Cleveland Radio June 23 Ratings

[radiofollower]

"Too bad. They ruined the music business."

Which, it turn, ruined local radio in the USA, athough, I still hear a lot of this action on local London radio.

 

[TheBigA]

"Too bad. They ruined the music business."

Which, it turn, ruined local radio in the USA, athough, I still hear a lot of this action on local London radio.

There are fewer radio stations in England. When US artists go there, they have nothing else to do, so doing British media is new and exciting. Doing US media can be tiring and boring. So artists avoid it when they can. It helps if you're willing to go to them at the venue, because getting around US cities isn't as easy as it used to be, and venues are sometimes a distance from the radio station. Someone has to charter a limo because the artists aren't driving and they're not taking a cab or Uber. It gets complicated.

The other side of it is that live interviews can be death on the radio if it's not a big star that everyone is interested in. Especially in PPM markets where you can watch as the attention of the listeners ramble. Those kinds of things make better podcasts. Then if people tune out (which they will do) it won't hurt your ratings.

 

[skiwest]

I rarely listen to music on any of the commercial stations. I do however listen to the various oldies show on the college stations which are live and local, as radio used to be at one time. Thank God for college radio. One has to wonder what radio will be like in another 20 or 30 years, if it still exists.

 

[radiofollower]

When US artists go there, they have nothing else to do

In London? You can't be serious.

The other side of it is that live interviews can be death on the radio if it's not a big star that everyone is interested in.

Maybe because most of the real music fans have abandoned broadcast radio due to the corporations imposing tight playlists which often miss new and exciting breaking artists. Once again, a self-inflicted wound by the broadcast radio folks.

 

[skiwest]

Speaking of tight playlists, what is the obsession with Jack & Diane? That song continues to get way too much airplay.

 

[TheBigA]

Maybe because most of the real music fans have abandoned broadcast radio due to the corporations imposing tight playlists which often miss new and exciting breaking artists. Once again, a self-inflicted wound by the broadcast radio folks.

Believe what you want to believe, but corporations aren't "imposing tight playlists." If you go back to the 60s, you'll see much tighter playlists. They only played 20 songs over and over. And people loved it. "Real music fans" want to make their own playlists, and they can do it if they want. Radio isn't a personal music service.

If you want interviews, I bet you'll hear some on August 4th when WMMS hosts a big concert.

 

[Nathan Obral]

Speaking of tight playlists, what is the obsession with Jack & Diane? That song continues to get way too much airplay.

The residuals help pay for all of John Mellencamp’s little pink houses, you see…

 

[DavidEduardo]

That's it? I think you just made my point. Music radio used to be more than just reading song titles, contests and station hype.

"Everything we did" should cover the spontaneous remarks and improvisations.

Both stations were personality based, and we found that developing a topic between sets of songs was easier if one did not have to wait through the songs and in-studio interruptions. In other words, if correctly done, it can be more original and spontaneous.

And that was almost 50 years ago.

 

[Yabadabado1]

Don't forget the "fake" interviews......ya know, where they send a prerecorded statement to the station along with questions that the DJ is supposed to ask to make it appear that the artists was in studio with the DJ. I don't remember what station it was but it was so obvious......DJ crystal clear voice and then the artist answering and you can hear the tape hiss almost as loud as the artist being interviewed. I would have asked some really dirty questions that would make the artists answer seem filthy as hell.....which is probably why they never let me do them.

 

[Santa fe]

The one sided interview is as old as wax cylinders. Back in the 1950's, legendary Cleveland media personality Bill Gordon made a name for himself by doing just what the poster said...asking fake questions to the recorded interview that made the "star" sound stupid or funny. My mother told me she laughed so hard at these bits she'd be crying. Talent is what it's about. Years ago, I heard the management warning "funny is money". That says it all.

 

[radiofollower]

Believe what you want to believe, but corporations aren't "imposing tight playlists."

What? Don't tell me that you think that the locals pick the music these days. And that playlists are not tight . "Jack and Diane" anyone?

If you go back to the 60s, you'll see much tighter playlists. They only played 20 songs over and over. And people loved it.

Yeah, until FM album radio started in the late 60s and people heard what they were missing.

 

[TheBigA]

What? Don't tell me that you think that the locals pick the music these days.

It depends on the station and the format. Remember: I work in this business. I know who's doing what. But I can tell you that if the corporate folks thought playing unknown songs by unknown artists would make them more money, they'd do it. It doesn't cost them a penny more to add extra songs to their playlists. They don't do it because they know it will hurt the ratings.

Yeah, until FM album radio started in the late 60s and people heard what they were missing.

That only lasted a couple of years until the consultants came in and started narrowing the focus. By 1978, Burkhart & Abrams started advising rock stations, including WMMS. What the consultants said was right, and it all worked. That's why people like you have such great memories of that time. Everything was going great until around 1993 and that's when the music industry changed.

 

[DavidEduardo]

The one sided interview is as old as wax cylinders. Back in the 1950's, legendary Cleveland media personality Bill Gordon made a name for himself by doing just what the poster said...asking fake questions to the recorded interview that made the "star" sound stupid or funny. My mother told me she laughed so hard at these bits she'd be crying. Talent is what it's about. Years ago, I heard the management warning "funny is money". That says it all.

Sidebar: in the early 60's, WCUY, the Cleveland Heights station I was a part-timer at, hired the "by then less wanted" Bill Gordon to do an afternoon show. Bill had a habit of yelling into the mike for "emphasis" and that would, more often than not, kick our decrepit Gates transmitter off the air. My job was to stand in the transmitter room to hit the "Plate On" button if Gordon kicked us off the air.

That lasted about 3 months, to all of our relief... including Gordon.

 

[DavidEduardo]

What? Don't tell me that you think that the locals pick the music these days. And that playlists are not tight . "Jack and Diane" anyone?

Actually, listeners at music tests pick the songs. Some big stations do only local tests, while smaller but similar markets share and/or rotate tests. But the result is that we find that tastes don't differ that much between markets and the same "big" songs tend to test identically in all of them.

Yeah, until FM album radio started in the late 60s and people heard what they were missing.

For a couple of years until "Superstars" sprung out of North Carolina and made most stations realize that "DJ Choice" and obscure album tracks did not work as well.

And, thanks, radiofollower. Your post made me realize I had not heard "Jack and Diane" for a number of weeks at least, so I am streaming it now to considerable enjoyment.

 

[radiofollower]

It depends on the station and the format. Remember: I work in this business. I know who's doing what. But I can tell you that if the corporate folks thought playing unknown songs by unknown artists would make them more money, they'd do it. It doesn't cost them a penny more to add extra songs to their playlists. They don't do it because they know it will hurt the ratings.

"Unknown songs by unknown artists". Somebody had to play new artists for the first time, or else we would still be listening to Bill Haley and The Comets. Stations like WMMS, WNEW-FM in New York, KSAN San Francisco in the 70s and early to mid-80s often broke "new and unknown acts" which were later picked up by the heavily consulted stations when the acts became successful. For example, MMS was very early on Patti Smith and helped make her a star to the point where limited, timid playlist M105 (who never got anywhere near MMS in the ratings) finally started to play her. Just one track, I might add. There are very few "breaker" stations around today, and that's one of the reasons that young people abandoned broadcast radio......the stations became obsessed with just playing the established acts and the whole enterprise got stale. Maybe not to 35+ or so who don't mind endless Eagles, Pink Floyd and Billy Joel, but unless you cultivate the lower demo, you will eventually be in big trouble.

That only lasted a couple of years until the consultants came in and started narrowing the focus. By 1978, Burkhart & Abrams started advising rock stations, including WMMS. What the consultants said was right, and it all worked. That's why people like you have such great memories of that time. Everything was going great until around 1993 and that's when the music industry changed.

WMMS may have been advised by Burkhart Abrams in 1978, but they evidently chose not to listen to them! Take a look at their playlist from 1978. Does that look like a Burkhart Abrams station music list? According to John Gorman's book, they entered into consultant deals to keep them away from competition and pretty much ignored them. So long as the consultants got paid, they didn't care.

Actually, listeners at music tests pick the songs. Some big stations do only local tests, while smaller but similar markets share and/or rotate tests. But the result is that we find that tastes don't differ that much between markets and the same "big" songs tend to test identically in all of them.

Not surprising, as the regionalism evident in rock radio for many years has been pretty much wiped out by the desire to just concentrate on the big acts. If that's all the people know, that's all they will respond to,

For a couple of years until "Superstars" sprung out of North Carolina and made most stations realize that "DJ Choice" and obscure album tracks did not work as well.

It depends on how the station laid out the music. Yes, there were some FM stations who let their jocks just run totally wild, but at the same time, there were stations like the aforementioned WMMS of the 70s and early-mid 80s, KSAN, WNEW-FM and a few others who knew how to break new music sprinkled among familiar material.

And, thanks, radiofollower. Your post made me realize I had not heard "Jack and Diane" for a number of weeks at least, so I am streaming it now to considerable enjoyment.

You must not live in Cleveland, where "Jack and Diane" is played endlessly on at least a half dozen stations.

 

[TheBigA]

Stations like WMMS, WNEW-FM in New York, KSAN San Francisco in the 70s and early to mid-80s often broke "new and unknown acts" which were later picked up by the heavily consulted stations when they became successful.

Yes I know. That was in the wild west, before those stations started getting ratings. Then in the mid-70s, their owners wanted to make money. That's when they hired consultants.

There are very few "breaker" stations around today, and that's one of the reasons that young people abandoned broadcast radio.

It depends on the format. Some formats are breaking a dozen new artists a year. Artists like Taylor Swift, Morgan Wallen, and Luke Combs were broken on country radio. It was done in a smart and organized way. Co-ordinated between radio & records. That kind of thing used to happen in rock. Until the labels got lazy and cheap, and stopped working with radio. But it's still like the good old days in country.

WMMS may have been advised by Burkhart Abrams in 1978, but they evidently chose not to listen to them!

John Gorman and Lee Abrams had a complicated relationship. Lee worked for Malrite, not Gorman. So they each did different things with the same goal, which was to make the station successful, and it worked.

 

[radiofollower]

Yes I know. That was in the wild west, before those stations started getting ratings. Then in the mid-70s, their owners wanted to make money. That's when they hired consultants.

Those stations that I mentioned (MMS, KSAN, WNEW-FM) all had very strong ratings long before the consultants. Partly because they knew how to break new music carefully and strategically, never playing two "breaker" songs in the same set. The total free form stations went down in flames because they didn't know how to reach the mass audience with a strategy which allowed room for new music yet understood the average person's tolerance level for the unfamiliar.

It depends on the format. Some formats are breaking a dozen new artists a year. Artists like Taylor Swift, Morgan Wallen, and Luke Combs were broken on country radio. It was done in a smart and organized way. Co-ordinated between radio & records. That kind of thing used to happen in rock. Until the labels got lazy and cheap, and stopped working with radio. But it's still like the good old days in country.

Yes, the rock record promoters are partly to blame. No doubt. In the soup is when MTV came on, many rock promoters abandoned (or cut back) attention to radio because they thought that this was the future of rock music consumption. Ha!

John Gorman and Lee Abrams had a complicated relationship. Lee worked for Malrite, not Gorman. So they each did different things with the same goal, which was to make the station successful, and it worked.

Lee was never allowed to touch the music on WMMS during the Gorman era.

 

[TheBigA]

Those stations that I mentioned (MMS, KSAN, WNEW-FM) all had very strong ratings long before the consultants.

When Rosko was at WNEW, they didn't have good ratings. After he quit, things got better. Tom Donohue died in 1975, and that's when they brought in consultants at KSAN.

Yes, the rock record promoters are partly to blame. No doubt. In the soup is when MTV came on, many rock promoters abandoned (or cut back) attention to radio because they thought that this was the future of rock music consumption.

As I said, then 1993 happened.

Lee was never allowed to touch the music on WMMS during the Gorman era.

Consultants never pick the music or tell stations what to play. But the labels work nationally, and so do consultants. That's where the strategy comes in. To have a local hit in Cleveland is OK, but the real money is when ALL of the stations are playing a song at the same time. That's the power of a hit song. Cleveland's Eric Carmen sang about it back in the 70s. He became an overnight sensation. Listen to the words of that song.

 

[Yabadabado1]

That only lasted a couple of years until the consultants came in and started narrowing the focus. By 1978, Burkhart & Abrams started advising rock stations, including WMMS. What the consultants said was right, and it all worked. That's why people like you have such great memories of that time. Everything was going great until around 1993 and that's when the music industry changed.

45 years ago, station I was at, plummeting ratings. When we were out of the studio, some of the DJs took it upon ourselves to ask the people what they'd like to hear on our station. Then the owners bring in the "insultant" and he institutes the EXACT OPPOSITE of what the people said they wanted to hear...tighten up the playlist, no more front/back announcing of songs, 13 seconds for any weather updates/PSAs etc., sort of like this [ www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6ZzEEaKC90 ], ditch the news, all talk kept to a minimum, INCREASE the commercial load to bring in more dough [must have taken a job with iheart years later] and to keep DJs from talking more, lose cross talk between DJs when shift changes happened...mostly applied to morning guy...and some other crap that he suggested that I cannot remember offhand. So what happened? Ratings cratered even lower then I thought possible. So instead of reversing the changes, ownership threw up their hands [as opposed to threw up in their hands] and sold the station off, resulting in format change, all personnel fired....even the janitor!

 

[TheBigA]

So instead of reversing the changes, ownership threw up their hands [as opposed to threw up in their hands] and sold the station off, resulting in format change, all personnel fired....even the janitor!

Here's what I've learned: There's a good way and a bad way to go about doing something. The advice wasn't bad. The suggestions they made were probably great, and would have worked had they won over the rank & file. They didn't, everyone was pissed, that attitude could be felt by the listeners, and a great plan was a flop. So sometimes, it's more about HOW you do something, than what you do.