• Get involved.
    We want your input!
    Apply for Membership and join the conversations about everything related to broadcasting.

    After we receive your registration, a moderator will review it. After your registration is approved, you will be permitted to post.
    If you use a disposable or false email address, your registration will be rejected.

    After your membership is approved, please take a minute to tell us a little bit about yourself.
    https://www.radiodiscussions.com/forums/introduce-yourself.1088/

    Thanks in advance and have fun!
    RadioDiscussions Administrators

Some Historical Radio and TV Audio info


I don't know of any cases where the (US standard) Dorren Discrete Quad FM system was used for regular FM broadcasts.



Interesting about AT&T responding to the PBS DATE national audio distribution system (and the BBC using PCM for audio distribuition in 1972).


Kirk Bayne
 
I don't know of any cases where the (US standard) Dorren Discrete Quad FM system was used for regular FM broadcasts.
The whole Quad FM trip in Mr. Peabody's Wayback Machine has come up several times on this board. Bottom line: Quad FM reception worked okay, but there was very limited quad music recorded. At the time, there were even fewer recording studios, let alone interest by artists, for recording in quad. No content, no consumer interest
 
The whole Quad FM trip in Mr. Peabody's Wayback Machine has come up several times on this board. Bottom line: Quad FM reception worked okay, but there was very limited quad music recorded. At the time, there were even fewer recording studios, let alone interest by artists, for recording in quad. No content, no consumer interest
The most convincing (and simplistic) argument against quad was "we have two ears, not four".

Most listening environments were not particularly appropriate for concert-hall or recording studio acoustic emulation.This is why most TV installations today have a sound bar... maybe with a subwoofer box... but none of the six to 12 speaker systems that were well promoted a decade or two ago.
 

The general consensus is that the lack of a single standard for Quadraphonic sound on the vinyl disc was the major stumbling block that impeded the adoption of Surround Sound as the norm for audio (Quad on tape [more tracks] and FM [more frequency division multiplexing] was easy by comparison).

Also:


I listen to popular music and have a number of albums mixed in Quad/Surround Sound (and some of the numerous decoders required to listen to them), when all is said and done, I find Surround Sound listening more entertaining than Stereo or Mono (I listen to nearly everything thru a Dolby Pro-Logic decoder and 4 speakers arranged in the recommended Quad configuration).


Kirk Bayne
 
IIRC Mr Dorren was working on a new type of CD4 demuxer that worked with a conventional stereo cartridge but never finished it before he died in 2014. Hopefully one of his partners or somebody on QQ knowledgable about such things will someday be able to finish it and do him proud if they haven't already done. It'd be a shame to see it not come to fruition. (Strictly MHO.)

From my own experience, a modern receiver with a 6-channel analogue input (e.g. many 2000s Denon receivers like the AVR3300) is an excellent choice for running discrete quad tape formats. You just hook up the left/right stage and house channels and ignore the centre and LFE/sub channels.
 
Louis Dorren was a QQ member and I was able to ask him a large number of questions about CD-4.


More recently, surfing the web, I ran across an offer by Pspatial Audio to develop an all software CD-4 decoder, I posted the link in QQ and Pspatial Audio did develop 2 CD-4 decoders (which one to use depends on the condition of the CD-4 disc).


Kirk Bayne
 
The general consensus is that the lack of a single standard for Quadraphonic sound on the vinyl disc was the major stumbling block that impeded the adoption of Surround Sound as the norm for audio (Quad on tape [more tracks] and FM [more frequency division multiplexing] was easy by comparison).
The "market confusion" of several different and incompatible Quad systems was certainly a huge factor in it's commercial failure, but there were at least two other significant negative factors.

1. The original Quadraphonic speaker plan placed the listener in the dead-center of basically a square array with a speaker in each corner facing the listener. The "sweet spot" was one seat, and the average living room didn't support the speaker plan well at all, especially with that one seat in the middle of the room. Moving off dead-center pretty much confounded any hope of realistic spatial reproduction, especially with the two most marketed Quad systems: QS and SQ. Discrete quad from 8-track or R-R tape worked better, but was far less available. CD-4 came in late, never fully penetrated the market because it added yet another hardware requirement (special cartridge, stylus, and decoder) to the already behemoth Quad system, suffered from rapid degradation with repeated playings, and demanded that record companies produce recordings in "double inventory", standard stereo and CD-4, as a CD-4 disc would be ruined by a standard stereo stylus.

2. The burden on the listener to buy 4 identical speakers and a huge 4-channel receiver, or array of separates for a hard to perceive return on investment was the biggest marketing hurdle. Do you get a better result from 4 cheaper speakers or two more expensive ones? Yeah, the two won most of those battles.

Home Theater surround was a different story. There was first a large library of content already being released even before there were consumer decoders (VHS HiFi, Beta HiFi, and Laserdisc all had stereo tracks) as the home video transfers were derived from the LtRt matrixed theatrical tracks, and could be easily decoded. Discrete or matrixed 5.1, or even matrixed 3.1 solved problem #1 with a better speaker plan that includes a hard center for a very wide listening window, a clear "front" location driven by the presence of a video display, and smaller satellite speakers with a subwoofer, which are far easier to place, and provide better sound at lower cost. Distances are compensated for during setup (something never provided for in Quad), and all 5.1 coding systems play equally well on the standard ITU array.

I was involved with some early FM Quad live broadcasts in the 1970s. The encoder was a Sansui QS encoder with in-house modifications for better compatibility with SQ decoders. These were concerts with Lr and Rr being fed from suspended mics over the audience. The presentation was good, and there were a few Quad listeners, but only a few. Stereo compatibility was mostly retained too. Mono compatibility? Meh. In the mid 1980s I was involved with another live FM broadcast, this time mixed with the Shure surround encoder (basically a licensed custom version of the Dolby Stereo 4-2-5.1 matrix process with claimed higher performance) and again with Ls and Rs fed with surround mics. The boadcast could have been decoded on any home theater system equipped with a Dolby Surround or Shure decoder. The broadcast went well, but the exta effort in production was extreme, and thus not attempted again.

The argument against Quad of "we have two ears, not four" only works for people with no understanding of spatial hearing, which was the general status of the market at the time.

In the 1930s, Bell Labs conducted some famous experiments in multichannel audio transmission. They favored a massive array of microphones and corresponding transmission channels and speakers, but also concluded that the absolute minimum number of speaker channels required for acceptable stereo was 3, arranged in Left, Center, and Right. Two channels was deemed inadequate because of the fragile phantom center between two speakers, that is highly variable in apparent location with changes in level and head position. Remember, "stereo" does not mean "two", but stems from the Greek word meaning "solid", implying dimensionality and physical position. The reason we got stuck with only two channels has to do with the impracticality of distributing more that two discrete channels on a grooved disc. Spatial hearing processes localization cues from anywhere in a full sphere, which is something even Quad could not replicate, and can only be faked to a minimal extent in a highly restricted listening window with two speakers.
 
The "market confusion" of several different and incompatible Quad systems was certainly a huge factor in it's commercial failure, but there were at least two other significant negative factors.
You are forgetting the key issue that goes beyond technology:

Audio listeners associate dimensional sound as being what they hear in a front row-center seat location at a live show.

Audio listeners did not want sound that appeared to be from center stage, on the stage. They wanted it to come from the left, right and center. While spatial hearing is a nice concept, most listeners to recorded or broadcast music did not understand it or want it or perceive a need for it.

So there was no desirable Unique Selling Proposition for Quad. For video, we are talking movies, not music. Movies can and should have sound coming from all directions, and positioning of sound can be key to a show.

But quad audio never developed consumer appeal and demand.
 
In another thread in the QQ forum, the success of Dolby Labs in reintroducing Surround Sound in ~1982, just about 5 years after Quad faded from the marketplace, is discussed.

Dolby Labs was clever to link Surround Sound to the emerging stereo home video market (LaserDisc in 1978, some cable TV via FM stereo in the early 1980s, Beta HiFi in 1983, VHS HiFi in 1984).

Too bad Dolby Surround encoding wasn't/isn't mono compatible (the surround channel is completely lost) and thus not suitable for AM or FM radio, although a few CDs have been released that are Dolby Surround encoded:

IMHO, RCA should have just forged ahead with their CD-4 single inventory vinyl/same price as stereo concept, the reports of CD-4 disc damage were/are greatly exaggerated. In 1974, Panasonic developed an automatic CD-4 decoder which automatically setup the front/back channel separation (carrier level also needed no adjustment).

Dolby Labs was also singlehandedly responsible for reintroducing discrete Surround Sound in the form of Dolby Digital/AC-3 on the LaserDisc in early 1995.

The members of the QQ forum would likely be interested in reading about your adventures with Quad on the radio.


Kirk Bayne
 
The FCC finally approved quadraphonic FM broadcasting in 1983, by which time it was almost totally irrelevant. If I'm reading the ruling correctly, they cited the then-recent AM Stereo marketplace decision, and did not choose a single system as the standard for quad FM, but rather approved any kind of "program enhancement" as long as it met the basic rules for modulation level and subcarrier bandwidth:


This ruling opened the door for FMX (CBS's noise reduction system which fell on its face when Bose's tests showed it actually made things worse instead of better), ARI (Auto Radio Information, a Blaupunkt-developed predecessor to RDS), and RDS itself.
 
^^^
My system was technically successful and was chosen as the national standard for Quadraphonic FM single station broadcasting and the standards in FCC rules 73.319, 73.322, and 73.323 cover the use of my system.

also:
^^^
...received this from Lou Dorren: "We actually won as the US national standard. It took the FCC so long to approve (March of 1986) that the industry was already dead!"


Maybe ATSC 3.0 DTV audio only [radio] broadcasts are the key to surround sound radio becoming the norm.


Kirk Bayne
 
My system was technically successful and was chosen as the national standard for Quadraphonic FM single station broadcasting and the standards in FCC rules 73.319, 73.322, and 73.323 cover the use of my system.
Lou isn't around anymore to ask for more details, but 73.319 and 73.322 just cover basic rules for FM Stereo and subcarriers, and don't mention anything about quad. And I can't find any reference to 73.323 at all -- either he mistyped or that part of the rules has been deleted.

...received this from Lou Dorren: "We actually won as the US national standard. It took the FCC so long to approve (March of 1986) that the industry was already dead!"
I saw that, but unfortunately the online FCC records don't go back that far.
 
Maybe ATSC 3.0 DTV audio only [radio] broadcasts are the key to surround sound radio becoming the norm.
A: Vehicle or portable receiver manufacturers won't be putting ATSC 3.0 tuner chips in their systems.
B: TV already has Dolby or AC3 surround with (as David mentioned) properly proportioned channel placement.
C: Music artists don't produce music in surround.
 
If you are in a vehicle with a speaker on all four doors (which it has been this way since forever ago), you are technically getting the surround sound experience. Just play around with the bass, treble, fade, and balance options pre-installed and it should be fun!
I could see ATSC 3.0 tv/radio kicking off, but not for the surround sound. You'll likely see this in use in places of business like my local Big O' Tires, which has Music Choice on all the time. It might be more cost effective to buy and use one TV, as opposed to a radio here, and a TV there. šŸ¤·ā€ā™‚ļø
 
If you are in a vehicle with a speaker on all four doors (which it has been this way since forever ago), you are technically getting the surround sound experience.
What you're getting is a vehicle with a lot of speakers to overcome road or vehicle noise, depending on what seat you're in. Isn't the same as true surround sound with a Center, R, L, RR, and LR.
Just play around with the bass, treble, fade, and balance options pre-installed and it should be fun!
And other than changing rough EQ settings, that accomplishes what?
I could see ATSC 3.0 tv/radio kicking off, but not for the surround sound.
Kicking off how?
You'll likely see this in use in places of business like my local Big O' Tires, which has Music Choice on all the time. It might be more cost effective to buy and use one TV, as opposed to a radio here, and a TV there. šŸ¤·ā€ā™‚ļø
Even if they already own a radio? Seems like a low cost no-brainer.
 
What you're getting is a vehicle with a lot of speakers to overcome road or vehicle noise, depending on what seat you're in. Isn't the same as true surround sound with a Center, R, L, RR, and LR.

And other than changing rough EQ settings, that accomplishes what?

Kicking off how?

Even if they already own a radio? Seems like a low cost no-brainer.
That is absolutely true, I apparently just settle for less when it comes to sound, and some vehicles allow you to control how much output each speaker gets. As for my comment about ATSC 3.0, I saw a thread where someone said that a lot of folks are staying home more often, and thus would be more likely to be in front of the TV, why not give them music stations too? Because 3.0 is a sharper standard, it should be able to satisfy even the peculiar audiophiles. I don't know if my store has a radio or not. If they do, then it seems odd to buy a TV for any reason, and then pay for cable. If the TV came first, then their needs would be satisfied that way.
 

(Atmos might even be in the 4 door electric Ford Mustang, while we wait for the 4 door electric Corvette) ;)


Kirk Bayne
 
(Atmos might even be in the 4 door electric Ford Mustang, while we wait for the 4 door electric Corvette)
In my view it was wrong for Ford to taint the Mustang brand (again), by giving it this time to an electric crossover. Somehow I doubt GM would be so foolish as to do the same for the Corvette, but there is a lot of peer and public pressure to go all electric by 2035.

To me, it would be better to retire the brand, than ruin the long-standing legend and collectors aspects by sticking battery packs in them. Electric cars are fast and all, at least until the battery runs out. There are so many other aspects to certain fossil fueled vehicles, like the Corvette and, to a certain extent, the Mustang.

And of all people to condone electric cars. You do know that AM radio tuners aren't included in electric vehicles?
 
AM definitely didn't need that extra stab wound, but I figured it was coming, in the name of Green. This would almost certainly usher in a wave of new translators on FM if it wasn't for that prohibitive cost. We would benefit from a 21st century standard for AM transmissions that would keep them going, like what Mr. Kirk said
 
Status
This thread has been closed due to inactivity. You can create a new thread to discuss this topic.
Back
Top Bottom