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106.1 K-Breeze: A Foul Wind Blowin'

Bruce,
you are totally incorrect with your numbers. A Local Oscillator in a radio (The LO) does NOT move because of a wider input signal. A LO is a single fixed carrier......In FM radios, a LO is 10.7 MHz above the desired signal (one reason FM radios are banned on aircraft...the LO can interfere with VOR and DME equipment onboard)

With a station running HD, the LO is still on the original frequency for the analog carrier. The HD carriers are on either side of the main carrier and are converted by the LO to sides of the 10.7 analog IF signal. This signal does NOT radiate (if it did, analog radios would have been interfering with each other on ALL frequencies for decades)...sorry your "facts" are totally incorrect. A PLL tuned radio will have a rock stable LO 10.7MHz above the signal it is receiving...Only one. The 10.6 to 10.8MHz issue was a problem with analog/manual tuned radios...but with PLL tuned radios, that does not happen anymore. A radio digitally tuned to 96.5 will only cause issues with a station on 107.2. That issue only happens with cheap home table top and cheap Walkman style radios but with the PLL circuits being as they are, it's cheaper to make a radio with a digital tuner (NOT HD here) than a manual tuner. However, there are still cheap table top FM radios manually tuned...if more than 100kHz off center, they COULD cause a problem but not the distance you claim....the LO does not shift +/- 400kHz while receiving the FM signal...IF someone had a radio at a home causing a problem over a 600khz spread, the radio was defective and should not have been radiating a LO for 1/5 of a mile anyway. Part 15 rules do not allow radios to be sold with that kind of leakage, etc. Home radios must meet the same Part 15 radiation limits as car models do.

Also HD on FM is redundant. A LO at 107.2, IF it interfered with HD carriers on the low side of 107.5, would not cause issues with the HD carriers above the 107.5 analog signal. This feature was built into HD to provide redundancy in the case of interference.

Sorry your argument doesn't hold water.

I never said the LO frequency moved. It is 10.7 MHz. But the stations do frequency modulate, so the IF frequency frequency modulates. Frequency modulation doesn't equal the channel width, in the old pre-HD days it was +/- 75 kHz. I have no idea what HD did to that frequency modulation, but it must have increased - because the jamming is real. Just do the darn test for yourself! I tried it again yesterday, IF does radiate to some degree from every radio, thankfully car radios are shielded better than most, but it varies with car model.

I am glad they built redundancy into the system, but IF images still cause the HD to drop. It is really noticeable on HD-2 because it goes silent.
 
I never said the LO frequency moved. It is 10.7 MHz.

No, the local oscillator frequency varies all over the place--it is 10.7 MHz above whatever frequency is being tuned. So on a standard FM radio, the LO frequency could be anywhere between 98.8 and 118.6 MHz.

But the stations do frequency modulate, so the IF frequency frequency modulates.

The local oscillator is just an unmodulated carrier. When mixed with the intended station (on whatever frequency) the result is a modulated signal on 10.7 MHz inside the receiver. If you wired a shortwave receiver antenna into the IF circuit of a FM receiver, you could tune the SW to 10.7 MHz and hear that resultant IF signal. Same with AM radio--if I tune a longwave receiver to 455 kHz and place it next to an AM radio, it will pick up whatever is being tuned on the AM radio. But the LO is still just an unmodulated carrier. The resultant "difference" frequency is what has the modulation, and it does not change.

Frequency modulation doesn't equal the channel width, in the old pre-HD days it was +/- 75 kHz.

Or a bit more if the station was running SCA at 92 kHz.

I have no idea what HD did to that frequency modulation, but it must have increased

The digital sidebands for HD radio extend out to 200kHz either side of the center frequency. These can actually be from a separate transmitter from the main FM station. If you look at a HD FM signal on a spectrum analyzer you can see the very sharply defined region where the digital sidebands are, plus the main signal, stereo pilot, stereo L-R subchannnel, RDS, and 67 and 92 kHz SCA. The sidebands can swamp a weak first adjacent FM station, although only FMDX geeks would care about that due to the poor signal.

- because the jamming is real. Just do the darn test for yourself! I tried it again yesterday, IF does radiate to some degree from every radio

But the LO is still just an unmodulated carrier--no HD present. If a LO signal is close enough to the frequency of a desired station, yes, it could overwhelm an HD sideband if the receiver's IF bandpass is wide enough. But HD does not increase interference from LO's--it is just a victim of those LO's.
 
No, the local oscillator frequency varies all over the place--it is 10.7 MHz above whatever frequency is being tuned. So on a standard FM radio, the LO frequency could be anywhere between 98.8 and 118.6 MHz.



The local oscillator is just an unmodulated carrier. When mixed with the intended station (on whatever frequency) the result is a modulated signal on 10.7 MHz inside the receiver. If you wired a shortwave receiver antenna into the IF circuit of a FM receiver, you could tune the SW to 10.7 MHz and hear that resultant IF signal. Same with AM radio--if I tune a longwave receiver to 455 kHz and place it next to an AM radio, it will pick up whatever is being tuned on the AM radio. But the LO is still just an unmodulated carrier. The resultant "difference" frequency is what has the modulation, and it does not change.



Or a bit more if the station was running SCA at 92 kHz.



The digital sidebands for HD radio extend out to 200kHz either side of the center frequency. These can actually be from a separate transmitter from the main FM station. If you look at a HD FM signal on a spectrum analyzer you can see the very sharply defined region where the digital sidebands are, plus the main signal, stereo pilot, stereo L-R subchannnel, RDS, and 67 and 92 kHz SCA. The sidebands can swamp a weak first adjacent FM station, although only FMDX geeks would care about that due to the poor signal.



But the LO is still just an unmodulated carrier--no HD present. If a LO signal is close enough to the frequency of a desired station, yes, it could overwhelm an HD sideband if the receiver's IF bandpass is wide enough. But HD does not increase interference from LO's--it is just a victim of those LO's.

OK, time out. I'd really like to put this thread on a little higher level. I mis-spoke, probably because I was in a hurry. The IF doesn't move, it is 10.7 MHz. The LO is a single frequency, it tracks the RF 10.7 MHz higher. I've known how a freaking superhet works since I was 12! So no more of insulting denegrations, PLEASE!

Now back to the issue at hand. Can an IF image jam HD? There is a reason why the FCC established 10.6 and 10.8 MHz protections. Taking a Houston example - with a 200 kHz channel assumed (analog no HD). A radio tuned to 96.5 produces a LO of 107.2 MHz. So 107.1 (channel 107.0 to 107.2) and 107.3 channel 107.2 to 107.4) are not allowed within a certain radius, because they could potentially be jammed by the LO of a radio tuned to 96.5. And Houston has no 107.1 or 107.3. It does, however, have a 106.9 and a 107.5. Those are 300 kHz away from LO's of nearby radios at 107.2. They will not be jammed.

Now add HD to the equation. The HD sidebands of 106.9 overlap 106.7 and - drumroll - 107.1! Similarly, the HD sidebands of 107.5 are on 107.3 and 107.7. !07.1 and 107.3 are the exact frequencies disallowed by FCC protections. Oops! So - depending on how wide you think the entire bandwidth of an HD FM station is - there is a real potential that part of the HD bandwidth for 106.9 shows up on 107.2, and the same with 107.5. That is what I think I am experiencing when a car drives by or catches up at a light.

I first noticed this when the weather was nice, and I think it was somebody listening to classic country on 97.1. My HD on 107.5 dropped. Because it was HD-2, and both of us had windows down, my radio went silent and I could hear his radio. I heard an ID on his radio. We were at a light. When the light changed, and he went ahead, my HD came back. I caught up to him at a light a mile later, and sure enough my HD went out as I got near his car. It didn't dawn on me what was going on at first, because it didn't make sense. But when I realized - the LO of 97.1 from his radio is 107.8. And an HD sideband of 107.5 is on an adjacent frequency of 107.7 - depending on how wide that sideband is, it could be on 107.8. As time went on, I began to get additional examples affecting primarily stations above 98.5. You commute the same route every day, and start to see the same cars. The same cars cause HD dropouts.

I really think there is an issue here with the LO of neighboring cars radiating and jamming my HD. It is particularly annoying because I pretty much only listen to HD-2, and it goes silent. If it is a 2 minute light, that is half a song! I seriously doubt the HD engineering "geniuses" thought the implications of using adjacent channels through carefully enough.

Like I say - don't take my word for it. Try it yourself! Two cars parked beside each other in a driveway, one with HD. Try to jam HD by tuning 10.4 to 11 MHz lower. You can! I can do it dependably in my driveway. The HD sideband power is low as it is, it doesn't take much to zap it.
 
Okay, the new two bay antenna for 106.1 has arrived. See pic. It will be mounted on an 1800 foot tower located on Senior Road -- not "the" Senior Road tower -- that looks like a candelabrum. They are filing a minor amendment to eliminate the directional pattern because the LPFM that was to be on 106.1 in north Houston has now "gone away." Was told the build out will be next month.

20150218_163528.jpg
 
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Okay, the new two bay antenna for 106.1 has arrived. See pic. It will be mounted on an 1800 foot tower located on Senior Road -- not "the" Senior Road tower -- that looks like a candelabrum. They are filing a minor amendment to eliminate the directional pattern because the LPFM that was to be on 106.1 in north Houston has now "gone away." Was told the build out will be next month.

View attachment 469

Does anybody really believe that they are re-broadcasting the HD-3 of 102.1? The audio level on that HD-3 is extremely low, and not in stereo from what I can tell. How long before the FCC finds out about the deception?
 
Does anybody really believe that they are re-broadcasting the HD-3 of 102.1? The audio level on that HD-3 is extremely low, and not in stereo from what I can tell. How long before the FCC finds out about the deception?

They don't have to feed the translator directly off the on air feed from the HD-3.

"A commercial fill-in translator may receive a primary station's signal via any terrestrial transmission method, including (but not limited to) microwave, phone, internet, and dedicated fiber optic cable. Satellite delivery is prohibited. These requirements also apply to noncommercial educational translators in the reserved band (88 to 92 MHz) that are not commonly owned with the primary station."

They are probably using a microwave link or and internet connection to feed it.
 
Audio may improve at some point, but the engineer indicated its unlikely it will be stereo because that will substantially diminish coverage. This is going to be another one of RAFTTs brokered stations. Right now Fort Bend ISD has it for programming sports and classic hits. Once it moves to Houston, who knows whether they'll keep it. Just speculating, but it'll probably end up being like all the AM stations that actually produce revenue for their owners -- e.g., programming from some foreign language ethnic group or a preacher with deep pockets.

Well, I posted the above back in December. Sure enough, this morning 106.1 was programming christian music, then oldies part of the day, then foreign language in the afternoon, now Fort Bend sports this evening. Pay RAFTT some money, and they'll let you program whatever you want. I predict mostly foreign stuff real soon...
 
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Once again, someone posts totally incorrect facts:

"their 2 bay Jampro antenna in a pattern that will cover most if not all of Houston." Note this was forwarded to me as I ignore such incorrect messages!

However, according to the 60dbU contour map on the FCC site, nope...not all and not MOST of Houston....and what the circle does show will be 1mV signal.....50/50.....so this is the start of the crappy area.....HMMMM Doesnt look like its covering all or most of Houston under those numbers (NOTE: you have to scroll in on the below..for some reason, it defaults to a DOT almost....but use your scroll wheel or the slider bar and zoom in...just not TOO far.....HMM 290 at Beltway? NOPE....Humble?? Not likely....MOST of 610 on the north side??? NO WAY JOSE!.....Just look at the map and enjoy your laugh..
I've done 50-700watts at 1500ft. It was so so but nothing spectacular...enjoy the laugh....and tell me how much YOU think Houston is covered.....

http://www.bing.com/maps/?mapurl=ht...106.1&contour=60&city=SUGAR_LAND&state=TX.kml
 
Once again, someone posts totally incorrect facts:

Just look at the map and enjoy your laugh..

Considering that 95% of the average station's at home and at work listening takes place inside the 65 dbu contour, we can laugh even harder.

If we are talking about K291CE the population inside the 65 dbu signal is 55,700 persons. That is likely not "nearly all of Houston".
 


Considering that 95% of the average station's at home and at work listening takes place inside the 65 dbu contour, we can laugh even harder.

If we are talking about K291CE the population inside the 65 dbu signal is 55,700 persons. That is likely not "nearly all of Houston".

A good single subdivision may have more than that!!! :)
 
O' Continuous One, I'm not trying to argue with you here. I see what the maps say, and then I consider the reality. As I type this I'm listening to Bruce Springstein's "Born To Be Wild" on 106.1 in the parking garage of Methodist Smith Tower in the Medical Center. The stereo pilot is flickering but its listenable. This is coming from 250 watts at 300 feet down south of Richmond, Texas. If its doing that well from that far out, one will expect much better from a tower most folks in.Houston can see flashing in the sky every night.
 
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As predicted, on 2/27/2015 K291CE filed to minor modify. They seek to emit 250 watts from their 2 bay Jampro antenna in a pattern that will cover most if not all of Houston. https://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/w...t=25&appn=101665875&formid=349&fac_num=147704

Are you sure that's an actual Jampro antenna, Joe, or one of the cheap, aluminum knock-offs that are sold from an Ebayer in Indonesia? I believe they call it a "Penetrator" and it (like the brand one) has a -3bD gain.

I was listening out in Katy earlier this week, and heard some Arabic-like music. Not sure if that's from the station in question.
 
I believe it's actually Steppenwolf's Born To Be Wild. ;)

You know, that's funny. I was sitting here thinking, he was Born in the USA, as well as Born to Run, but I'm pretty sure Steppenwolf was the only one to be Born to be Wild. Unless somewhere along the line Springsteen covered it, and I missed it. Of course, that's very much possible as The Boss is not one of my favorite artists. I'm pretty sure whatever Joe heard, ain't in The Breeze's "rotation" anymore. Last few times I've tuned it in, it has been arab programming.

Gee, thanks for that RAFTT.
 
Yeah, I must've been slipping that day. Or my mind was more preoccupied with how many needles the doctors were gonna stick in me...

The song was Bruce Springstein's "Born To Run," which probably won't be heard on 106.1 much anymore. More likely "Born in Pakistan," "Born in India," or "Born in Iran."
 

The song was Bruce Springstein's "Born To Run," which probably won't be heard on 106.1 much anymore. More likely "Born in Pakistan," "Born in India," or "Born in Iran."

Sure sounds like it, Joe. Sounds like music to hijack airliners to. Of course, it's only conjecture as to what they were actually playing on the flight decks that historic morning.
 
I see K291ce has not moved forward on their construction permit to move to the Senior Road tower, nor has the FCC acted on their app to change from a directional away from Houston to a nondirectional. Looking at the predicted coverage map on the proposed nondirectional, this station would serve most of Houston. Too bad they'll probably abandoned the classic hits for foreign stuff.

K291ce Sugar Land. TX.JPG
 
They were, but last I heard they had started on 102.1 HD3 to make it legal. I hope they aren't violating rules again when they should know how it's supposed to work now. They're a licensed broadcaster, and hopefully making money. It's a good idea to make money the ethical way. If that were my station I'd sure want to protect my station's license.
 
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