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Proof that hearing Hotel California repeatedly will drive you crazy

Why the heck are we now discussing some old group called "The Beatles" instead of Hotel California? Okay, okay, I'll play along. On many tracks on the Beatles' first few albums, John or Paul sang lead while Ringo played drums and the other two Beatles sang harmony. On Abbey Road and Let It Be, most of the tracks featured John or Paul and there was very little harmony from the other Beatles. They were still a group in 1969, but they were a group made up of four solo artists.

"Coming apart at the seams." That reminds me of Marmalade's 1976 hit Falling Apart At The Seams, which I'd love to hear on KRTH.....but I know I never will.
 
Really when you put The Beatles in the context of other 60s groups, it's no surprise they went their separate ways. Around the same time, Brian Wilson was no longer part of the Beach Boys touring band. The Byrds, The Mamas & Papas, The Lovin' Spoonful, Buffalo Springfield, and even the Rolling Stones were either breaking up or replacing members. Even the Bee Gees, built around 3 brothers (two of whom were twins) were falling apart. Consider the brother bands that broke up: The Everly Brothers, The Kinks, and CCR. I'd add the Righteous Brothers, but they weren't actually brothers. To bring it back on topic, consider all the personnel changes in The Eagles. Groups break up. That's often why record labels are hesitant to sign them. Unless they're willing to designate a leader, who will continue the band after the rest leave, such as Gary Puckett & The Union Gap. The Turtles still tour as The Turtles, although the only original members are Mark & Howie. My understanding is the Beatles made an agreement not to do that.
 
Why the heck are we now discussing some old group called "The Beatles" instead of Hotel California?

Um...because you asked.

(screen goes all wavy, harp music plays)



quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by LARadioRewind

Greg Kot, Chicago Tribune music critic, compared the two groups in 2013, the 50th anniversary of the Rolling Stones' first single. Does anyone agree with his comment about the Beatles "running on fumes" in 1969?



"Coming apart at the seams." That reminds me of Marmalade's 1976 hit Falling Apart At The Seams, which I'd love to hear on KRTH.....but I know I never will.

Hit? The second-lowest charting of the three singles they had that actually made the Hot 100 (the lowest-charting, "Rainbow", was my favorite)? #49?

No, Steve...not a hit.
 
Why the heck are we now discussing some old group called "The Beatles" instead of Hotel California?

Because the prior effort at hijacking this thread and putting it out of its misery with the Richfield Reporter didn't work?

Maybe comparing the Beatles to the Rolling Stones will be more successful?

Or is this, to parody the song Lamb Chop used to sing on PBS, simply "the thread that never ends?"
 
Michael, by what standards are you judging whether a song was a hit? The Doors' Break On Through got to #21 on the KHJ Boss 30 but stalled at #126 on Billboard's Bubbling Under chart. In Los Angeles it was a hit. I could name hundreds of other songs that were big in Los Angeles or other cities but did not doo well nationally. Considering how many good songs never chart nationally, I consider a hit to be any song that makes the Hot 100. Now, that does not mean that I consider Greasy Heart, Tina Cherry and That's How I Beat Shaq to be on the same level as Yeah, Independent Women and I Gotta Feeling. Some hits are much bigger than others---ask any baseball player.

And you seemed baffled by my question, "Why the heck are we now discussing some old group called 'The Beatles' instead of Hotel California?" I will echo the words of a young boy named Charles Brown: Don't you know sarcasm when you hear it?
 
Considering how many good songs never chart nationally, I consider a hit to be any song that makes the Hot 100.

Let me explain it this way: Charts are only important in their time. They aren't important in terms of the long term sustainability of a song.

Consider this: Hank Williams Sr. was a rock star in his time, and managed to get 18 #1 hits plus a bunch more that are considered standards in just five short years between 1948 and his death in 1953. By contrast, Webb Pierce had the same number of #1s, his career lasted 20 years, and was the #1 most spun artist of the 50s, while Hank was #5. So which name is the most familiar, and whose songs continue to live today? Morale of the story: Having hits in their time doesn't guarantee those hits will stand the TEST of time, and continue to get airplay after the artist is gone. It takes work to keep music familiar in the minds of the public, and that's what matters most when you're picking songs to play on the radio.
 
I know, I know. This is the familiar argument that "a song that was a hit then is not necessarily a hit now." Maybe we should use the past tense when discussing old songs. (What was it Groucho once said? "Yes, we're past tents---we're living in bungalows now.") Do you have any objections to me saying that Frenesi, Paper Doll, My Blue Heaven, Cheek To Cheek and Rum & Coca-Cola were hits? If those songs no longer get airplay, that doesn't take away the "hitdom" they enjoyed when they were originally on the chart. By the way, I like most of Webb Pierce's songs, especially I Ain't Never (later remade by Mel Tillis), No Love Have I (later remade by Gail Davies), and Tupelo County Jail. When KLAC switched to a country format in 1970, they played a lot of Webb Pierce songs---and Hank Snow, Hank Williams, Bob Wills, Spade Cooley, Molly Bee, the Wilburn Brothers and other "old-timey" artists. By the end of the decade, all those artists were off the playlist, with the exception of Snow's 1974 hit Hello Love.

Yes, there are similarities between KLAC in the 1970s and KRTH in the 2010s.
 
What a long, strange trip this has been (is?) So far we've passed thru the Eagles, the Beatles, the Beach Boys, the Starland Vocal Band, Chet Huntley, Gene Autry, the Pacific Electric street cars and the Edsel (not to mention the Mongoose Civique, even though I did.) Who and/or what next, one can only wonder...Harold Stassen? Irish McCalla? Burma-Shave? Wax lips? I can hardly wait...
 
Remember the Julius Caesar parody that appeared in the November 1955 issue of Mad, back when the publicatioin was still a ten-cent comic book? Artist Wally Wood included a set of Burma-Shave signs in the artwork. Between 1925 and 1963, Burma-Shave brushless shaving cream advertised via a series of signs---usually six---that appeared alongside hundreds of highways in almost every state. Each series of signs usually contained a short poem and the last sign always included the brand name. Wood's art featured four signs proclaiming, in sequence, "Be like a noble...not a knave...Caesar uses...Burma-Shave."

Now, how about those wax lips...?
 
If those songs no longer get airplay, that doesn't take away the "hitdom" they enjoyed when they were originally on the chart.

I agree 100%. I've been a chart-watcher since I was 8 years old. Thankfully, today I get paid to watch them. It's a childhood dream come true. It's amazing how many artists have had incredible success, but never paid attention to their legacy. In Webb's case, the only thing we know about him today is he had a swimming pool shaped like a guitar. But most people can name at least one song written by Hank Williams. Sonny James had more #1 hits than The Beatles, but who do we remember? It's not easy to create music that will last. That's what radio is interested in. We're not historians, we're broadcasters. (although some of us are both).
 
Michael, by what standards are you judging whether a song was a hit? The Doors' Break On Through got to #21 on the KHJ Boss 30 but stalled at #126 on Billboard's Bubbling Under chart. In Los Angeles it was a hit. I could name hundreds of other songs that were big in Los Angeles or other cities but did not doo well nationally. Considering how many good songs never chart nationally, I consider a hit to be any song that makes the Hot 100.

Somewhere in an equally lengthy thread in the "Classic Hits" forum, I did a breakdown of Billboard's charts a year or so ago. Airplay wasn't factored in (despite a couple of false starts) until 1981, so prior to that, the Hot 100 was an accounting of sales at the wholesale level.

If I can find that post and paste it into this discussion, I will...but basically, there's a bigger difference in retail sales between a song that was #1 and one that was #10 than there was between one that was #11 and one that was #40. And it gets worse from there. There was very little difference in the number of copies sold for a song that was #41 and a song that was #100.

It varies by song and year (singles sales peaked in 1974 and fell rapidly after that---and a low-charting single can be offset if the album containing it goes platinum at the same time), but I'd have a hard time calling anything below #15 a hit...and in some cases, #12. Those would be "near-misses"...and once you get past #40 (and probably #30), you're talking stiffs.

And again, this is speaking historically. As TheBigA says, charts are only important in their time. They measure one song's wholesale (prior to 1981) sales compared to another's for the week of that chart only. They are not cumulative. And they are irrelevant in gauging that song's popularity years or decades later.
 
They are not cumulative. And they are irrelevant in gauging that song's popularity years or decades later.

There are ways to track cumulative information. Consider all the years that Dark Side of the Moon, Tapestry, and Eagles Greatest Hits remained in the Billboard charts. Patsy Cline's Greatest Hits may have the all time record. That doesn't mean you hear "Walkin' After Midnight" all the time. But you go into any country bar, and you're likely to hear "Crazy" on the Jukebox. I like to look at artist setlists. What is their encore song? That's probably the one radio is playing.
 
Found what I wrote...turns out it was more than a year and a half ago...but it illustrates how little you could sell at retail and still get reasonably far up the Hot 100:

(begin quoted material)

In several threads, we've been discussing Billboard Hot 100 chart numbers from the 1960s, 70s and 80s and various points have been scattered across threads. I thought it might be helpful to have everything in one place.

Thanks to Casey Kasem and American Top 40, a lot of Americans grew up thinking Billboard was the ultimate authority on record sales in this country. Billboard certainly seized on the spotlight afforded by AT40 to begin marketing itself that way. But until Soundscan in the 90s, it simply wasn't true.

Prior to that, Billboard was an industry magazine that focused on the inside baseball of music and entertainment. Its record charts tracked the wholesale end of the business....copies of albums and singles shipped from the record labels to distributors and record stores. There was no attempt to determine how many of those copies actually made it into the hands of paying customers.

The system was easily corruptible. Record labels could over-ship records, essentially putting free stock into the hands of the distributors, in order to goose early chart numbers...the idea being that record store owners (the real target audience for the charts) would see the record debut big, and place legitimate orders. The label would make it up on the back end if the tactic worked.

The ultimate expression of that approach came in the 70s, when albums began to "ship Platinum". The record label would press a million copies and ship them in week one. Billboard would report the album as debuting Platinum (with a correspondingly high chart number). Record store owners would order up big. Trouble was, often those records wouldn't sell to real customers. In nine months, the majority would be quietly shipped back to the label, melted down and the vinyl recycled. The "Sgt. Pepper" movie soundtrack of 1978 is probably the most notorious example. So few of those sold at retail that the joke in the industry was that it "shipped Platinum and returned double Platinum". Very likely only 100,000 or so copies sold. But if you look at Billboard back issues or the Joel Whitburn books based on the Billboard charts, you see a #1 album that sold more than a million copies (in its news pages, Billboard dutifully reported on returns, but only on an industry-wide basis, every few months...never mentioning labels, artists or specific records by name).

But let's factor out shenanigans and look at how the chart worked when everybody was playing it straight.

A record's first week on the Hot 100 wasn't an indicator of how many people bought the record, but a snapshot of how many wholesale copies had been shipped to distributors. So debut numbers were virtually useless. The next couple of weeks worth of chart action were stores ordering first-time stock.

If a record peaked at #50 or below, that wasn't a "Hot 100 hit", it was a record that most record stores didn't think was worth stocking (or re-stocking beyond their initial 5 or 10 copy order). #40 wasn't much better, nor #30. Those basically indicate that more (but by no means all) stores placed an order, but doesn't suggest that demand was high enough for them to ever have to re-stock.

Above that, it's important to look at where a record peaks with this in mind: Let's say a record moved 25-20 last week (again, we're traveling back in time to the 60s-80s...pre-Soundscan). That suggests that stores were optimistic about the record and bought copies. But what if it slides to 24 this week? That means the optimism on the part of the record stores came after the record had already peaked with the record buyers. They were ordering stock when it was at 25 expecting it to go Top 15 or higher. But it went the other way. That "Top 20 hit" was actually a #25 wholesale record that became overstocked compared to buyer demand that week.

So, was the Hot 100 in any way reflecting the true popularity of records?

Well, any record that made the Top 10 by climbing over a period of several weeks probably was legit. Those chart jumps and bullets ("Stars", as Billboard called them) were indicative of more orders for a record being made this week than the week before. Sometimes that could be accomplished simply by more stores placing first-time orders...but the longer the timespan, the more likely it was that the stores were replacing stock that they had sold to paying customers.

Even records that debuted big fast (a new Beatles, for example) were probably legit if they stayed high on the charts for a certain period of time. But a rapid fall-off from a high chart number suggests that big peak was record stores anticipating demand that wasn't really there.

Which is why you've seen me say that anything peaking under #15 really isn't a hit....and a lot of things that peaked between #11 and #15 weren't, either (Royal Scots Dragoon Guards "Amazing Grace", anyone?). Because of what the Hot 100 measured (store owner optimism), a record that cracks #20 is a record the store owners believed could go Top 10. Those that didn't under-performed expectations. They weren't "gotta haves".

There's one exception to that rule: There are some records that were strong performers in certain markets, but it just didn't translate nationally. Tower of Power's "You're Still A Young Man" was a huge record in Los Angeles and San Francisco....Top 5, in fact. But it peaked at #29 in Billboard. Not enough stores stocking or selling it elsewhere (TOP was a California band).

Most radio stations did their own local charts, so Billboard's numbers weren't a factor in airplay back in the day. For millions of Americans, a chunk of Casey Kasem's countdown each Sunday included songs they only heard when listening to AT40, because their local stations weren't playing those records.

Which means the people in those cities who didn't listen to AT40 every week...didn't hear them at all.

(end quoted material)
 
When KLAC switched to a country format in 1970, they played a lot of Webb Pierce songs---and Hank Snow, Hank Williams, Bob Wills, Spade Cooley, Molly Bee, the Wilburn Brothers and other "old-timey" artists. By the end of the decade, all those artists were off the playlist, with the exception of Snow's 1974 hit Hello Love.

Yes, there are similarities between KLAC in the 1970s and KRTH in the 2010s.
Absolutely. And absolutely not.

Country music in the 1970s still had much in common, sound-wise, with the classics of the three previous decades. KLAC had that advantage over top-40, which couldn't go farther back than the late-1950s, and KLAC had a much larger library as a result. But -- and this is a similarity with today's KRTH -- they still only played the big, time-honored hits, and the farther back in time they went in selecting gold the fewer songs by any artist were considered for airplay.

Where the two stations are dissimilar is that the commonality of country's sound back then has no parallel with contemporary pop music. KRTH can't go deep because you hit a point in music history where the songs stop working together and (with a relative few exceptions) the oldest songs start clashing with the newer songs. And it is those aural "trainwrecks" that jar listeners into changing stations.

If it helps in understanding the similarities, note that today's country stations do not go very far back in their gold selections. Even Cumulus' new "Nash Icons" format, which is all "classics", doesn't go much farther back than around 1987-88, because that was the point on the timeline where country music started sounding more "pop" and the songs from the 1960s and 1970s sounded "dated" (never mind the ones that were even older).

Programming is all about creating a consistent sound image that pleases a high number of listeners in the target demographic and maintaining that consistency so that those listeners tune in often, even for short periods of time. That is how you build the ratings, which is how the ad dollars come in, which is the measure of success.

A discussion of why that approach does not please the handful of listeners whose sense of audio aesthetics are contrary to the masses will always fall on deaf ears in the industry, because we program based on the definition I described in the preceding paragraph ... out of necessity.
 
Even Cumulus' new "Nash Icons" format, which is all "classics", doesn't go much farther back than around 1987-88, because that was the point on the timeline where country music started sounding more "pop" and the songs from the 1960s and 1970s sounded "dated" (never mind the ones that were even older).

I don't know about that. You listen to Crystal Gayle or Anne Murray in the 70s, and they were pretty mushy in the pop sound. Randy Travis made his debut in 1986, and he along with Ricky Skaggs and George Strait were the new traditionalists, opening the door for Alan Jackson and Garth Brooks.

I believe, based on what I'm reading, that Nash Icon starts where it does in order to meet certain demographic requirements, more than fitting a particular sound.
 
Based on BigA's criteria, I have come up with a list of the five biggest hits of all time:

1. Amazing Grace
2. White Christmas
3. The Star-Spangled Banner
4. God Bless America
5. The can't-get-it-out-of-your-head theme song from Disney's it's a small world attraction :)
 
K.M., I met Stoney Richards in 1984 shortly after KLAC went to a "country gold" format. A few songs from the 1950s and early '60s were played, but only the biggest hits, such as Crazy, El Paso, Detroit City, I Walk The Line, I'm Movin' On, Young Love, Your Cheatin' Heart and He'll Have To Go. I asked why KLAC wasn't playing Bob Wills, Webb Pierce, Gene Autry, Red Foley, Jimmy Wakely and other such artists. Stoney said that the songs of those artists are two-track or four-track recordings and "don't sound as technologically advanced as the music of today." My reply: "Listeners probably don't care about the number of tracks used for a recording. They just want to hear the older songs." Stoney then said, "For every person who wants to hear Webb Pierce, there will be someone else who doesn't."

What he was saying is that KLAC plays only those songs that have "mass appeal." If I didn't know better, I'd say that K.M. Richards and Stoney Richards are the same person! :)
 
Stoney said that the songs of those artists are two-track or four-track recordings and "don't sound as technologically advanced as the music of today." My reply: "Listeners probably don't care about the number of tracks used for a recording. They just want to hear the older songs." Stoney then said, "For every person who wants to hear Webb Pierce, there will be someone else who doesn't."

One of the stories that I've heard has to do with the recording of Heartbreak Hotel by Elvis. It was done at a low cost studio in Nashville, and apparently RCA executives were horrified at the sound of it. They immediately approved the building of a studio in Nashville where they would have more control over the sound. That studio is known today as RCA Studio B, although then it was simply the RCA Studio. A block away was the quonset hut studio built by Owen Bradley where he recorded Patsy Cline and Loretta Lynn. Those two were the primary studios used by country artists at the time. Of course, Bob Wills, Gene Autry, Red Foley, and others weren't recorded in Nashville. They were more Texas swing artists than Nashville Sound/Country-politan artists, and that may be more of the difference.

Having said all that, I've never heard anyone discuss recording technology when deciding which songs to play. It's more about arrangements, lyrics, melodies, and the artists themselves. I'm often surprised how some songs that, to me, sound a little hokey were actually recorded in the same studio using the same equipment as songs that have remained among the most-played of all time.
 
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