What Is The Appeal?

[chriscollins]

Love the 8100. I prefer the 2-band to the multi-band version. It actually makes the music sound BETTER.

It will never cease to amaze me how different people's opinions and perceptions are. It almost makes any opinion we give irrelevant, as it is so subjective...


Regards,
Goran Tomas

Goran,

You are dead on. There is a lot of passion when it comes to processing. Everyone is so very biased to what they like. It is still fun to read the other opinions. I have an Optimod 8300 and 5500 that were both funded from selling an 8100A/XT2 combo. They are on a Hip-Hop and CHR station. I would never go back. With todays flat lined, over compressed, garbage that comes from the labels, I find that the digital processors clean that up a little better than the old analog boys did.

 

[Kmagrill]

It will never cease to amaze me how different people's opinions and perceptions are. It almost makes any opinion we give irrelevant, as it is so subjective...

Goran,

You are dead on. There is a lot of passion when it comes to processing. Everyone is so very biased to what they like....

The same is true of the listeners. Processing can give a station a unique sound that differentiates it from others in its town. In my city, there are several stations that sound very good to me. Each is different from the others. I have a favorite, but I would also recognize that another listener might well choose a different sound than I might. In the end, if your processing sounds good while keeping your station comparably loud, then I think it has done its job pretty well, especially if you sound good and noticeably different than your competitor. The rest is up to programming. Generally, listeners don't notice or care about processing unless it's badly screwed up. As long as the processing is competent, excellent programming is far, far more important at attracting and keeping listeners.

 

[gtomas]

Generally, listeners don't notice or care about processing unless it's badly screwed up. As long as the processing is competent, excellent programming is far, far more important at attracting and keeping listeners.

Noticing would require that listeners know about processing, that they even know that there is such a thing on radio as a processor. Which they don't... That's a metric you can't measure, so you can't claim that listeners care or don't care (because they don't know there's something they can care about). The best you can get from an audience is whether you have that special appeal, or not. Now whether that's down to the whole package, or just the content... Well, I strongly believe it's the whole package.

A while ago on another forum I was debating with a lady who claimed that the most important thing on radio is music. That people want to listen to music they like and that's why they tune to your station. And that a DJ, a personality, is secondary to that. My position was that the personality is just as important as the music, if not more important. That in fact, a talent can add so much more value to a radio program, compared to having just the music, that she/he might easily be the whole reason one would tune in, instead of playing the same music on an iPod.

From my experience, you have to have it all... Great music, great talent, great imaging and great processing, to have a great radio station. It's not the content that's most important, it's not the music that's most important - it's everything! Like in a rowing team, if you have a weak spot, the boat doesn't flow or turns and wastes time correcting a course and you lose. Everything counts and processing also plays an important role in this picture we're painting for our listeners.


Regards,
Goran Tomas

 

[Studio1]

I see a challenge for someone - design a retro-fit Breakaway system to go into an 8100A box, that still keeps all the meters and LEDs operational. Now that would be one VERY cool piece of equipment.

That would be a "killer app".

Ah...You mean something like this (8200):
http://www.processingfreakday.com/images/2011/17.jpg

Yes, as I was making that post I remembered that very unit. (Someone sent me a link to it some time ago).

The trick would be designing an interface board that allows Breakaway to drive the existing meters on the 8100A.

Perhaps Goran or Leif could comment on the practicality of such a board and the project as a whole.

 

[duckfan98]

I have my 8100A / XT2 up for sale right now (1300$ to first taker).

I am selling it as I have built a Breakaway Box that literally competes with every other station on the air. I picked up a small atx case, solid state hard drive, set the bios to auto power on after fail, and installed a modded 192 card. All for under 500$ (including price of Breakaway!).

I have been kicking around the idea of manufacturing a custom rack mount box with a slick design, incorporating a small LCD screen with breakaway installed and a good sound card (trace). There would be a market for such thing in a heartbeat. Frankly, I am suprised nobody has done such a thing and slapped a 1200$ price tag on it....

 

[Kmagrill]

The best you can get from an audience is whether you have that special appeal, or not. Now whether that's down to the whole package, or just the content... Well, I strongly believe it's the whole package.

I think there are times when some invention so dominates the market that it may have a significant effect on the listener. I think the introduction of the Optimod is probably one of those times, however, I have some doubt about how much of an effect processing really has on the listener, especially in today's environment where processing has basically been mature for many years. I've mentioned this before, but I learned an important point when I was a very young teenager in Miami where my brother was the CE of an FM. The station was loosing the ratings war to cross town rival and the consultant blamed his loss on the audio processing (A Volumax/Audimax combo) that was just a couple of years old at the time (in 1974). It was true that the other station sounded brighter and better. I had even made the same comment to my brother before. The visiting corporate Engineering VP listened to the programmer's rant for about 10 minutes before he turned and said, "The number one station in our radio group is a 1kW AM station in St. Louis. It wins in ratings and billing. It beats all the other stations, AM and FM, because they play what people want to hear! Don't tell me that you cannot compete in this market with a 100 KW FM station." There was no answer.

I've since noticed that listeners don't (for the most part) notice if the stereo pilot is turned off, or if the processing is replaced. They tune in to hear their programs or listen to their favorite talent. As long as those are there, the listener will stay.

I think a station that sounds good is more inspiring to the people that work there and probably makes them work to do a better job. Similarly, it can demoralize the competition. For those reasons alone, it's important to always try to sound your best. So, I agree that processing does play a role, but I also think that programming is much more important and processing is really a supporting player.

 

[duckfan98]

EDIT --

Selling the 8100A / XT2 with and Orban 222A Spatial Enhancer for 1300$. If interested, let me know

 

[BobOnTheJob]

Duckfan...wow. You just told me something about myself that I didn't know. Not long ago at all, I would have already had a certified money order on the way to you for an 8100A/XT-2 for $1300. And I must admit, I weighed the pros and cons and compared the great sounding 8100A/XT-2 that's on the air at one of my contract stations to the instance of BBP I play with here. I suppose that at some point, I've crossed the line. That's a great price. If no one here snags it, I think you'd be pleasantly surprised what it would bring on Ebay.

 

[WNTIRadio]

It's not an "active" thought for most listeners. They won't notice good processing. 99% of the time they won't actively notice bad processing. But if the station sounds bad, has pumping, is muddy and in general causes a headache from listening, they will tune out faster.

Processing DOES affect TSL. It's subliminal to the listeners, but it does affect it. If a station is over compressed, strident and harsh, people won't stick around as long.

Programming is key, but processing, like good production or good imaging, is one of the support players that helps keep people tuned to your station longer and coming back.

 

[satech]

So, if you can find one of the Amigo/CRL limiters, grab it quick! But also check with Orban to see if the PS in the box is the same one used in the AM limiters (looks like it from the on-line manual but can't be sure). If it is, ask if they now have a direct replacement supply available.

I have a CRL Amigo FM that was bought new from Orban in 2007 (one of the last they ever shipped) and has been on the air almost 24/7 since then. No problems with its power supply or anything else. The PS regulators run warm, but I give it room for ventilation and it's fine.

 

[duckfan98]

Orban 8100A / XT 2 with Spatial Enhancer on eBay. Buy it now price of 1750

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150863938160#ht_500wt_1156

 

[satech]

Sold already!!!

I bet once they get it, they'll relist it at twice, or even three times the price. I've seen people asking $5000+ for an 8100+XT2, which is just crazy.

 

[BobOnTheJob]

Sold already!!!

I bet once they get it, they'll relist it at twice, or even three times the price. I've seen people asking $5000+ for an 8100+XT2, which is just crazy.

There's a pair on there now for $6 Grand..which they won't get, but it would be easy to buy at $1750 and easily snag $2500...maybe $3000. There's also a well priced XT2 for $1399 on Ebay now. It's my fave analog processor without question and I've never owned one. But the thing can't hold a candle to $299 dollars worth of Breakaway, a $200 sound card and a $150 used dual core computer.

 

[satech]

But the thing can't hold a candle to $299 dollars worth of Breakaway, a $200 sound card and a $150 used dual core computer.

...which is essentially what you get when you pay $10,000 for an Omnia 9.

 

[jesseg]

It's not an "active" thought for most listeners. They won't notice good processing. 99% of the time they won't actively notice bad processing.

It depends on the listener. Been handling a Drum & Bass station for the past 6 years, and the listeners notice when there are changes in processing. Probably because of how important the "production" is to the music itself, to the point of composition taking a back seat to the sound in a decent amount of D&B (luckily well under 50%).

Sometimes you gotta force em to take note though...... I was trying out some new bass one day, and within 5 minutes someone joins the chat saying that not only was the change awesome, but it cleaned all the snow off the listener house's roof in seconds!

 

[jesseg]

...which is essentially what you get when you pay $10,000 for an Omnia 9.

Actually... even if the 9 was stripped down to just the same audio path & "components" as Breakaway currently has, the 9 sounds noticeably more transparent and has new functions which enhance consistency NOT at the expense of dynamics. But set aside Breakaway completely for a second...

Undo in a box is basically priceless all by itself.

--

On the topic... people just buying stuff on eBay to resell it, I suppose we can't stop that. A trend of doing that with broadcast gear tho? I'm all ears.

 

[chriscollins]

I think O9 with undo is the better processor for Hip-Hop or CHR formats, where mastering has went to hell.

It cleans up the grunge a lot. I wish I could afford one.

I bought undo and use it on my worst tracks, prior to putting them into the Audiovault.

 

[jesseg]

I bought undo

I think you mean that you bought Han's declipper, no? The declipper is only part of Undo.

The dynamics regeneration part is easily 50/50 importance for me, because it fixes one of the MAJOR problems of "bad sounding" audio... inconsistent crest across the spectrum. Undo was about adding Leif brains to a Jesse method I've been using in mastering for 7 years. It ended up being a lot more awesome than we imagined. I actually removed my old method from my default mastering chain only a week ago, and am only using Undo for dynamics regeneration now (with a special "bypassed" preset for a starting point and ease of adjustment).

Anyways, the declipper was an afterthought and still solidifying product spec, until Hans showed us the declipper, and blew our minds all over again.

 

[chriscollins]

I bought undo

I think you mean that you bought Han's declipper, no? The declipper is only part of Undo.

The dynamics regeneration part is easily 50/50 importance for me, because it fixes one of the MAJOR problems of "bad sounding" audio... inconsistent crest across the spectrum. Undo was about adding Leif brains to a Jesse method I've been using in mastering for 7 years. It ended up being a lot more awesome than we imagined. I actually removed my old method from my default mastering chain only a week ago, and am only using Undo for dynamics regeneration now (with a special "bypassed" preset for a starting point and ease of adjustment).

Anyways, the declipper was an afterthought and still solidifying product spec, until Hans showed us the declipper, and blew our minds all over again.

You are correct.