Let's Give Joan Rivers Her Due

[landtuna]

Fox is not the equal of the Big 3 networks and never has been.

 

[umfan]

And yet they regularly outdraw one or more of those networks.

They are an equal. That may not be saying much, but it is accurate.

 

[FredLeonard]

And yet they regularly outdraw one or more of those networks.

They are an equal. That may not be saying much, but it is accurate.

Once again, more misinformation. The above statement is NOT accurate.

Fact: In the last season, Fox did not have a show ranked higher than 17th and it was their only show in the top 20 ("American Idol" on Wednesday). One additional show in the top 30 ("American Idol" on Thursday). Two more in the top 40 ("Sleepy Hollow" and "Bones"). Two more in the top 50 ("The Following" and "Almost Human"). Most Fox shows are much further down list. Yes, Fox is an "equal" - to the CW.

Anyone is welcome to look for themselves.

And let's see how "equal" Fox is. No morning show. No daytime schedule. No dinner-hour news. Only two hours in prime time. And no late night show since the Joan Rivers debacle. Yup, equal to the CW. The only real audience grabbers Fox has, besides Idol, is the NFL and the MLB. Both of those say nothing about programming ability, just about Rupert's willingness to spend money. And despite those sports franchises, the rest of the Fox schedule remains at the edge of the map.

Try telling the truth, Fan. It's really much easier.

 

[ShawnHill1]

She was better as a daytime host.

A lot of people forget about her daytime talk show, which had a about good 5-year run, and was certainly far better than the late night debacle.

 

[SteveRichards]

And no late night show since the Joan Rivers debacle.

Actually, there was the Chevy Chase debacle in 1993, but by and large, your assessment in regard to the current state of Fox is correct.

 

[vchimpanzee]

Thanks, Fan.

Joan had some great lines. One of my favorites was rant she got into in her last appearance on "Fresh Air from WHYY" with Terry Gross. Joan was going on about the condescending way older people are treated and referred to. She didn't much like "senior citizen" but her least favorite was the practice of broadcasters referring to a person as "80 years young." Joan said, "that's like me going on the Today show and saying 'Al Roker is 300 pounds thin'."

She didn't seem old, but maybe that's because of all the work she had done. Her hair always looked like that of a younger person.

I was concerned that what happened to her might have been because of trying to do more to look young, but I just heard on the radio it was something about her voice. It's hard to believe something so simple could have such tragic results.

I especially feel bad for Melissa because they seemed so close.

Just this week (apparently written before any of this) Amy Dickinson (Ann Landers' replacement at The Tribune) said no one should criticize another's fashion except Joan Rivers on the Red Carpet.

I wanted nothing to do with her Red Carpet rants and now I wish I could see them. I mean new ones. I guess the old ones are available for viewing somewhere.

Al did finally lose the weight. At least as of New Year's Day he still didn't look like himself. Wow, has it been that long since I've seen him. Surely I'll see him Thanksgiving Day.

 

[Thomps2525]

According to TMZ today, the autopsy on Rivers' body is completed but the "cause and manner of death" can not be determined until further studies and toxicology tests can be done.

http://www.tmz.com/2014/09/05/joan-rivers-autopsy-medical-examiner-cause-of-death/#ixzz3CTlcvPlV

 

[FredLeonard]

Actually, there was the Chevy Chase debacle in 1993, but by and large, your assessment in regard to the current state of Fox is correct.

Now I'm trying to remember what I was doing during the five weeks Chevy's show was on. I guess Joan's show was long-running by comparison.

Fox launched Joan's late night show about six months before they started feeding a prime-time schedule - one night a week during the summer when the Big 3 were into re-runs. Several prospective affiliates refused to take Fox in prime-time if they had to carry the late night show, which caused Fox to drop her just after the prime-time launch.

 

[JeffM]

If I recall correctly, Fox also had a short-lived SNL-style late night sketch show called "The Wilton-North Report." And like I said, buying out TV Guide allowed News Corporation to plug the bejeezus out of Fox and its shows. The running joke around the TVG offices in those early days was that Murdoch wanted the cover headline to read "WATCHING MARRIED WITH CHILDREN CURES CANCER!!"

 

[landtuna]

Once again, more misinformation. The above statement is NOT accurate.

Thanks Fred. You stated the specifics much better than I could have.

 

[landtuna]

Back on the Giving Joan Rivers Her Due topic:

I have repeatedly read these past couple of days how much of a glass ceiling Rivers broke during her career. That might have been somewhat true for female stand-up comediennes but it sure isn't true of female comediennes in general.

There have been a dozen or so well known female comediennes in movies and TV long before Joan Rivers sat on Johnny Carson's couch. Think Lucille Ball, Joan Davis, Phillis Diller, Carol Burnett, Lily Tomlin, Kathy Griffin, Katherine Hepburn, Betty White, Claudette Colbert, Gracie Allen and I'm not back to the dozens who played in the early days of motion pictures yet.

Rivers played a certain type of character that the above didn't (think of a female Don Rickles) and that is why we remember her but she wasn't ever in the leading list of funny ladies historically.

 

[TheBigA]

Think Lucille Ball, Joan Davis, Phillis Diller, Carol Burnett, Lily Tomlin, Kathy Griffin, Katherine Hepburn, Betty White, Claudette Colbert, Gracie Allen and I'm not back to the dozens who played in the early days of motion pictures yet.

You're also not including any of the black comediennes like Moms Mabley. She was before most of the folks on your list. Then how about Minnie Pearl? Howdy!

 

[landtuna]

You're also not including any of the black comediennes like Moms Mabley. She was before most of the folks on your list. Then how about Minnie Pearl? Howdy!

I didn't try to list every single female but obviously there were dozens and dozens more and a number of them began in the business before Rivers. Joan Rivers might be a beloved performer for a lot of people but she was not a trail blazer as has often been claimed.

 

[FredLeonard]

Tuna, don't worry about Mr. A. Whatever you post, he will find some nit to pick.

But you are right. Joan had a good career but she was not the Neil Armstrong of women in comedy or women starring in television (or old time radio). The "glass ceiling" is a myth. Are there more men than women at the top in comedy. Yes. Why? I don't know but it's not because women are shut-out. Why are there disproportionately large proportions of Jews or Blacks in comedy? Several theories about that. In any case, the original title of this thread is giving Joan her due. Fine. But seems like some here want to give her credit she is not due.

Funny how little historical memory some people have. When Ellen DeGeneres dies, somebody will call her a "trailblazer," too and Joan will have fallen off their mental radar - just like scores of funny women in vaudeville, radio and live TV have.



Here are some real "trail blazers" for women in comedy... Comediennes in Vaudeville, Radio and early TV.

Nora Bayes - also a singer. She is portrayed singing "Over There" in an army camp with George M. Cohan in "Yankee Doodle Dany."
Fanny Brice - they made a Broadway and movie musical about her.
Helen Broderick - appeared in some movies, notably with Astaire and Rogers. Had a son who starred in "Highway Patrol."
Judy Canova - featured on Bob Hope's radio show.
Imogene Coca - star of "Your Show of Shows" and her own eponymous show.
Marion Davies - funny performer remembered today as Hearst's mistress.
Joan Davis - star of "I Married Joan."
Fifi D'Orsay - mildly naughty French Canadian comedienne.
Marie Dressler - best remembered for silents and early talkies.
Gracie Fields - British musical hall comedienne, frequent performer on Ed Sullian.
Charlotte Greenwood - Funny vaudevillian, remembered as Aunt Eller in film version of "Oklahoma!"
Helen Kane - Inspiration for Betty Boop.
Pert Kelton - Original Alice Kramden before being blacklisted.
Beatrice Lilly - Canadian vaudevillian often featured on early TV variety shows.
Mary Livingstone - Performed in vaudeville and radio with husband Jack Benny.
Marjorie Main - Remembered as "Ma Kettle."
Mae Questel - Vaudeville comedienne remembered as voice of "Betty Boop" and "Olive Oyl."
Amanda Randolph - Chittlin' Circuit star remembered as "Louise" on "Make Room for Daddy."
Martha Raye - Bette Midler's role in "For The Boys" based on her.
Penny Singleton - Vaudeville comedienne remembered as "Blondie" in movies.
Mae West - You know who she was.

And those are just the ones whose names I recognize.

 

[TheBigA]

When Ellen DeGeneres dies, somebody will call her a "trailblazer," too and Joan will have fallen off their mental radar

I think that's true. When people die, everyone look for nice things to say.

 

[CTListener]

I think that's true. When people die, everyone look for nice things to say.

I don't recall that happening after Saddam Hussein's death.

 

[FredLeonard]

I think that's true. When people die, everyone look for nice things to say.

Not everyone.

And it's not just being nice. Memory - except for movie stars who remain in public view long after they've died - only goes back so far. Every generation thinks they invented sex. And every generation only remembers who made them laugh, not who made their parents laugh. They probably think their parents never laughed. Same thing happens with music; most people only pay attention to music popular when they were between six and 24. Before that is old; after that is noise.

It's one thing to say something nice. It's another to ignore or discredit the people who were "trailblazers" further back - who are also dead.

 

[JeffM]

As long as everyone's dropping names now, I might as well throw in a few meself...

Mabel Normand - A great of silent film comedy, starring opposite Charlie Chaplin and "Fatty" Arbuckle, as well as on her own.

Gracie Allen (with husband George Burns,) Marian Jordan (with husband Jim as "Fibber McGee and Molly,") Portland Hoffa (with husband Fred Allen,) Jane Ace (with husband Goodman as "The Easy Aces,") Harriet Hilliard Nelson (with husband Ozzie in their own show, and before that as a regular with Red Skelton)...all from radio; Gracie and Harriet very much on TV as well.

Vivian Vance - Lucille Ball's perfect "sounding board."

Elaine May - Teamed with Mike Nichols or on her own.

June Foray - The female counterpart to Mel Blanc; character voices in over a thousand animated cartoons.

 

[firepoint525]

What seems to be getting lost in all this discussion of Rivers' Late Show in the '80s is that it was intended as a vehicle to attract younger stars (and thus, younger viewers) to late-night TV. Whether this was successful is open for debate. There was some concern that anyone who appeared on the Late Show would be blacklisted from also appearing on Tonight, but it seems to me that NBC didn't even want the type of stars who would have appeared on the Late Show, whether they actually appeared there or not.

As for Joan, the failure of this particular show was one of only a very few (albeit a very high profile one) in an otherwise very successful career. She had a talk show in the '60s (That Show or something like that) that only lasted one season. (Maybe she should have avoided shows with very bland names!) But her daytime talk show (I never saw it) lasted for years, and of course, her deal with QVC lasted many many years.

 

[FredLeonard]

Younger viewers? In 1986, Joan was 53 - already out of the money demos - and just eight years younger than Johnny.

In contrast, Arsenio was 30.