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Talk_Dude said:
Let's face it, Classical is just not appealing enough for the commercial stations to take over. There are only a sliver of classical station stations in the US left that are commercially owned (KDFC in San Francisco comes to mind). Otherwise most of the classical station are run by non-profits like KING in Seattle or publicly owned through a college or university station. It's because the ratings aren't good enough for commercial stations to go for it. KFUO was getting a 2.2 share right before they went off the air. But was still financially stable.
I don't see Clear Channel or CBS Radio coming in and flipping one of their stations to classical. Also KWMU seems deadset in keeping news on their radio station (with the classical HD subchannel). It's still upsetting that KUFO went away not because it wasn't financially stable (it was doing better than it's sister on AM), it was because the Church decided to get greedy and make a few bucks selling a station that was a part of St. Louis for 62 years.
I don't blame Joy FM for taking advantage of it. But saying things like "God gave us this radio signal" or "it was God's will" is kind of insulting to people still getting over the loss of Classic 99. I just wish they were more sensitive to the situation.
It's still upsetting that KUFO went away not because it wasn't financially stable (it was doing better than it's sister on AM), it was because the Church decided to get greedy and make a few bucks selling a station that was a part of St. Louis for 62 years.
I don't blame Joy FM for taking advantage of it. But saying things like "God gave us this radio signal" or "it was God's will" is kind of insulting to people still getting over the loss of Classic 99. I just wish they were more sensitive to the situation.
I'm not a member of the LCMS, have been attending an ELCA congregation and am seriously considering becoming a member of that congregation. I am faithful listener to The Lutheran Hour, online, which is an LCMS ministry that is supported by listeners. My understanding, from reading this thread was that the LCMS needed the money to do other ministry work as in reaching the lost for Christ. That must always be any church's primary objective (The Great Commission as spelled out by Jesus). The LCMS did what they believed they needed to do in order to continue on doing that far more vital work, which is a far more important than tickling St. Louis' ears with Beethoven or Bach ( I love Classical Music and even Gregorian Chant so if I lived there I'd not be happy about the loss, but would understand). It was a luxury the LCMS apparently no longer could afford to do. I'm sure it was a painful decision for the leadership and local congregations of the LCMS. At least they sold KFUO-FM to a Christian organization, yes they differ on doctrine, but both do worship the same Risen Christ and are "brothers and sisters in Christ" working to bring the lost to Christ. Would some of you have thought it better they sell it to a "worldly company" who'd play music that doesn't glorify Christ at all?
Now for Joy-FM. Maybe they've been praying for years to get a station in St. Louis or near that area and from their perspective, yes it is answered prayer, and hopefully God's will. God does have seasons for various things, and possibly it was time for the LCMS to stop broadcasting Classical Music on radio. There may be other things, none of us here can know that also may be part of what the Lord is doing in both LCMS and the owners of Joy-FM (whatever Christian group is involved in their radio work). God may have closed a door for the LCMS in that one area, but may have opened another door via that money to reap a larger harvest for HIS kingdom, which in the currency the Lord values is way more important than simply playing nice music on the radio. In any case, Joy-FM now has the responsibility of bringing Christ's word via CCM to that area and KFUO-AM continues to have the responsibility to bring Christ's via talk/programming/preaching, etc to that area. Both churches need to be faithful to what they believe the Lord is calling them respectively to do.
I don't blame Joy FM for taking advantage of it. But saying things like "God gave us this radio signal" or "it was God's will" is kind of insulting to people still getting over the loss of Classic 99. I just wish they were more sensitive to the situation.
I'm not a member of the LCMS, have been attending an ELCA congregation and am seriously considering becoming a member of that congregation. I am faithful listener to The Lutheran Hour, online, which is an LCMS ministry that is supported by listeners. My understanding, from reading this thread was that the LCMS needed the money to do other ministry work as in reaching the lost for Christ. That must always be any church's primary objective (The Great Commission as spelled out by Jesus). The LCMS did what they believed they needed to do in order to continue on doing that far more vital work, which is a far more important than tickling St. Louis' ears with Beethoven or Bach ( I love Classical Music and even Gregorian Chant so if I lived there I'd not be happy about the loss, but would understand). It was a luxury the LCMS apparently no longer could afford to do. I'm sure it was a painful decision for the leadership and local congregations of the LCMS. At least they sold KFUO-FM to a Christian organization, yes they differ on doctrine, but both do worship the same Risen Christ and are "brothers and sisters in Christ" working to bring the lost to Christ. Would some of you have thought it better they sell it to a "worldly company" who'd play music that doesn't glorify Christ at all?
Now for Joy-FM. Maybe they've been praying for years to get a station in St. Louis or near that area and from their perspective, yes it is answered prayer, and hopefully God's will. God does have seasons for various things, and possibly it was time for the LCMS to stop broadcasting Classical Music on radio. There may be other things, none of us here can know that also may be part of what the Lord is doing in both LCMS and the owners of Joy-FM (whatever Christian group is involved in their radio work). God may have closed a door for the LCMS in that one area, but may have opened another door via that money to reap a larger harvest for HIS kingdom, which in the currency the Lord values is way more important than simply playing nice music on the radio. In any case, Joy-FM now has the responsibility of bringing Christ's word via CCM to that area and KFUO-AM continues to have the responsibility to bring Christ's via talk/programming/preaching, etc to that area. Both churches need to be faithful to what they believe the Lord is calling them respectively to do.
MikefromDelaware said:
It's difficult to discuss religious programming without discussing the nuances of church teachings. I'll attempt to avoid stepping on toes if I can, and will state emphatically that I mean no offense or disrespect to any denomination or faith tradition. I am a cradle Lutheran. I am not LC-MS, and will be leaving the ELCA for the LCMC as soon as I can find a congregation nearby to join. (To non-Lutherans, acronyms like these are standard stuff for us. I realize it's confusing.)
The LC-MS made a decision a long time ago to place doctrinal orthodoxy ahead of evangelical outreach. That is a controversial decision. Both the pro and anti sides have compelling arguments. The LC-MS holds the view that there is little benefit to drawing in new members if it is accomplished by changing core, fundamental beliefs. I can see merit in that view. They need funds for maintaining their seminaries, which is where new pastors are trained in their core, fundamental beliefs. They also hold the belief that the best and most effective way to reach people is through individual congregations, not radio broadcasts. That's not to say that they don't think radio broadcasts have merit, but given limited resources, they decided that funding for their seminaries was more important than owning an FM radio station.
One may disagree with the logic and reasoning behind their decision, but I don't think anyone can say that they didn't have what they believed was a very good reason for doing what they did.
As for bringing Christ's word via CCM, one's opinion on that subject surely must be influenced by one's own personal understanding of the Gospel. If one's understanding of the Gospel is salvation by Grace alone, then songs about what is called "Decision Theology" or "Theology of Glory" can be problematical.
Talk_Dude said:
Are people really insipired by CCM and actually have an impact on their lives. I mean if anything Classical music is more spiritual since it was all done in a religious sense as a way to worship the Lord back in the day. Maybe I just don't get it but it just sounds like a soft rock station that uses the words Jesus instead of baby (yes I stole that from South Park).
I mean I feel more inspired listening to Classic 99 instead of Joy FM, but I guess I'm just a music snob.
If God really wanted Joy FM to have that signal, why did he let the LCMS and Joy FM do the deal behind closed doors with no input from the congregation? Don't you think that they should have a say in how this should've been handled?
To each his own but to answer your question I find nothing spiritual or worshipful in classical music for "me". Classical music has no impact on my life except to bore me. I do not like it. While contemporary christian music I do find spiritual, very worshipful and impacts my life. The times I feel closest to God is when listening to contemporary christian music. And I know I am not alone in that feeling. It is not fair for people who do not like contemporary christian music though to judge it and say it is not spiritual. I do not believe God cares what type of music it is. He is concerned with our heart.
I had to go to a Easter concert of classical music and opera at a Methodist church a couple years ago. I got nothing out of it. Worse than that I hated it. I understand the people who would get something out of it would be people who like classical music. I do not put those people down but its not for me. A contemporary christian concert on the other hand or music from Joy-FM does draw me closer to God. I have loved listening to Joy-FM the last week and feel closer to God from it.
I had to go to a Easter concert of classical music and opera at a Methodist church a couple years ago. I got nothing out of it. Worse than that I hated it. I understand the people who would get something out of it would be people who like classical music. I do not put those people down but its not for me. A contemporary christian concert on the other hand or music from Joy-FM does draw me closer to God. I have loved listening to Joy-FM the last week and feel closer to God from it.
Tried Classical/Opera music for about a year or two. (Early 2007 to around late 2008) At first I liked the music and started buying many of those CD's. I though this music was for me and I found myself wanting to get high off of it. Even thought this music was helping me in my walk with God. After a spell, I got tired of and bored with the Classical and Opera stuff and ditched that collection.
R.D.P. <><
P.S. I just get more from CCM, than I would a Classical tune anyway.
R.D.P. <><
P.S. I just get more from CCM, than I would a Classical tune anyway.
Mrtraveler01 said:
Beats me. My guess would be that if you asked 100 people what their own personal reactions were, you'd get 100 different yet equally accurate answers.
You aren't the first self-confessed music snob I've encountered, and you won't be the last. Some people are more inspired by the tunes, others by the lyrics.
I now like both Praise and Worship Music and Classical Music including Gregorian Chanting. I only in the past 18 months, while investigating Lutheranism, that I found value for Classical Music in my worship time with the Lord ( I've always loved Classical Music, but never got in to it in church other than Easter and Christmas). Previously, I had ONLY wanted Praise and Worship Music. For me, it depends on what type of service I'm attending. The hymn/chants fit perfectly with a Lutheran Mass, whereas Praise Music would seem almost being disrespectful, yet when I worship at a Charismatic church the hymns don't fit in as well (praise versions of hymns OK, but the organ version doesn't work), but Praise and Worship music sure does and fits perfectly for my spirit ( actually my wife and I go to two churches each Sunday - an ELCA Lutheran and an Assembly of God church). I find wonderful worship at both churches. I am a musician, I play piano, Clarinet, and Sax. I've led a big band, wedding/dance band, orchestras, choirs, folk groups, praise bands, and have written 3 praise songs, plus some other instrumental music. So music, for me, is important. Presently, I sing in the Lutheran choir (I'm not a great singer, but blend in well enough that the choir director is kind enough to allow me to sing with them) and on occasion play piano solos at the AG church. I assist the AG associate pastor in doing a communion service for a nursing home. I do both hymns and mellow praise music. Those 80-90 year olds like both forms of music and sing all the songs, making someone's point, that God gave us all the gift of music. The style of the music isn't important to the Lord, but the heart that is performing it and the hearts of those singing it in worship is what the Lord is looking at.
So even though the Lutheran's and the Joy-FM folks don't see eye to eye in all aspects of their belief in Jesus, they do worship the same Christ. So whether a person is saved due to listening to the Lutheran Hour, KFUO-AM, or Joy-FM isn't as important as the fact that those folks did come to know Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. They'll get to meet each other someday in heaven, where our denominations won't matter. As Paul said in 1 Corinthians, we now all see through smoke colored glass and won't see clearly until the perfect comes.
So even though the Lutheran's and the Joy-FM folks don't see eye to eye in all aspects of their belief in Jesus, they do worship the same Christ. So whether a person is saved due to listening to the Lutheran Hour, KFUO-AM, or Joy-FM isn't as important as the fact that those folks did come to know Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. They'll get to meet each other someday in heaven, where our denominations won't matter. As Paul said in 1 Corinthians, we now all see through smoke colored glass and won't see clearly until the perfect comes.
MikefromDelaware said:
Sadly, you'll never hear the kind of music on the radio that is common in many Lutheran churches, especially ELCA. If you've ever heard Setting 5 from the ELCA's "With One Voice" accompanied by a rock band, you'll hear the fusion of traditional worship practices with modern sounding music. Even better is the Mass "Now The Feast and Celebration", written by Marty Haugen. Those two are as good with a contemporary band accompanying them as LBW Setting 2 is with a pipe organ.
Personally, I wish there were stations that would play more modern Christian music other than just hit Commercial Christian Music songs. I'm on the list of people who listen to snippets of CCM songs on The Fish in Atlanta. The worst things about those songs is that they are mostly just bad songs. Sure, they have "safe" Christian lyrics. But musically they're as bad as most of the junk on CHR stations nowadays. I can understand how commercial stations have to pander to the lowest common denominator, even if it is the Christian market. But I can't understand why the listener-supported stations won't give other good Christian music a chance.
J
JimTroost
Guest
Talk_Dude said:
I think what I like most about The Journey that I've been supporting here is that usually it has a really diverse mix of music and some of the best songs are too "rocky" or "loud" for the typical AC Christian station like JoyFM here in Saint Louis. The daytime format is CHR, sure, but whoever programs it there goes outside the box and plays harder stuff with deeper lyrics, including some that are rather controversial.
By the way, as I mentioned in the other thread, I wrote to The Journey using their online form and told them about the discussions here. I got an email back from somebody with the title "Outreach Coordinator" (I'm taking that to mean "Public Relations") that said Pastor Rob would answer some of my questions during his morning show tomorrow and mention this discussion board on the air sometime between 8 am and noon tomorrow during the "No Repeat Monday".
The Journey's at http://www.thejourneyradio.org/ if anyone's curious. I wonder if someone from the station will join us here.
Sadly, you'll never hear the kind of music on the radio that is common in many Lutheran churches, especially ELCA. If you've ever heard Setting 5 from the ELCA's "With One Voice" accompanied by a rock band, you'll hear the fusion of traditional worship practices with modern sounding music. Even better is the Mass "Now The Feast and Celebration", written by Marty Haugen. Those two are as good with a contemporary band accompanying them as LBW Setting 2 is with a pipe organ.
Personally, I wish there were stations that would play more modern Christian music other than just hit Commercial Christian Music songs. I'm on the list of people who listen to snippets of CCM songs on The Fish in Atlanta. The worst things about those songs is that they are mostly just bad songs. Sure, they have "safe" Christian lyrics. But musically they're as bad as most of the junk on CHR stations nowadays. I can understand how commercial stations have to pander to the lowest common denominator, even if it is the Christian market. But I can't understand why the listener-supported stations won't give other good Christian music a chance.
What you describe sounds interesting and maybe someday I'll get to hear that at the ELCA Lutheran church I've been attending.
I think what might be causing CCM stations to play the hits is that that music will appeal to the largest segment of their audience (women). For my ear CCM, generally sounds a lot like AC in the secular radio world. That is a format that definitely targets women (think Delilah's radio show). As there usually is only one CCM station in a market, where with secular rock stations you may have an Oldies, Classic Rock, Metal, AC, Soft Rock, etc, etc. so those stations can play the segment of the rock scene their targeted audience desires. Unfortunately, even with Christian radio, it still is a business (meaning it costs money to own/operate -electric bills/pay salaries, etc, to run a radio station). Depending on your market, a commercial Christian station of any format might have a tough time selling enough spots (think large blue/liberal cities-counties) and non-comms too also have to keep the majority of their audience happy. Most folks just will not listen to music they do not like and once they push that button to change stations, you might not get them back for hours or even days. I agree with you and as I'm not into CCM music, would prefer Praise and Worship, I don't listen to my local CCM station at all. I listen to CD's when I want Christian music, or the preaching/programming Christian stations. Even with some praise songs as with many CCM songs, there seems to be a targeted style and sound that appeals more to women with some songs coming across like a "Jesus is my boyfriend" song, which is wrong, he's our Savior and Lord. No one would mistake Martin Luther's "A Mighty Fortress is our God" as being a "Jesus is my boyfriend" song.
Personally, I wish there were stations that would play more modern Christian music other than just hit Commercial Christian Music songs. I'm on the list of people who listen to snippets of CCM songs on The Fish in Atlanta. The worst things about those songs is that they are mostly just bad songs. Sure, they have "safe" Christian lyrics. But musically they're as bad as most of the junk on CHR stations nowadays. I can understand how commercial stations have to pander to the lowest common denominator, even if it is the Christian market. But I can't understand why the listener-supported stations won't give other good Christian music a chance.
What you describe sounds interesting and maybe someday I'll get to hear that at the ELCA Lutheran church I've been attending.
I think what might be causing CCM stations to play the hits is that that music will appeal to the largest segment of their audience (women). For my ear CCM, generally sounds a lot like AC in the secular radio world. That is a format that definitely targets women (think Delilah's radio show). As there usually is only one CCM station in a market, where with secular rock stations you may have an Oldies, Classic Rock, Metal, AC, Soft Rock, etc, etc. so those stations can play the segment of the rock scene their targeted audience desires. Unfortunately, even with Christian radio, it still is a business (meaning it costs money to own/operate -electric bills/pay salaries, etc, to run a radio station). Depending on your market, a commercial Christian station of any format might have a tough time selling enough spots (think large blue/liberal cities-counties) and non-comms too also have to keep the majority of their audience happy. Most folks just will not listen to music they do not like and once they push that button to change stations, you might not get them back for hours or even days. I agree with you and as I'm not into CCM music, would prefer Praise and Worship, I don't listen to my local CCM station at all. I listen to CD's when I want Christian music, or the preaching/programming Christian stations. Even with some praise songs as with many CCM songs, there seems to be a targeted style and sound that appeals more to women with some songs coming across like a "Jesus is my boyfriend" song, which is wrong, he's our Savior and Lord. No one would mistake Martin Luther's "A Mighty Fortress is our God" as being a "Jesus is my boyfriend" song.
J
JimTroost
Guest
I read somewhere that the "mainly women" demographic for Christian radio is changing, but it appears that radio programmers haven't gotten the message. At least nine out of ten songs I heard on a non-religious radio station here while riding in a nephew's car are on the Journey's playlist and are supposed to be Christian groups but they don't sing constantly about Jesus and so on.
Most stations that follow that AC format are whimpy, whimpy, whimpy. Even some stuff on my fav online station that I mention here is to whimpy, whimpy, whimpy for me but at least the mix is better & it does seem to have the commercials. They play enough of them I'd sware it's traditional broadcast radio.
Most stations that follow that AC format are whimpy, whimpy, whimpy. Even some stuff on my fav online station that I mention here is to whimpy, whimpy, whimpy for me but at least the mix is better & it does seem to have the commercials. They play enough of them I'd sware it's traditional broadcast radio.
]MikefromDelaware said:
Thank you for emphasizing my point. I will say the only exposure I have to CCM has been through stations like Joy FM which play music very similar to what you described above. I mean it doesn't inspire me at all and just sounds like an even worse version of soft rock.
Mrtraveler01 said:
Basic rule of life: Never judge any style of music based on the "tip of the iceberg" samples that are played on the radio. There hasn't seemed to be anyone who programmed the music on any commercial station in any format who actually cares about music since the days of free-form "underground" FM radio in the late 1960's. I could be wrong, but you'd never prove it by pointing to any of the computer-selected playlists that radio has been using for the past 40 or more years.
We all know why, consultants take survey's of the specific targeted audience trying to be reached for the advertisers of that consultant. So say upper middle class white females aged 25-35 like all those bland vanilla sounding AC songs that Delilah plays on Wilmington's WJBR and Philly's B-101 (WBEB), well then thats what that station's PD has the computer set up to program. The fact is, it works. Those women who like that format flock to those stations. In Wilmington and Philly respectively, those two stations are either #1 or #2 in their respective markets.
CCM radio does the same thing. If you think about it, in terms of non-comm Christian radio, the majority of Christian radio listeners come from the more conservative type churches, usually non-denominational, Charismatic non-denominational, Pentecostal, Assembly of God, Southern Baptist, and other Evangelical type churches. The more liberal and the liturgical churches (ELCA and LCMS Lutherans, Methodists, Presbyterians, and Episcopals don't seem to be as big of listeners to Christian radio generally, as liturgical churches are not into the Evangelical types of preaching and they tend to use more hymn based music in their services (see our discussion earlier in this thread about Lutheran music) so they aren't as familar with praise music or CCM music. So with this being the case, the primary audience for CCM or any other Christian station generally is that more conservative Christian audience that probably, for the most part does not like or want Rock of any kind and in some cases barely tolerate the AC CCM format. So good luck in finding a CCM station that will feature as their mainstay, a Rockier sounding format of CCM. Those Evangelical housewives, who stay home with their kids and do the "soccor mom" thing and those working Evangelical moms all probably prefer the vanilla sounding AC CCM as a good safe alternative to secular AC. Those ladies will be the one's writing donation checks or getting their husband to write the check, as the case may be, but bottomline is, they are more than likely the demo your local CCM is targeting.
CCM radio does the same thing. If you think about it, in terms of non-comm Christian radio, the majority of Christian radio listeners come from the more conservative type churches, usually non-denominational, Charismatic non-denominational, Pentecostal, Assembly of God, Southern Baptist, and other Evangelical type churches. The more liberal and the liturgical churches (ELCA and LCMS Lutherans, Methodists, Presbyterians, and Episcopals don't seem to be as big of listeners to Christian radio generally, as liturgical churches are not into the Evangelical types of preaching and they tend to use more hymn based music in their services (see our discussion earlier in this thread about Lutheran music) so they aren't as familar with praise music or CCM music. So with this being the case, the primary audience for CCM or any other Christian station generally is that more conservative Christian audience that probably, for the most part does not like or want Rock of any kind and in some cases barely tolerate the AC CCM format. So good luck in finding a CCM station that will feature as their mainstay, a Rockier sounding format of CCM. Those Evangelical housewives, who stay home with their kids and do the "soccor mom" thing and those working Evangelical moms all probably prefer the vanilla sounding AC CCM as a good safe alternative to secular AC. Those ladies will be the one's writing donation checks or getting their husband to write the check, as the case may be, but bottomline is, they are more than likely the demo your local CCM is targeting.
MikefromDelaware said:
I totally agree with what you said. However, I think that a well programmed station with harder, heavier Christian edged music could attract a different audience than the housewife CCM stations you refer to. I'd bet that if there were two Christian stations in the same market, one playing Delilahish sounding Christian pop songs and the other playing Christian Rock, both could be successful with two different sub-sets of the Christian audience. And a third Christian station playing old-time Gospel, and a fourth Christian station playing Christian classical music (as long as it was way down on the left edge of the dial) could also co-exist. But that's just a theory, and will probably never be put to the test.
I agree. If there were more than one CCM in a market, what you propose would probably work.
Speaking of church music and Lutheran music specifically, on You Tube there is a great program the BBC did that features the music of Bach with period instruments and the history of Bach and Luther interspersed. Go to You Tube and put in the search space bbc-bach and lutheran legacy. If you like Classical Music, and Lutheran Classical Music specifically , this is worth the view.
Speaking of church music and Lutheran music specifically, on You Tube there is a great program the BBC did that features the music of Bach with period instruments and the history of Bach and Luther interspersed. Go to You Tube and put in the search space bbc-bach and lutheran legacy. If you like Classical Music, and Lutheran Classical Music specifically , this is worth the view.
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