it more along the lines of if the folks that win the initial bid for a channel in the commercial band apply for a non-commercial license first (no commercial license has ever been issued for the station) then future owners cannot apply to change the license to commercial?
Now for some complicated and interesting questions:
If a station in the non-commercial band is "locked" into non-commercial status and a commercial operator wants it bad enough, theoretically the license can be downgraded to a 1.5kw class A and moved off into the middle of nowhere... allowing a nearby, commercial station to conduct a series of minor changes, upgrade(s) and move(s) into the desirable area previously covered by the non-com in the commercial band? Afterward the old non-com could go dark and turn in it's license if it has no value in it's new location.
Or would a non-com in the commercial band only have the option to go dark and turn in the license allowing a commercial entity to apply for a new station allocation on the same frequency and then it would be auctioned to the public? This scenario couldn't possibly be good for anyone because you never know who will want the new allocation and bid the most money.
On a related note,
Could a station on 91.9FM apply for a minor change to move to 92.1 (or 92.3)? If yes, would the station automatically keep it's non-commercial status or could it apply for a commercial license after the minor frequency change into the commercial band? Might as well ask, is the reverse possible... could an old class A on 92.1 apply for a minor change to a full class C on 91.9 (if the separation requirements were met) instead of applying for a new non-com license in the 91.5-91.9 range? This would of course automatically result in the station being or becoming a non-com.
If it is possible to apply for a minor change to move from 91.9 to 92.1, it seems like this would have happened a few times... any examples come to mind?
Re: Commercial College/University stations
I can't speak to the IRS implications of such a move, just the FCC side. The FCC absolutely allows stations on non-reserved channels in the non-reserved part of the FM band (and any AM) to be converted to and from NCE status at will. Check out 97.5 in Mobile, Alabama, which has gone back and forth from commercial WABB-FM to EMF as a noncomm and then back to commercial as WABD.
No to the second question, "kinda yes" to the first. It's important to note that the table of allotments no longer exists in the way it once did. 47CFR73.202(c) is the governing rule set here, and it changed rather dramatically in 2009 or thereabouts.
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2009-title47-vol4/xml/CFR-2009-title47-vol4-sec73-202.xml
In a nutshell, once a channel has been petitioned for as a new commercial allocation, there's a window during which competing applicants can ask the FCC to reserve that channel for NCE use. Once a channel has been reserved for NCE use in the table, it cannot go to auction; instead, it's awarded by way of a complex points system.
I believe it's also possible for an applicant to win a non-reserved channel at auction, and then operate the channel as a NCE. In that case, it can be changed back to commercial status at will.
Again, keeping in mind that there's only a handful of NCE reservations on the commercial band: no, those allocations can't easily be moved "out of the way" in the manner you suggest. Nor can they be deleted simply by surrendering the license; the allocation stays in place on the table even if the license goes away.
Yes! WOMR in Provincetown, on the tip of Cape Cod, was on 91.9A and moved to 92.1A in the 1990s. There's also WBST-FM in Muncie, Indiana, which migrated from 10 watts on 90.7 to a class A on 92.1 in the late 1970s. Neither of those 92.1s appears in the table of allocations as a reserved channel; I doubt they would be allowed to convert to commercial status.
As for the reverse question (a move from, say, 92.1 to 91.9), no examples come to mind. I'm not sure how the FCC would rule on such a request.
poledo said:
I can't speak to the IRS implications of such a move, just the FCC side. The FCC absolutely allows stations on non-reserved channels in the non-reserved part of the FM band (and any AM) to be converted to and from NCE status at will. Check out 97.5 in Mobile, Alabama, which has gone back and forth from commercial WABB-FM to EMF as a noncomm and then back to commercial as WABD.
No to the second question, "kinda yes" to the first. It's important to note that the table of allotments no longer exists in the way it once did. 47CFR73.202(c) is the governing rule set here, and it changed rather dramatically in 2009 or thereabouts.
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2009-title47-vol4/xml/CFR-2009-title47-vol4-sec73-202.xml
In a nutshell, once a channel has been petitioned for as a new commercial allocation, there's a window during which competing applicants can ask the FCC to reserve that channel for NCE use. Once a channel has been reserved for NCE use in the table, it cannot go to auction; instead, it's awarded by way of a complex points system.
I believe it's also possible for an applicant to win a non-reserved channel at auction, and then operate the channel as a NCE. In that case, it can be changed back to commercial status at will.
Again, keeping in mind that there's only a handful of NCE reservations on the commercial band: no, those allocations can't easily be moved "out of the way" in the manner you suggest. Nor can they be deleted simply by surrendering the license; the allocation stays in place on the table even if the license goes away.
Yes! WOMR in Provincetown, on the tip of Cape Cod, was on 91.9A and moved to 92.1A in the 1990s. There's also WBST-FM in Muncie, Indiana, which migrated from 10 watts on 90.7 to a class A on 92.1 in the late 1970s. Neither of those 92.1s appears in the table of allocations as a reserved channel; I doubt they would be allowed to convert to commercial status.
As for the reverse question (a move from, say, 92.1 to 91.9), no examples come to mind. I'm not sure how the FCC would rule on such a request.
Re: Commercial College/University stations
There are two types of FM channel:
- Reserved channels
- Non-reserved channels
All FM channels below 92 are automatically reserved. Channels above 92 may be reserved by the FCC if someone asks, and is able to demonstrate need through certain criteria.
===
Reserved channels:
- May only be used by non-commercial stations.
- If there are two or more applicants for the same reserved channel, a point system will be used to determine who gets it.
===
Non-reserved channels:
- May be used by any station, commercial or otherwise.
- If there are two or more applicants for the same non-reserved channel, an auction will be held.*
- If used by a non-commercial station, that station may switch to commercial operation (and back) upon filing appropriate paperwork.
===
* Scott, don't I remember reading that if both commercial and non-commercial applicants file for the same non-reserved channel, the non-commercial application(s) will be automatically dismissed? Because they can't hold an auction for a non-commercial license, but *must* hold an auction for a commercial one?
===
Hopefully that's clear. Maybe it isn't
There are two types of FM channel:
- Reserved channels
- Non-reserved channels
All FM channels below 92 are automatically reserved. Channels above 92 may be reserved by the FCC if someone asks, and is able to demonstrate need through certain criteria.
===
Reserved channels:
- May only be used by non-commercial stations.
- If there are two or more applicants for the same reserved channel, a point system will be used to determine who gets it.
===
Non-reserved channels:
- May be used by any station, commercial or otherwise.
- If there are two or more applicants for the same non-reserved channel, an auction will be held.*
- If used by a non-commercial station, that station may switch to commercial operation (and back) upon filing appropriate paperwork.
===
* Scott, don't I remember reading that if both commercial and non-commercial applicants file for the same non-reserved channel, the non-commercial application(s) will be automatically dismissed? Because they can't hold an auction for a non-commercial license, but *must* hold an auction for a commercial one?
===
Hopefully that's clear. Maybe it isn't
Re: Commercial College/University stations
It's reserved band NCE. However, it appears with a footnote that it's only available to Class D stations bumped from their channels.
It does NOT appear in the list of FM channels in 73.201, the rules for commercial FM. It *does* appear in the list in 73.501, the rules for non-commercial FM.
87.9 is not allowed for LPFMs.
CSN has convinced the FCC an FM translator is a Class D station, thus allowing them to use Channel 200 for a translator in Nevada which was bumped from a "regular" channel & could find nowhere else to go. Translators are in fact listed as Class D stations in the CDBS database, although they're regulated under a totally different Part of the FCC regs.
ai4i said:
It's reserved band NCE. However, it appears with a footnote that it's only available to Class D stations bumped from their channels.
It does NOT appear in the list of FM channels in 73.201, the rules for commercial FM. It *does* appear in the list in 73.501, the rules for non-commercial FM.
87.9 is not allowed for LPFMs.
CSN has convinced the FCC an FM translator is a Class D station, thus allowing them to use Channel 200 for a translator in Nevada which was bumped from a "regular" channel & could find nowhere else to go. Translators are in fact listed as Class D stations in the CDBS database, although they're regulated under a totally different Part of the FCC regs.
Re: Commercial College/University stations
An NCE that moves into the commercial band is still an NCE; they cannot simply change to a commercial license because there was no allocation made for them. To become a commercial station, they'd have to surrender the existing NCE license, petition for a new allocation, and win it at auction. I asked the FCC about allowing WBRS (a grandfathered Class D at 100.1) to become a commercial-band translator...with the idea that the college would lease time on an HD2 and use it to feed the translator. The translator rules would allow for a MUCH bigger signal on 100.1 than the grandfathered Class D rules...but the FCC said no dice; they'd have to surrender, petition and win at auction...which they'd never do; a translator in Boston would be worth at least six figures, probably into seven.
If the station was originally a commercial allocation on 92.1 then it cannot move into the NCE band. The FCC would deny the application.
If the station was originally a NCE that moved into the commercial band (like, say, WOMR) and then wanted to move BACK? That they could do, within the usual restrictions of minor change rules.
There are, IIRC, only two: a translator K200AH in Sun Valley, NV and a Class D KSFH in San Francisco. The rules for using 87.9 are incredibly restrictive. Only Class D stations (grandfathered 10w NCE's and translators), only if you're nowhere near the Canada/Mexico borders, only if there's no other channels available, and only if you're nowhere near a TV station on Channel 6 (since TV6's aural carrier is on 87.75MHz). Plus the usual 1st-adjacent contour restrictions against 88.1 (Chan.201), which is a very commonly-used frequency.
The TV6 restriction was the killer until the DTV transition in 2009 when a lot of VHF stations moved to UHF. That's why KSFH happened; the Bay Area has a very congested dial, it's not near the border, and it used to be one of the few such markets without a TV6. I'm sure there's at least a few stations out there that could now move to 87.9 and it'd be beneficial. I know for a fact there's at least one, arguably two or three, in the northeast that could REALLY benefit from that move, but they can't do it because they're too close to the Canadian border.
The irony, of course, is that more than a few people realized they could use TV6 stations as "frankenstein" FM stations since most FM Radios will tune to 87.7MHz and that's "close enough" for 87.75MHz. Some of those stations, including one in Manhattan, were the equivalent of full Class A FM stations. So the FCC has all these insane rules for FM stations to go on 87.9, but TV stations could operate almost willy-nilly on it. Pretty much the only thing that stopped that was the DTV conversion finally starting to force all the LPTV's over to digital as well.
An NCE that moves into the commercial band is still an NCE; they cannot simply change to a commercial license because there was no allocation made for them. To become a commercial station, they'd have to surrender the existing NCE license, petition for a new allocation, and win it at auction. I asked the FCC about allowing WBRS (a grandfathered Class D at 100.1) to become a commercial-band translator...with the idea that the college would lease time on an HD2 and use it to feed the translator. The translator rules would allow for a MUCH bigger signal on 100.1 than the grandfathered Class D rules...but the FCC said no dice; they'd have to surrender, petition and win at auction...which they'd never do; a translator in Boston would be worth at least six figures, probably into seven.
If the station was originally a commercial allocation on 92.1 then it cannot move into the NCE band. The FCC would deny the application.
If the station was originally a NCE that moved into the commercial band (like, say, WOMR) and then wanted to move BACK? That they could do, within the usual restrictions of minor change rules.
There are, IIRC, only two: a translator K200AH in Sun Valley, NV and a Class D KSFH in San Francisco. The rules for using 87.9 are incredibly restrictive. Only Class D stations (grandfathered 10w NCE's and translators), only if you're nowhere near the Canada/Mexico borders, only if there's no other channels available, and only if you're nowhere near a TV station on Channel 6 (since TV6's aural carrier is on 87.75MHz). Plus the usual 1st-adjacent contour restrictions against 88.1 (Chan.201), which is a very commonly-used frequency.
The TV6 restriction was the killer until the DTV transition in 2009 when a lot of VHF stations moved to UHF. That's why KSFH happened; the Bay Area has a very congested dial, it's not near the border, and it used to be one of the few such markets without a TV6. I'm sure there's at least a few stations out there that could now move to 87.9 and it'd be beneficial. I know for a fact there's at least one, arguably two or three, in the northeast that could REALLY benefit from that move, but they can't do it because they're too close to the Canadian border.
The irony, of course, is that more than a few people realized they could use TV6 stations as "frankenstein" FM stations since most FM Radios will tune to 87.7MHz and that's "close enough" for 87.75MHz. Some of those stations, including one in Manhattan, were the equivalent of full Class A FM stations. So the FCC has all these insane rules for FM stations to go on 87.9, but TV stations could operate almost willy-nilly on it. Pretty much the only thing that stopped that was the DTV conversion finally starting to force all the LPTV's over to digital as well.
Re: Commercial College/University stations
Are all of the restricted/reserved NCE channels in the commercial 92.1-107.9 band located in border towns like Detroit and San Diego where Mexican and Canadian channels fill up with non-comm band? How else would a situation arise where there was no room for two non-commercial stations to locate in the non-comm 88.1-91.9 band?
Or did I translate that part of the rule wrong?
Also, thanks for taking the time to break down my incredibly long questions guys.
Are all of the restricted/reserved NCE channels in the commercial 92.1-107.9 band located in border towns like Detroit and San Diego where Mexican and Canadian channels fill up with non-comm band? How else would a situation arise where there was no room for two non-commercial stations to locate in the non-comm 88.1-91.9 band?
Or did I translate that part of the rule wrong?
Also, thanks for taking the time to break down my incredibly long questions guys.
Re: Commercial College/University stations
Happy to be of help!
Only a few of the reserved NCE channels are actually in border towns, interestingly. (92.1A Amherst NY comes to mind.) Most of them are in places where the NCE band either filled up with lower-power signals or where a channel 6 TV allocation restricted use of the NCE band. I'm looking, for instance, at the *103.9C1 in Weiser, Idaho, about 50 miles from Boise. There are a few high-power NCE signals in Boise, co-located with the former channel 6 allocation, but their 60 dBu contours start to peter out by the time you get to Weiser. There's no space for a C1 on the NCE band in Weiser because of those Boise NCEs and channel 6, and it's easy to demonstrate that the 103.9C1 signal would put a 60 dBu over lots of area (most of it very vacant!) that doesn't get a 60 from the Boise NCEs or any other NCE.
Because this process of reserving NCE channels on the commercial band is quite new, the commercial band was already pretty full in most of the populated border areas, so it didn't leave much room for new commercial-band NCE reservations.
poledo said:
Happy to be of help!
Only a few of the reserved NCE channels are actually in border towns, interestingly. (92.1A Amherst NY comes to mind.) Most of them are in places where the NCE band either filled up with lower-power signals or where a channel 6 TV allocation restricted use of the NCE band. I'm looking, for instance, at the *103.9C1 in Weiser, Idaho, about 50 miles from Boise. There are a few high-power NCE signals in Boise, co-located with the former channel 6 allocation, but their 60 dBu contours start to peter out by the time you get to Weiser. There's no space for a C1 on the NCE band in Weiser because of those Boise NCEs and channel 6, and it's easy to demonstrate that the 103.9C1 signal would put a 60 dBu over lots of area (most of it very vacant!) that doesn't get a 60 from the Boise NCEs or any other NCE.
Because this process of reserving NCE channels on the commercial band is quite new, the commercial band was already pretty full in most of the populated border areas, so it didn't leave much room for new commercial-band NCE reservations.
Re: Commercial College/University stations
Scott knows this stuff better than I do, but IIRC it's not just that such NCE allocations in the commercial band are there because there's no room for a full-sized (Class Bx or Cx) NCE due to lots of little NCE's or whatever...but also because there's not really all that much demand for a commercial allocation in the market.
I'm specifically thinking of Cape Cod's WZAI, which did have TV6 issues but really that market is incredibly over-served and I don't think any sane commercial operator would think they could really make a go of it with a new station. Not after paying whatever the auction would inevitably cost.
Scott knows this stuff better than I do, but IIRC it's not just that such NCE allocations in the commercial band are there because there's no room for a full-sized (Class Bx or Cx) NCE due to lots of little NCE's or whatever...but also because there's not really all that much demand for a commercial allocation in the market.
I'm specifically thinking of Cape Cod's WZAI, which did have TV6 issues but really that market is incredibly over-served and I don't think any sane commercial operator would think they could really make a go of it with a new station. Not after paying whatever the auction would inevitably cost.
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