It's possible to broadcast music with surround information like Dolby Atmos over FM Stereo signals? I was concerned about Multipath distortion as 38khz carrier would work totally different with Atmos running their "magic" on the L- R- signals. I've done some surround tests on past with a test transmitter and had good results. even broadcasting Dolby ProLogic 2.
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Dolby Atmos over the air?
- Thread starter mpxbroadcast
- Start date
Beginning about ~50 years ago, some FM stereo radio stations were broadcasting "matrix" quadraphonic sound (using the Sansui QS or CBS SQ system), no addition FCC approval was/is needed.
In the mid-1970s, the BBC developed Matrix H for quadraphonic/surround sound FM stereo broadcasting.
Also, the Dorren system for discrete quadraphonic FM broadcasting was approved by the FCC in the mid-1980s, it can still be used to broadcast stereo and mono compatible quadraphonic sound on FM (USA only) although there are currently no discrete quadraphonic FM radio receivers.
A Dolby Atmos specific FM broadcasting system (to transmit 11 channels - 7 speakers in a circle around the listener and 4 speakers overhead) would need FCC approval (could be implemented w/digital audio modulating a new subcarrier in an FM stereo signal, for example).
A Dolby Atmos signal also could be downmixed to QS or SQ or H and transmitted via FM stereo.
Kirk Bayne
In the mid-1970s, the BBC developed Matrix H for quadraphonic/surround sound FM stereo broadcasting.
Also, the Dorren system for discrete quadraphonic FM broadcasting was approved by the FCC in the mid-1980s, it can still be used to broadcast stereo and mono compatible quadraphonic sound on FM (USA only) although there are currently no discrete quadraphonic FM radio receivers.
A Dolby Atmos specific FM broadcasting system (to transmit 11 channels - 7 speakers in a circle around the listener and 4 speakers overhead) would need FCC approval (could be implemented w/digital audio modulating a new subcarrier in an FM stereo signal, for example).
A Dolby Atmos signal also could be downmixed to QS or SQ or H and transmitted via FM stereo.
Kirk Bayne
No, not in discrete, native independent audio channels. It could be simulated by techniques that are more capable and amazing as time goes on... the audio equivalent of deep fake videos.
As you know, historic, standard analog FM Stereo is a two-channel system. Mono (L+R) and difference (L-R). The present matrix sorts it out to Left and Right. Because L+R remains in its original place, FM stereo is compatible with mono radios.
Compatibility with existing consumer receivers was the goal. Same with color TV, your black and white TV still worked. As the world changes the need for long term compatibility may fade.
mpxbroadcast- if you experimented with adding Dolby or other encoders to a FM stereo broadcast system and got good results, this means you are interested in audio processing. You must be asking this because you like sound, correct? Do you seriously believe the radio industry needs surround sound to help reach an audience? Radio is already neck deep in processing now. Have fun, and perhaps something you do will capture the attention of folks in a way they enjoy.
As you know, historic, standard analog FM Stereo is a two-channel system. Mono (L+R) and difference (L-R). The present matrix sorts it out to Left and Right. Because L+R remains in its original place, FM stereo is compatible with mono radios.
Compatibility with existing consumer receivers was the goal. Same with color TV, your black and white TV still worked. As the world changes the need for long term compatibility may fade.
mpxbroadcast- if you experimented with adding Dolby or other encoders to a FM stereo broadcast system and got good results, this means you are interested in audio processing. You must be asking this because you like sound, correct? Do you seriously believe the radio industry needs surround sound to help reach an audience? Radio is already neck deep in processing now. Have fun, and perhaps something you do will capture the attention of folks in a way they enjoy.
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I believe back in the day, recall seeing a demo at NAB where Ibquity was showing how HD radio could be used to send Dolby 5.1. Like anything else there are two major hurdles to market:
1. Licensing costs. Transmitting Dolby-licensed products aren't cheap. Who's going to pay for that? If stations, then it's a non-starter.
2. Content. Just like back in the 80's with Quad, if artists aren't interested in producing their music in 5.1, you have no, or limited content to broadcast. This isn't the 60's or 70's. Consumers don't go running out to buy some special device anymore just for the device, unless it's the latest smartphone that already gives them everything they want and need.
Kelly A- I thought about mentioning possibility of sending additional channels for surround sound on HD Radio. Decided not to,
given the bit rate available for two stereo channels in present HD Radio system. The HD Radio ship has sailed, and we are lashed to the mast of the bit rate.
Streaming is our path to delivering better audio to our audience, without a watermark.
given the bit rate available for two stereo channels in present HD Radio system. The HD Radio ship has sailed, and we are lashed to the mast of the bit rate.
Streaming is our path to delivering better audio to our audience, without a watermark.
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ATSC 3.0 - Immersive Audio
groups.google.com
ATSC 3.0 can deliver high-quality audio, including immersive formats
Kirk Bayne
Yeah, something like mpxbroadcast proposes would be far better suited to an ATSC or DVB-S audio-only channel. The currrent (or future) FM stereo and Ibiquity systems have many, many unresolvable hurdles to overcome before they could come close to being able to support Atmos.
Then, of course, there's Kelly A's point #2 above.
Then, of course, there's Kelly A's point #2 above.
That's a mental image I will recall every time the quality of HD comes into discussion...
But, nobody can hear it, unless you're watching...say it together now: TV which is encoded Dolby Atmos.^^^ATSC 3.0 - Immersive Audio
ATSC 3.0 can deliver high-quality audio, including immersive formats
Actually, ATSC 1.0 can transmit multiple Dolby Digital 5.1 audio programs in a subchannel (perhaps with just a still picture for the video), but ATSC 1.0 wasn't designed for mobile reception.
ATSC 3.0 audio only receivers could be built, thereby bringing Dolby Atmos audio to vehicles.
Kirk Bayne
ATSC 3.0 audio only receivers could be built, thereby bringing Dolby Atmos audio to vehicles.
Kirk Bayne
But, there won't be ATSC 3.0 personal or vehicle radios made, ever. And what about content? Would people be interested in listening to the handful of movie soundtracks in their car? Because you won't find musical artists interested in producing their music in some expensive-to-license surround sound format.
But what artists would produce their music in a surround format, including paying the encoding licenses to Dolby? Answer: None. That was tried years ago, and it landed with a thud. And that's when doing so didn't include expensive licensing agreements.
And you think a vehicle receiver manufacturer would go out of their way to include a different tuner which maybe, on an outside chance, would have something in surround that their clients would want? I think you're missing a few steps in the process.
I know you're beating the dead horse that surround audio is something that will change the world, but go back to my points here:
1. Licensing costs. Transmitting Dolby-licensed products aren't cheap. Who's going to pay for that? If stations, then it's a non-starter.
2. Content. Just like back in the 80's with Quad, if artists aren't interested in producing their music in 5.1, you have no, or limited content to broadcast. This isn't the 60's or 70's. Consumers don't go running out to buy some special device anymore just for the device, unless it's the latest smartphone that already gives them everything they want and need.
You're not taking into account the number one and two barriers: Cost, and available content for listening.
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No i don't believe radio needs surround sound to help reach audience. With the Dolby Atmos tech reaching people with only stereo systems i was interested in knowing if the psychoacoustic magic they do could harm reception of traditional stereo multiplexing. Don't put words on my mouth please!
Take a look at Dolby Atmos marketing on streaming on-demand media. It's increasing every day... But if people on radio market keep thinking like it's still 2001 no problem...
I don't think Greg was intending on "putting words in your mouth". Your post wasn't very clear. I suggest working on getting that chip off your shoulder.
Analog multiplexed surround audio that involved phase shifting would not be compliant with mono reception. That would make it incompatible with international and U.S. broadcast standards.
^^^ That was tried in the 70s, FM stations broadcasting matrix quad records (SQ/QS/Dolby/H etc.). It didn't work very well then, as mono compatibility went, and wouldn't now!
The old CBS SQ quadraphonic matrix system had/has good mono and stereo compatibility (that was a major design objective of SQ), all 4 corner (quad) signals appear at equal volume in mono and SQ can be somewhat decoded by just listening to SQ matrix encoded content with stereo headphones (no special decoder needed).
Dolby Atmos and other surround sound content can be downmixed to quadraphonic and then SQ encoded for broadcast over existing FM stereo radio stations.
Here's a Dolby surround sound encoded AM stereo broadcast:
(I just listened to this w/Dolby Pro-Logic 2 music mode - the quad channel IDs were properly located, but my surround sound system doesn't have a mono mode, maybe someone here could listen to this in mono and hear if the LB and RB content is attenuated a lot)
Kirk Bayne
Dolby Atmos and other surround sound content can be downmixed to quadraphonic and then SQ encoded for broadcast over existing FM stereo radio stations.
Here's a Dolby surround sound encoded AM stereo broadcast:
(I just listened to this w/Dolby Pro-Logic 2 music mode - the quad channel IDs were properly located, but my surround sound system doesn't have a mono mode, maybe someone here could listen to this in mono and hear if the LB and RB content is attenuated a lot)
Kirk Bayne
Mono and stereo compatibility is why it was approved for testing live on U.S. stations fifty years ago. End result was: Nobody cared.
You still haven't answered the question: Why would anyone do that? Quad was four demodulated discrete channels. 5.1 is five. In traditional analog multiplex audio, where would you put the fifth channel? There would also have to be a unique pilot to tell the receiver to decode surround. Oh, and since there are no generators or receivers to receive something like this, what manufacturer would build it?
The center channel and the .1 (of 5.1 source content) would be mixed equally into stereo L and R.
In the case of Dolby Atmos, labeled 7.1.4 (7 channels around the listener, 1 LFE/bass only channel, 4 overhead channels), the downmix to quadraphonic could be individually determined for each song or preset (as is the downmixing of Dolby Digital 5.1 to [stereo] Dolby Surround)
Any FM stereo broadcasting system will transmit and receive and output matrix quad encoded content with no modification and in the case of the SQ matrix, just listening to FM stereo matrix quad encoded content with regular stereo headphones does do partial quad decoding.
CBS did propose modulating the stereo pilot (a little) to indicate the broadcast of SQ quadraphonic matrix encoded content, but playing stereo thru an SQ decoder is harmless.
There is one new matrix quad decoder for SQ and QS:
involveaudio.com
Most home theater systems include some form of Dolby Surround decoder (stereo in - 4 or 5 channels out), Dolby Surround can provide a surround effect from SQ or QS matrix encoded content.
Kirk Bayne
In the case of Dolby Atmos, labeled 7.1.4 (7 channels around the listener, 1 LFE/bass only channel, 4 overhead channels), the downmix to quadraphonic could be individually determined for each song or preset (as is the downmixing of Dolby Digital 5.1 to [stereo] Dolby Surround)
Any FM stereo broadcasting system will transmit and receive and output matrix quad encoded content with no modification and in the case of the SQ matrix, just listening to FM stereo matrix quad encoded content with regular stereo headphones does do partial quad decoding.
CBS did propose modulating the stereo pilot (a little) to indicate the broadcast of SQ quadraphonic matrix encoded content, but playing stereo thru an SQ decoder is harmless.
There is one new matrix quad decoder for SQ and QS:
Surround Master V3 - INVOLVE AUDIO
involveaudio.com
Most home theater systems include some form of Dolby Surround decoder (stereo in - 4 or 5 channels out), Dolby Surround can provide a surround effect from SQ or QS matrix encoded content.
Kirk Bayne
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