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WHEN WILL "CORPORATE" FINALLY GET IT REGARDING DANCE/EDM?

T

TonySantiago

I know for the most part that posting this in here is "preaching to the choir", but it really has to be said, not just for New York but the entire country.

Over the past few years there have been explosive growth in terms of dance music festivals in the US, based on attendance. People have now been flocking to events such as Electric Zoo, Ultra Music Festival and Electric Daisy Carnival as well as smaller local events such as "Together" in Boston. In my wildest dreams I would have never thought 10 years ago that DJ's would be treated similar to "rock stars" and sell out outdoor venues to over 100,000+ people. Dance music/EDM has never been in a better position.

And while there has been small growth in terms of terrestrial this past year (Drive FX - Hudson Valley, Hot 107.1 - Denver and recently with Party 105 in Long Island going back to currents) there still is a BIG problem in terms of the major cities. And I DO get the reason why.....PPM.

Based on New York City, the last two major format changes involved musical formats going to "spoken word" formats such as news and sports. For a station such as 98.7 Kiss, an R&B station that I thought would be around "forever", to go ESPN definitely raised eyebrows...add to the fact that the station "merged" with competitor WBLS.

My big fear in that sense is that corporate is going to continue turning FM into the new "AM" in those major markets that have to contend with PPM. It's only a matter of "when", not "if" Sports Radio WFAN (660) goes onto the FM and the station that it would probably affect the most? 92.3 Now, since the other CBS O&O's in NYC (WCBS-FM 101.1 and WWFS-FM (Fresh 102.7) both bill better along with 660 on the AM billing well.

My point is this.....instead of concentrating on making FM the new AM and turning AM into a "ghetto" until the FCC decides to turn that bandwidth over elsewhere, the obvious musical growth in America is DANCE MUSIC/EDM. The money is obviously THERE based on sellouts to not just these events but arenas such as Madison Square Garden where the Swedish House Mafia sold out in 11 minutes, I think? The young crowd wants it and they ARE getting it via Internet stations, iTunes and yes, illegal downloads. Why corporate in radio is not recognizing this is beyond me but being scared of that "beast" known as PPM isn't going to help the radio industry in any way but that downward spiral.

I'm not going to bash on all corporate. Budweiser has used Avicii in ads. I forget what other ads were out there using DJs but there have been some.

My point. FM can STILL have that fighting chance as long as it can be innovative and stop sounding like the "McDonalds" of music. Dance/EDM is right there for the taking. The demand is clearly there for it. So instead of bringing another AM station to the FM for a simulcast, go with dance dammit!! :mad:
 
Couple of other bright notes recently in addition to the ones mentioned above:

Alt. rock station Live 105/San Francisco adding EDM to its regular rotation: Calvin Harris, Skrillex, Avicii and more. (While on the freeway today it was really cool after Sublime "What I Got" to hear the DJ talk over the ramp of "Levels" while taking a call on the air - after so many stagnant years for the alt. format nationwide, Live 105 really sounds fresh and ALIVE thanks to the infusion of EDM, solid imaging and good overall radio execution).

And Hot 97.5/Phoenix adding a lot more dance tracks to regular play, while retaining its CHR format.

While none of the above is the 100kw Pure Dance station in a major metro we all would love to see, there's no doubt that every step in the positive direction is a good thing when it comes to this music.
 
Tony, AM to FM revolution is just starting. As with anything this is about money not just PPM but how much a station can bring in. The new ESPN station in NYC is going to generate more revenue than the old format because of the machine of ESPN and sports. You start adding them becoming the official station for some of New Yorks pro teams, the owners will be swimming in dollars. FM sports just sounds better, no static.

EDM is on fire, but can it last? This is a completely different animal than we have worked with in the past. How do we program radio to embrace this movement? Are you going to play non stop songs that are Electro/Dubstep sounding? What about the pop remixes? I love the Dada Life mix of Justin Beiber but does Beiber work with an EDM audience? What do you do with the gold records? I have concerns that this will be a fad and in a couple of years we are back to where we were before. Everyone is trying to cash in on this movement. Paris Hilton now DJing and going on tour? Then you have the big name guys pulling a Britney Spears and pre recording sets and walking away with $100,000 for jumping up and down on a stage for maybe 2 hours, while everyone in attendance is dropping $70 or 80. From what I am hearing quite a few promoters are losing money booking these big names.


I personally have had to change things up here at Z889. Freestyle got pulled. Old pop remixes pulled. We increased the current base with more pure dance artists. We rebranded the station and are seriously going after the high school & college listening audience because they are the ones that embracing this movement more than anyone else. Im still shocked more college stations are not getting more involved with the format. Oh wait I forgot some 60 year old adviser is running them. Our 2nd stream is even more aggressive and playing a ton of imports.

Please dont take this as I am down on things but I do have concerns. I love that EDM is all over the place, there are some warning signs.
 
Dancerev889 said:
Tony, AM to FM revolution is just starting. As with anything this is about money not just PPM but how much a station can bring in. The new ESPN station in NYC is going to generate more revenue than the old format because of the machine of ESPN and sports. You start adding them becoming the official station for some of New Yorks pro teams, the owners will be swimming in dollars. FM sports just sounds better, no static.

EDM is on fire, but can it last? This is a completely different animal than we have worked with in the past. How do we program radio to embrace this movement? Are you going to play non stop songs that are Electro/Dubstep sounding? What about the pop remixes? I love the Dada Life mix of Justin Beiber but does Beiber work with an EDM audience? What do you do with the gold records? I have concerns that this will be a fad and in a couple of years we are back to where we were before. Everyone is trying to cash in on this movement. Paris Hilton now DJing and going on tour? Then you have the big name guys pulling a Britney Spears and pre recording sets and walking away with $100,000 for jumping up and down on a stage for maybe 2 hours, while everyone in attendance is dropping $70 or 80. From what I am hearing quite a few promoters are losing money booking these big names.


I personally have had to change things up here at Z889. Freestyle got pulled. Old pop remixes pulled. We increased the current base with more pure dance artists. We rebranded the station and are seriously going after the high school & college listening audience because they are the ones that embracing this movement more than anyone else. Im still shocked more college stations are not getting more involved with the format. Oh wait I forgot some 60 year old adviser is running them. Our 2nd stream is even more aggressive and playing a ton of imports.

Please dont take this as I am down on things but I do have concerns. I love that EDM is all over the place, there are some warning signs.
Click to expand...

Brett, with that last sentence, I TOTALLY hear you! And quite honestly I have similar concerns as well. So with that, I'll answer in reverse :)

Admittedly, the last time dance music/EDM has ever seen a growth this explosive was during the disco era. Not even the 80's/90's freestyle/house/techno movement comes close to what is happening right now. And I'm sure this is a challenge for the few of you that are programmers on terrestrial radio to face because yeah, you do have the college age crowd insane about electro/dubstep. House still holds strong but yeah you can't keep freestyle on your station since to those college kids, that's their parents/grandparents music. But yeah, I am concerned about this just being a "fad" in that sense.

Things are riding high but I also think with what is happening, EDM will wind up "pricing itself out" and not just festivals such as EZ, UMF and EDC. I remember going to a SoBe club to check out a name DJ and the cover was $100! Granted, this was a "name" and I certainly would not have minded plucking down $20-$30 to hear him. But unless I'm getting open bar, $100 is TOO MUCH. As it is with EZ and EDC, I can't go this year. I can't afford it quite actually. If something is going to "kill" this, it will be the overpricing and for what, some guy who has glitzy effects going on in the background standing behind equipment pumping his fist in the air.

Check this article below. This also covers that second paragraph you wrote:
http://notyourjukebox.com/2012/05/19/why-old-school-djs-are-complaining-and-you-should-too/

Now for the AM to FM revolution. That concerns me too. Sure with ESPN you have Disney bucks pouring into that. While 98.7 Kiss-FM in New York had been adult urban for the past 10+ years or so I really thought that the station was going to last forever. So when Emmis did what they did, it was unexpected. And based on what CBS Radio did in Philly with WYSP turning it into WIP-FM, I could easily see 660 WFAN going to 92.3 Now down the road. Just a matter of when.

Granted, I know money is the first and foremost reason why things are what they are. But with the PPM, it certainly doesn't help matters and I could see why some programmers are scared about it.

Believe me Brett, I DO hear you.
 
In big cities where there are big name club scenes, a dance format might well be decent business. It's still for most owners, a niche format.
 
Not to rehash old debates about why dance music doesn't have a major market (Top 10) pure dance station, but think about this for a second, Avicii did a Budwiser commercial as has been pointed out. But does Budwiser support, in anyway, the dance stations that can accept advertising? Not that I know of, and there is your answer. They'll pimp out the flavor of the year to look cool but when it comes to laying down some bucks and supporting those on the front lines, it doesn't happen.

That has been the problem for the last 30 plus years. Also, dance music in the 80's was much bigger than it currently is. A few festivals doesn't prove anything. Especially, when people fly or drive across the country to attend them. There is no way to measure how many of the attendees are part of the cities population, well there is but nobody will pay for that info. So even if you were to fill a stadium with 100,000 people that doesn't show that a city could support an EDM station. That's not to say that a station programmed for mass appeal like the old Dance 40's were wouldn't work but those stations never seem to appease the purists.

For what it's worth.

jp
 
I really don't understand this thread honestly. Here in AZ, the Big Named Events attract the most poser crowds. Its the same promoters bringing the same "cookie cutter tour" to major cities at flashy clubs where you see nothing but people either standing around texting or fist pumping. They know nothing about the music (they have hip hop on their ipods), its simply trendy and these bars (that use to cater to Urban formats) are getting rich with their overpriced drinks and VIP nonsense. I would say it already is corporate, as it's becoming less real.

OK OK, I know this has little to do with "Dance Radio," but I needed to preface my point. When we had Energy AZ here in the valley, these same bars had nothing to do with the station. They would have acts like Kaskade or Oakenfold play in Downtown Scottsdale, but would RARELY promote on the station. And frankly I don't blame them, because the idiots in the crowd didn't listen to us either. They had KISS FM on their presets. Does that make any sense?
 
DJ_Perry said:
I really don't understand this thread honestly. Here in AZ, the Big Named Events attract the most poser crowds.
Click to expand...

That's the main key here why this can be a risk. Most people love to "follow the crowd" like a herd of sheep. Once some other genre becomes popular, those same "dance fans" will flock on over to that genre and claim to be a "die hard fan."
 
d21ofnj said:
DJ_Perry said:
I really don't understand this thread honestly. Here in AZ, the Big Named Events attract the most poser crowds.
Click to expand...

That's the main key here why this can be a risk. Most people love to "follow the crowd" like a herd of sheep. Once some other genre becomes popular, those same "dance fans" will flock on over to that genre and claim to be a "die hard fan."
Click to expand...

That's not just true for dance music. Take for example, the sudden increase of "die-hard Devils fans" in New Jersey now that the Devils are in the Stanley Cup. Or the Jets fans turning into Giants fans for the Super Bowl.

The price for EDM events increases every year, yet they are still packed. I remember Beatstock was always packed every year since 2003, and it was one of only three EDM events in the area (Party 105's Mega Jam and the Promo Only concert were the only other events, but Beatstock was way more popular).
 
The Promo Only Artist Showcase is a private event held in a space one tenth the size of PNC or Jones Beach so it would be hard to compare "popularity". But thanks for the mention. This year's show is August 14th at the House of Blues in Atlantic City.

The EDM crowd that goes to these festival shows fly in from around the world. Which is why the prices are so high. When you have worldwide demand it's much easier to get more money from those that really want to go.
 
JohnParker said:
The Promo Only Artist Showcase is a private event held in a space one tenth the size of PNC or Jones Beach so it would be hard to compare "popularity". But thanks for the mention. This year's show is August 14th at the House of Blues in Atlantic City.

The EDM crowd that goes to these festival shows fly in from around the world. Which is why the prices are so high. When you have worldwide demand it's much easier to get more money from those that really want to go.
Click to expand...

You may not have an outdoor festival with Guetta, Avicii, Laidback Luke, Afrojack, etc. but for what it is worth while you do have major artists in the industry, you also bring out the artists that have that "buzz". We may not know them yet, but we will soon enough and that's what sells Promo Only in that sense.

Lady Gaga, Ke$ha, Dev, Neon Hitch, and I'm sure you can name TONS of others who caught our attention at the showcase. I can't wait to see who the next big artist could be so that we could say that we saw them FIRST! :)
 
Tony Santiago said:
JohnParker said:
The Promo Only Artist Showcase is a private event held in a space one tenth the size of PNC or Jones Beach so it would be hard to compare "popularity". But thanks for the mention. This year's show is August 14th at the House of Blues in Atlantic City.

The EDM crowd that goes to these festival shows fly in from around the world. Which is why the prices are so high. When you have worldwide demand it's much easier to get more money from those that really want to go.
Click to expand...

You may not have an outdoor festival with Guetta, Avicii, Laidback Luke, Afrojack, etc. but for what it is worth while you do have major artists in the industry, you also bring out the artists that have that "buzz". We may not know them yet, but we will soon enough and that's what sells Promo Only in that sense.

Lady Gaga, Ke$ha, Dev, Neon Hitch, and I'm sure you can name TONS of others who caught our attention at the showcase. I can't wait to see who the next big artist could be so that we could say that we saw them FIRST! :)
Click to expand...

I'll deffinitely be there on August 14 8)
 
JohnParker said:
The Promo Only Artist Showcase is a private event held in a space one tenth the size of PNC or Jones Beach so it would be hard to compare "popularity". But thanks for the mention. This year's show is August 14th at the House of Blues in Atlantic City.

The EDM crowd that goes to these festival shows fly in from around the world. Which is why the prices are so high. When you have worldwide demand it's much easier to get more money from those that really want to go.
Click to expand...

Before EDM became popular, Beatstock and Mega Jam were mainly attended by people within the coverage area of the respective station. The Promo Only concert attracted a national audience because it was part of the DJ Expo, and it was limited to DJ Expo attendees and a few lucky Z88.9 listeners. Other than that, no major EDM events in the area till Electric Zoo in 2009. Now there are so many more EDM events in the New York area that attract a worldwide audience. It's pricing out the local audience who used to go to Beatstock and Mega Jam. It seems like KTU had catered to the EDM crowd with KTUphoria this year instead of Beatstock, and Party 105 is trying to make amends to the freestyle audience after last year's Beatstock with the Freestyle Extravaganza.
 
Of course these festivals are going to be priced high. Just look at what it costs to get one of these DJ's to spin at something like this. The numbers are through the roof, but its like that with most popular genres right now. Everyone is milking the good life.

Corporate gets it. Corporate america maybe not the radio industry. It was nice to see Martin Solveig as the house DJ for the MTV music awards. The awards itself sucked, I mean really is Twilight a good movie? The ESPN for the NBA playoffs has been using Calvin Harris and Ne Yo during the broadcasts.

A suggestion and its something that we have been doing a lot of at Z889 is embracing those next tier DJ's. The Porter Robinson, Zedds, Mike Candys and bunch of others. We are working with almost every promoter in Philadelphia to get our listeners to these shows.
 
Simple answer. When dance music can get the key advertising demographics, pure dance formats will happen. Simply a business matter. It don't fly if they can't sell it.
 
Just a couple of clarifications. The Promo Only show has ALWAYS been open to the public as long as one meets the House of Blues restrictions. We've never charged anyone to see the concert. We are not "a part of the DJ Expo" although I do understand the confusion as we've always granted their badge holders priority entrance. We run our own seminarsThe show is only national in that we bring in the radio/music industry from around the country to help us celebrate the music.

And Party 105 isn't making amends, as far as I can tell, to the Freestyle fans. They are doing a lot of shows for various kinds of music this year at Brookhaven and this is just one in that number. Makes sense since Freestyle fans have been showing strong support for this 25 plus year old music.



Nick said:
Before EDM became popular, Beatstock and Mega Jam were mainly attended by people within the coverage area of the respective station. The Promo Only concert attracted a national audience because it was part of the DJ Expo, and it was limited to DJ Expo attendees and a few lucky Z88.9 listeners. Other than that, no major EDM events in the area till Electric Zoo in 2009. Now there are so many more EDM events in the New York area that attract a worldwide audience. It's pricing out the local audience who used to go to Beatstock and Mega Jam. It seems like KTU had catered to the EDM crowd with KTUphoria this year instead of Beatstock, and Party 105 is trying to make amends to the freestyle audience after last year's Beatstock with the Freestyle Extravaganza.
Click to expand...
 
I would like to see every dance station break the corporate rules and promote what the DJs consider "the best sound for the audience".
 
BJ Steigner said:
I would like to see every dance station break the corporate rules and promote what the DJs consider "the best sound for the audience".
Click to expand...

Agreed, but there are only like 4 terrestrial dance stations in the US at the moment (which is like 4x more than there were a few months ago which is good).
 
If you take the sound of a CHR station today back in time 10 years, most of us back then would call it a dance station. One of our posters, KDM 7000, correctly predicted the sound of today's CHR 5 years ago.
 
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