• Get involved.
    We want your input!
    Apply for Membership and join the conversations about everything related to broadcasting.

    After we receive your registration, a moderator will review it. After your registration is approved, you will be permitted to post.
    If you use a disposable or false email address, your registration will be rejected.

    After your membership is approved, please take a minute to tell us a little bit about yourself.
    https://www.radiodiscussions.com/forums/introduce-yourself.1088/

    Thanks in advance and have fun!
    RadioDiscussions Administrators

What happened and why is it still happening?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Part of the issue is that in many emergencies radio, TV, government sources are not always available to do anything when a train full of poison derails at 2AM when everyone in the market and elsewhere are asleep.
To that end, if Congress wants to mandate AM radios in cars for public safety and national security purposes, perhaps something should be done to rectify this problem somewhat?

It seems like a solvable problem if one throws enough money at it, but alas, most stations don't have that luxury anymore.

Streaming isn't a good option. @Daryl Lynn L.A. mentioned wildfires in California, and I can speak from personal experience that, more often than not, when the big ones come, anything digital almost invariably fails miserably, usually because either the cell towers or the infrastructure supporting them is overloaded, damaged or destroyed, but never have more than a few radio or TV stations been knocked out (mostly in the Paradise, CA area during the Camp fire in 2018).

The state and local governments have had many opportunities to solve or at least improve upon these problems, but almost inevitably, when they are put to the test, they fail.

There is a new app out called Watch Duty which seems to work pretty well, but again, it relies on a working cellular connection, so if that goes out, it's of little use.

So until someone can come up with a digital system that is relatively foolproof and solidly reliable, I'm going to remain skeptical and will simply rely on my own senses (if I see or smell smoke, I prepare to leave, and if I see flames heading for me, I run!)

c
 
So until someone can come up with a digital system that is relatively foolproof and solidly reliable, I'm going to remain skeptical and will simply rely on my own senses (if I see or smell smoke, I prepare to leave, and if I see flames heading for me, I run!)
Surprisingly, you made a key statement here: When natural/man made disasters hit, the general public in the area affected do what they're able to protect themselves until help arrives. Communication from first responders generally involve traveling-to and communicating-with citizens on the scene directly, not through some antiquated form of broadcasting.
This whole assumption that the majority of the public will be clutching their portable battery powered radio in the attic waiting for the Calvary to rescue them is fantasy from some 1960's low rated movie. That, and assuming the regional-covering AM station would have Les Nessman waiting to jump behind the mic with specific instructions, or that even the local government is trained and able to activate EAS, is not supported by recent history, nor reality.
 
<...>
So until someone can come up with a digital system that is relatively foolproof and solidly reliable, I'm going to remain skeptical and will simply rely on my own senses<...>
Weasel words...you're writing like an attorney. ;)

"relatively foolproof and solidly reliable"

To what level of reliability would that be? 90%? 95%?
 
Weasel words...you're writing like an attorney. ;)

"relatively foolproof and solidly reliable"

To what level of reliability would that be? 90%? 95%?
And is that reliability considered to be a percentage of actually reaching an audience, or just being on the air broadcasting to nobody?
 
There is a new app out called Watch Duty which seems to work pretty well, but again, it relies on a working cellular connection, so if that goes out, it's of little use
Watch Duty relies on any internet connection. Most people have two: a cable company and a cellular company.

Indeed, most cellular carriers now allow WiFi calling, so even making calls has that level of redundancy.

To what level of reliability would that be? 90%? 95%?
I've carried a mobile phone every day for 20 years. I can think of only one instance where I've picked up my phone in a place where I knew I should have service, and not had service. That's way better than 95%. I don't think people give AT&T, Verizon and T-Mobile the credit they deserve for reliability.
 
I've carried a mobile phone every day for 20 years. I can think of only one instance where I've picked up my phone in a place where I knew I should have service, and not had service. That's way better than 95%. I don't think people give AT&T, Verizon and T-Mobile the credit they deserve for reliability.
I can think of a dozen or more times when cellular was unavailable or randomly/seldom available in a medium American metro.

Each year, the Coachella Valley hosts the Coachella and Stagecoach festivals. About 100,000 people between attendees and staff, come to the area on three weekends.

I live about 1.5 miles from the event. While it is going on, cellular... even on Internet connections... is dead or intermittent. When we drive to stores several miles from the event, we don't start getting connectivity for 3 to 5 miles.

The cellular companies put in additional porta-cells to handle excess demand. That does not help. We've seen this since around 2006 to 2007. They add portable facilities, and it still does not help. It is as if the portable cells take over the neighborhood cells and void them of capacity.

I just imagine what will happen in a significant quake when everyone with a cellular phone starts calling simultaneously and incessantly.

I won't even bother to tell you about my family's loss of cell connectivity for weeks (with an "s") after a hurricane a few years back.
 
I just imagine what will happen in a significant quake when everyone with a cellular phone starts calling simultaneously and incessantly.

I won't even bother to tell you about my family's loss of cell connectivity for weeks (with an "s") after a hurricane a few years back.
I've head similar claims about T-Mobile users, but most are willing to have interruption because of the lower cost. Going with Verizon or AT&T would be more reliable.
 
The last two posts are purely anecdotal evidence and prove nothing.
My first case affected at least 20,000 people living within a few miles of the music festivals and recurred over a period of more than a decade.

The other case, the hurricane, affected several million people at a minimum one day and maximum several months. https://www.elnuevodia.com/ has hundreds of pages of reports on this.

Both are examples of how cellular service is fragile. If there are too many users, the system fails. If there is no power for the cells or transportation to fuel cells with generators the whole complex fails.
 
I've head similar claims about T-Mobile users, but most are willing to have interruption because of the lower cost. Going with Verizon or AT&T would be more reliable.
I am on AT&T, and have neighbors on both Verizon and AT&T. All had the same problems this year and in years past.
 
To that end, if Congress wants to mandate AM radios in cars for public safety and national security purposes, perhaps something should be done to rectify this problem somewhat? It seems like a solvable problem if one throws enough money at it, but alas, most stations don't have that luxury anymore.

It's not a station problem. It's legally the responsibility of the Department of Homeland Security. The problem is emergencies and disasters happen all the time, and knowing what's happening becomes a case of whack-a-mole. The only solution is to become the world Orwell predicted in his book 1984, with cameras everywhere. Not a practical solution.

AM radio is a transmission medium. It has the potential to connect listeners to the DHS, if everything is working properly. That's about it.
 
HELLO - HELLO ( retrack GOOD-BYE , GOOD BYE ) in my last comment for those that felt I don't like criticism! I love it, when it is correct and fair.

You guys have your thoughts and I respect that but again I am simply saying . . . RADIO BLEW IT . . . yes AM is going away around the world . . . again RADIO SHOULD HAVE IMPROVED ITSELF by fighting harder in the early 2000's - it did not.
If it disappears soon at least it would have gone out being digital for the last 20 years or so. And I say if it did go digital 20 years ago it might last another 20 years or more, OTA radio that is.
I know there are some of you that are going to say digital is not as good as analog . . . well your cell phone you love so much is DIGITAL ???

*********************************************************************
also DavidE said this up aways in this thread . . .

from DavidE,

I can think of a dozen or more times when cellular was unavailable or randomly/seldom available in a medium American metro.

Each year, the Coachella Valley hosts the Coachella and Stagecoach festivals. About 100,000 people between attendees and staff, come to the area on three weekends.

I live about 1.5 miles from the event. While it is going on, cellular... even on Internet connections... is dead or intermittent. When we drive to stores several miles from the event, we don't start getting connectivity for 3 to 5 miles.

The cellular companies put in additional porta-cells to handle excess demand. That does not help. We've seen this since around 2006 to 2007. They add portable facilities, and it still does not help. It is as if the portable cells take over the neighborhood cells and void them of capacity.

I just imagine what will happen in a significant quake when everyone with a cellular phone starts calling simultaneously and incessantly.

I won't even bother to tell you about my family's loss of cell connectivity for weeks (with an "s") after a hurricane a few years back.

*********************************************************************

even DavidE admits that cell (phone) circuits are not perfect . . . that is why I am sticking up for OVER THE AIR radio . . . old fashion FM and a new band using FM modulation (or digital) for ALL the present AM stations . . . China will make radios for it and the auto industry.

I am surprised that DavidE said this because I been saying it constantly, phone circuits work good until they are overloaded . . . oh but "alok" the telecom companies improved things since the "old days" like in Daves example the mid 2000's . . . yea "wanna buy a bridge"
I believe that during the next big emergency to see how true that is.

again - YES cell phones deliver emergency messages, that is great, but RADIO & TV should also be in the picture, the more the better. Were suppose to be here to help people.

Somebody said earlier in this thread "people in their attic" with a battery operated radio waiting for emergency info . . . remember Hurricane Katrina around 2005, maybe if you are ever put in that position (up in your attic) surrounded by flood waters you'd have a RADIO & CELL PHONE with you.
If one fails (most likely that cell phone) you'd have the other, that battery operated RADIO with that signal 25 - 50 miles away helping you "in the attic" to know what is going on.

Again CELL & RADIO have to have the people to supply the emergency info, that is another issue.

Al
 
HELLO - HELLO ( retrack GOOD-BYE , GOOD BYE ) in my last comment for those that felt I don't like criticism! I love it, when it is correct and fair.

You guys have your thoughts and I respect that but again I am simply saying . . . RADIO BLEW IT . . . yes AM is going away around the world . . . again RADIO SHOULD HAVE IMPROVED ITSELF by fighting harder in the early 2000's - it did not.

You keep saying things as though that will change the fact that you're wrong. Radio has improved itself by bypassing regulated spectrum space that it doesn't own and moving to the unregulated internet, where it can operate in digitally without limitations and without forcing users to buy new radios. Millions of people understand that except you.
 
HELLO - HELLO ( retrack GOOD-BYE , GOOD BYE ) in my last comment for those that felt I don't like criticism! I love it, when it is correct and fair.
Damn! I thought you were serious with your hear felt 'bye-bye'.
Looks like there's more nonsense to come..
I know there are some of you that are going to say digital is not as good as analog . . . well your cell phone you love so much is DIGITAL ???
And where did that spectrum come from? TV broadcasters, when the government thought they could cash in by selling the spectrum. Broadcasters never have had that option.
even DavidE admits that cell (phone) circuits are not perfect . . . that is why I am sticking up for OVER THE AIR radio . . . old fashion FM and a new band using FM modulation (or digital) for ALL the present AM stations . . . China will make radios for it and the auto industry.
You keep repeating this same blather, but when someone like me comes back and asks where this spectrum for a new FM band would come from, you just keep repeating the same ol' thing. Either you don't understand how radio works, and that it requires spectrum to broadcast, or you don't bother reading the replies and answering accordingly. Hard to have a discussion when it's only one way.
Somebody said earlier in this thread "people in their attic" with a battery operated radio waiting for emergency info . . . remember Hurricane Katrina around 2005, maybe if you are ever put in that position (up in your attic) surrounded by flood waters you'd have a RADIO & CELL PHONE with you.
That's all you picked out of an earlier reply?? What if 99% of the public don't have a portable radio with charged batteries? Yeah I know; not sure why I'm asking, because you won't reply to that question either.
 
Where did you get the statistic that 99% of the public don't have a portable radio? Link?

My community is having a forest fire safety information meeting with the local, county, and state fire officials next week, because it is the start of forest fire season. Everyone will be encouraged to have a portable radio with extra batteries. They talk about that every year, and those meetings are well attended.
 
Where did you get the statistic that 99% of the public don't have a portable radio? Link?

My community is having a forest fire safety information meeting with the local, county, and state fire officials next week, because it is the start of forest fire season. Everyone will be encouraged to have a portable radio with extra batteries. They talk about that every year, and those meetings are well attended.
I'm not answering you Daryl, because I don't care what you think. Not everyone lives in the forest. Maybe only 1%.
 
I'm not answering you Daryl, because I don't care what you think. Not everyone lives in the forest. Maybe only 1%.
Is there a full moon tonight?

Let's stay civil, please.

Or, as the totally technically ignorant owner of several stations I competed against decades used to say when confronted with absolutely any technical issue, "increase the bias".
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom