Power Boost Makes Big Difference on FM HD

[Barry]

In New York City, most if not all the major FM stations broadcast from the same point, the Empire State Building. That makes it easier to compare their reception than in places where the stations are scattered.
About two years ago, 2 of the Clear Channel stations boosted the power of their HD signals from 1% to 4% of the main FM carrier. Most of the other stations in New York are still at the lower level.
The difference in reception has been very noticeable. Those stations with the higher power have much more solid reception all over the area, compared with the others. Though there are still some dropouts, primarily in hilly areas, overall the experience of listening to them is far more pleasant.
If HD radio is to move forward, perhaps more stations need to upgrade their power as it becomes practical for them to do so. With more cars being equipped with HD radio, perhaps there is still a chance for the technology to catch on if stronger signals become the norm.
I believe that one of the two CC HD stations in New York with the higher power is an example of HD Radio done right. That is WLTW HD2/ New York Country.
It broadcasts country music, a major format that is totally lacking within the city (except for some weak signals from outlying areas). The audio is very good, with decent stereo separation. And since it does not pay to hire personalities for an HD2, they run CC's national Country Road Station. Country Road has personable DJ's, and is quite a polished product with good production.
Maybe HD radio would gain some traction if there were more stations like this-running stronger power, aimed at major format holes in various markets, and offering personalities, even if syndicated or national.

 

[MRFLASHPORT]

Even with a power increase, stations would have to actually invest in carrying unique programming. The corporate broadcasters in my market, Atlanta, have turned this entire dial into nothing but a wasteland of mouthpieces, hip hop and top 40.

HD radio offers very little additional programming here, coverage issues aside. Only TWO commercial stations, WSB-FM HD2 (very soft A/C), and recently, when ClearChannel flipped former WKLS (now WWPW) to CHR/whatver, they added the former Alternative rock to 96.1HD2, only after an uproar from former listeners. Everyone else who does have their HD on just either uses it to shill out the sub carriers to justify operating translators, or runs a one-off of their main analog channel, or nothing at all. When Cumulus flipped 106.7 to all news, they dropped the Smooth Jazz that used to be on 106.7HD2 and replaced it with...NOTHING.

I don't see these corporate owned stations doing anything to attract niche listeners in this market with HD radio. HD subchannels can go off for weeks before anyone does anything about it. The fact that no one complains should speak volumes about the number of people who simply aren't listening. And with the lack of programming in this market, no surprise.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

I just don't see this. It is possible that it might help in fixed locations. But my experience - even on flat terrain with no tall buildings around is that everything that hits analog reception will still hit HD reception. What is more, the power fluctuations are 10's of dB's, a paltry 4 to 6 dB increase will only delay the inevitable slightly. You go under a major overpass, pass by a building, go down a 10 to 15 foot dip - HD drops, and the analog signal is weak - blending into mono on my radio. Just as quickly, it comes right back to full separation, and HD lock comes back several seconds later. Not too annoying on HD-1, at least you still hear the station. But very annoying on HD-2.

I'm not talking about some fringe situation. I am talking full class C - 100 kW on 2000 foot towers, less than 20 miles away, flat terrain, towers visible. The most sensitive car radio available, with a 31 inch whip on the car. A radio that pulls a station 150 miles away so reliably it is on my presets, nothing wrong with the radio or antenna, nothing wrong with the class C stations - all of them pretty much drop in the same places. HD dropouts at 20 miles? 4 to 6 dB more signal isn't going to help when the signal fluctuates 40 to 60 dB.

 

[RichardOShea]

The only changes I've heard with HD power increase is a slight improvement in areas where the analog suffers from gross multipath. Otherwise, eh.

 

[Barry]

I can't speak for other parts of the country, but here in the New York Metro area the few HD stations with higher power have noticeably more solid reception, both indoors and on the move. There are dramatically fewer dropouts and the signals can be heard reliably about 15-20 miles further out. And as I mentioned in my original post, the fact that all the major FM stations broadcast from the same location make comparisons easier. As the Class B FM's in New York generally run 6000 watts, the majority of HD signals that are only 1% of this are a mere 60 watts. Would solid coverage of a metro region be expected of an analog signal that was only 60 watts?
Perhaps in areas that are less built up or more mountainous, the difference in reception is not as great ?

 

[someperson]

Even with a power increase, stations would have to actually invest in carrying unique programming. The corporate broadcasters in my market, Atlanta, have turned this entire dial into nothing but a wasteland of mouthpieces, hip hop and top 40.

HD radio offers very little additional programming here, coverage issues aside. Only TWO commercial stations, WSB-FM HD2 (very soft A/C), and recently, when ClearChannel flipped former WKLS (now WWPW) to CHR/whatver, they added the former Alternative rock to 96.1HD2, only after an uproar from former listeners. Everyone else who does have their HD on just either uses it to shill out the sub carriers to justify operating translators, or runs a one-off of their main analog channel, or nothing at all. When Cumulus flipped 106.7 to all news, they dropped the Smooth Jazz that used to be on 106.7HD2 and replaced it with...NOTHING.

I don't see these corporate owned stations doing anything to attract niche listeners in this market with HD radio. HD subchannels can go off for weeks before anyone does anything about it. The fact that no one complains should speak volumes about the number of people who simply aren't listening. And with the lack of programming in this market, no surprise.

Here in Houston, with few exceptions, the analog airwaves are also a corporate wasteland, but there are quite a few notable HD2s. KODA-HD2 and KHMX-HD2 run smooth jazz, KRBE-HD2 and KGLK-HD2 run oldies, and KKHH-HD2 runs dance/electronic music. There are probably others that I can't remember off the top of my head (and my Insignia portable broke, so I can't check). None of these formats is available on analog radio at all, and they are not being used to feed translators. As far as I can tell, their only purpose is to attract niche listeners.

 

[Tom Wells]

I'd love to know how the higher powered Empire State signals compare in places where everyting got built down in
a crevice, like Danbury or Poughkeepsie.

Some places seem to defy radio reception, for many different reasons.
I wonder how many of those who drive 40-60 miles into NYC each day can actually listen to NYC signals on FM the whole way, how many have two sets of presets (downtown and home), and how many simply listen to a big AM news or whatever
station, that does work on the entire commute.


I recall NYC FMs being like a game of hide and seek up in Danbury/Ridgefield CT, and there were lots of people who
commuted to the city every day.

By comparison, FM works better out of Chicago at that distance because the terrain in mostly flat.

When I traveled, Danbury was a frequent destination, and the behavior of FM with built in windshield antennas was
disappointing to me, so I mostly listened to AM there if I wanted to listen to a "downtown" station.

 

[DavidEduardo]

With more cars being equipped with HD radio, perhaps there is still a chance for the technology to catch on if stronger signals become the norm.

The whole problem is that consumers are moving away from radio distributed by towers and transmitters.

While I saw a reaction of "a phone is not a radio" from Jerry del Colliano to the industry outcry at not having an FM radio in the iPhone 5, nobody is buying stand-alone radios. All the new technology from cloud-based storage and apps to improvements in mobile communication speed have to do with consolidating all entertainment and even personal data on a single device or single cloud source.

Cars in the US average near 11 in age, so if every new car today had HD, it would take a decade to get 50% in-car penetration, with no guarantee that HD would be used. And that leaves out the two-thirds of radio listening that is not in the car.

HD is not a savior technology for radio, and potentially distracts station operators from providing the content distribution that listeners really want.

 

[MRFLASHPORT]

Even with a power increase, stations would have to actually invest in carrying unique programming. The corporate broadcasters in my market, Atlanta, have turned this entire dial into nothing but a wasteland of mouthpieces, hip hop and top 40.

HD radio offers very little additional programming here, coverage issues aside. Only TWO commercial stations, WSB-FM HD2 (very soft A/C), and recently, when ClearChannel flipped former WKLS (now WWPW) to CHR/whatver, they added the former Alternative rock to 96.1HD2, only after an uproar from former listeners. Everyone else who does have their HD on just either uses it to shill out the sub carriers to justify operating translators, or runs a one-off of their main analog channel, or nothing at all. When Cumulus flipped 106.7 to all news, they dropped the Smooth Jazz that used to be on 106.7HD2 and replaced it with...NOTHING.

I don't see these corporate owned stations doing anything to attract niche listeners in this market with HD radio. HD subchannels can go off for weeks before anyone does anything about it. The fact that no one complains should speak volumes about the number of people who simply aren't listening. And with the lack of programming in this market, no surprise.

Here in Houston, with few exceptions, the analog airwaves are also a corporate wasteland, but there are quite a few notable HD2s. KODA-HD2 and KHMX-HD2 run smooth jazz, KRBE-HD2 and KGLK-HD2 run oldies, and KKHH-HD2 runs dance/electronic music. There are probably others that I can't remember off the top of my head (and my Insignia portable broke, so I can't check). None of these formats is available on analog radio at all, and they are not being used to feed translators. As far as I can tell, their only purpose is to attract niche listeners.

See, that is exactly why I bought an HD Radio in the first place, to get formats that have been ignored by the main carriers. And the listings on Ibiquity's site was wrong, they list stations (such as WCLK, a college station) as being in HD. It's not- in fact, I talked to their CE and he laughed and said "with what money? We run off donations, and Ibiquity isn't exactly a charitable organization" and was dumbfounded as to why it was listed. 106.7's Smooth Jazz is still listed, despite being gone for months.
WSBB-FM is listed in having a Top 40 on their HD-2, it's not here, nor is their HD at all, and hasn't been, in over a year or more.
Should have asked on the forums before buying the radio, but in the end, it has a USB port and Iphone control, so I can still get what I want anyway, just not from radio.

I though we would have the promised and touted in radio spots, ironically by the same corporate stations, variety of programming. It simply isn't there in this market. I wonder how many people discover this, and just go back to satellite, Ipod, Internet, MP3 and say "oh well" like I pretty much have.

It seems the only stations with 3 active HD channels (WSTR and WWWQ) use them for is to feed translators. and they're not actually doing that, as the audio on the HD subchannels is mono and sounds like a phone line, yet the translators are outputting stereo with full bandwidth. Yeah, nothing like loopholes.

 

[KB1OKL]

See, that is exactly why I bought an HD Radio in the first place, to get formats that have been ignored by the main carriers. And the listings on Ibiquity's site was wrong, they list stations (such as WCLK, a college station) as being in HD. It's not- in fact, I talked to their CE and he laughed and said "with what money? We run off donations, and Ibiquity isn't exactly a charitable organization" and was dumbfounded as to why it was listed. 106.7's Smooth Jazz is still listed, despite being gone for months.
WSBB-FM is listed in having a Top 40 on their HD-2, it's not here, nor is their HD at all, and hasn't been, in over a year or more.
Should have asked on the forums before buying the radio, but in the end, it has a USB port and Iphone control, so I can still get what I want anyway, just not from radio.

You don't think that ibiquity is actually going to admit publicly that their lousy technology is slowly being abandoned do you?

 

[rbrucecarter5]

I can't speak for other parts of the country, but here in the New York Metro area the few HD stations with higher power have noticeably more solid reception, both indoors and on the move. There are dramatically fewer dropouts and the signals can be heard reliably about 15-20 miles further out. And as I mentioned in my original post, the fact that all the major FM stations broadcast from the same location make comparisons easier. As the Class B FM's in New York generally run 6000 watts, the majority of HD signals that are only 1% of this are a mere 60 watts. Would solid coverage of a metro region be expected of an analog signal that was only 60 watts?
Perhaps in areas that are less built up or more mountainous, the difference in reception is not as great ?

The only theory I have is that the slightly higher power is countering multipath by overpowering it. I notice HD dropouts beside large buildings with a lot of bulk to them, perhaps that would improve. But outside of the downtown area and maybe some satellite mini-downtowns, most of Houston is flat with 2 to 5 story buildings in commercial areas, if that. When land is relatively cheap, people build horizontally. When land is expensive, people build up, I guess. So the multipath problem would be noticable to people working and living in or around downtown, maybe the Galleria and medical center. Other areas - the slight power increase wouldn't help. The biggest problem I have is in parking garages - HD is GONE when you drive in. Anybody have experience with HD reception on power increased stations in parking garages?

I still think - if the software can handle it - the best way of increasing coverage would be to move the sidebands inward, to near the upper limit of the stereo information. That way you would get a free sensitivity boost from the gain / bandwidth product reduction. Certainly a lot cheaper for stations than re-engineering a transmitter and tower to accommodate more sideband power.

 

[DaveBayArea]

Here in the Sierra Nevada mountains of California we increased the power. The station is KVMR on 89.5. It helped building penetration locally on my little HD-01, but I'm pretty sure that's the only portable receiver in town. So nobody but me noticed. If you look at the longley-rice coverage map for this station you'll see that there is a very small area with high field strength, and if you do the same for our neighbors (89.3 and 89.7) you'll see that they're also very strong right in our home town. The result is, even 5 miles from the transmitter our HD signal is covered up by 1st adjacent analog signals.

Conversely, down in Sacramento we provide significant interference to 89.3, the NPR station there - and they do the same to us in Auburn, the largest city in our coverage area. The use of adjacent channels for a digital signal may work in New York City, but it has big problems in the mountains of California.

Dave B.

 

[brian.marchand]

WCBU 89.9 in Peoria, IL increased their digital power from 260 watts to 1060 watts around 10/26/2011. I could tell the reception was much better. In a house where before you had to have the antenna extended about 2/3 now does not have to be extended at all to get great reception. Reception in a basement was stronger. Reception walking around in a house with the portable insignia was rock solid while good before may have had a dropout once in a while. I tried a few times to use the portable insignia in the car and that did not work very well before the power increase. But after the power increase the portable insignia worked better. Car reception on an after market JVC car radio was always good within the city but had dropouts during early morning propagation in the summer once for me in a small town 20 miles away. But after the power increase reception was solid there too all the time.

 

[JohnnyElectron]

Unfortunately, I just don't see many stations taking advantage of the increased power. Unless they have a separate HD transmitter and HD antenna, so much power is wasted in the combiner that I don't see these stations spending any money to improve the FM HD signal.
For that matter, the local HD station that uses HD2 to feed their translator has had the HD off for two weeks, and I've gotten nothing but snotty remarks when I remind them they are broadcasting illegally on their translator by 'originating' programming without a relay from an existing broadcast station (HD2).

 

[rbrucecarter5]

Unfortunately, I just don't see many stations taking advantage of the increased power. Unless they have a separate HD transmitter and HD antenna, so much power is wasted in the combiner that I don't see these stations spending any money to improve the FM HD signal.
For that matter, the local HD station that uses HD2 to feed their translator has had the HD off for two weeks, and I've gotten nothing but snotty remarks when I remind them they are broadcasting illegally on their translator by 'originating' programming without a relay from an existing broadcast station (HD2).

I heard a lot of buzz about why HD stations needed to increase power. Several years ago, I conducted a study of how well HD radio propagates. I selected a listening location 70 miles from the Dallas towers. I set up a Sangean HDT-1X with a dipole 1 meter off the ground, which I heard somewhere is the scientific standard for such tests. All - as in all - Dallas HD stations locked with no problem whatsoever. My test site was well beyond the limits of the metro area, there were sparsely spaced farm houses and a lot of cows. So HD radio was obviously covering the DFW metro area just fine as it was, with no power increase. Another observer has similar results on Houston stations at 84 miles, only with a dipole at the ceiling.

With a coverage radius of 70 miles, probably 84 miles, I see no reason for a power increase. Such ranges are comparable to FM stereo, the analog signal is blending to mono at those ranges anyway. Perhaps the power increase is an attempt to counter the miserable antennas found today on cars and portables. I've found, designing wireless systems through the years, that when one has designed a decent transmission system, the next avenue of research should be the antenna. Doubling transmit power also doubles the supply current and makes the transmitting elements correspondingly hotter / bigger / etc. But making the antenna bigger and better comes at no power penalty. It is a trade-off as most things are. I think - given the self interference observations some people have made on HD stations with increased HD levels - the primary analog signal is degraded and noisy - that HD sideband power was already max'ed out before the proposed power increase. Any further improvements should be put back into receive antennas - persuade auto makers to put whip antennas back on cars, make sure portables have something better than internal / headphone wire antennas. Not only would that benefit HD and make it more viable, it would also benefit listeners who are not listening to HD, giving them decent stereo reception again.

 

[JohnnyElectron]

It's quite flat in my part of Ohio, but a 6KW rimshot HD FM only covers its COL and does a constant back and forth in the targeted Metro area in my car HD. Likewise a 30KW 30 miles away can't keep a lock, and I can't get the portable HD to lock on it at all. The only three FM HD's that give me a lock are the two 50KW ERP stations (most we can have here by the border) and 1 19kw.

 

[iyiyi]

If these clowns stop playing footsie with power increases, this baby will take off. The analog/digital TV switch proved that. After 10 years of simulcasting analog and digital signals, stations suddenly realized (after the analog sunset, of course) that HD digital signals were vastly underpowered. Rummage sale activity ruled TV land with a large number of stations requesting frequency, power and height changes. Now, three + years after the switch, most TV stations are finally covering their markets with a usable signal and practical powers. Many UHF stations are operating with digital power levels about 1/3 of analog power. That is much more than the original -10dBc or less that someone THOUGHT was sufficient.

HD VHF and MW signals should START at -6dBc and increase power from there until practical market coverage is realized!

REMEMBER: About 25 years ago some Einstein stated "640K of memory is all that computers will ever need". Yeah, right...

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[rbrucecarter5]

If these clowns stop playing footsie with power increases, this baby will take off. The analog/digital TV switch proved that. After 10 years of simulcasting analog and digital signals, stations suddenly realized (after the analog sunset, of course) that HD digital signals were vastly underpowered. Rummage sale activity ruled TV land with a large number of stations requesting frequency, power and height changes. Now, three + years after the switch, most TV stations are finally covering their markets with a usable signal and practical powers. Many UHF stations are operating with digital power levels about 1/3 of analog power. That is much more than the original -10dBc or less that someone THOUGHT was sufficient.

HD VHF and MW signals should START at -6dBc and increase power from there until practical market coverage is realized!

REMEMBER: About 25 years ago some Einstein stated "640K of memory is all that computers will ever need". Yeah, right...

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Yeah - all those cows really need HD coverage here in Texas. Lets increase sideband power until every cow in the state can hear HD signals. Why stop at -14 dB, let's give'em all they want. No cow left behind ----

And if it wasn't for the memory and processor hog Windows, 640k would have been enough for a long time.

 

[xmtrland]

"If these clowns stop playing footsie with power increases, this baby will take off."

By Clowns you mean Ibiquity. It's their system broadcasters are using. It's Ibiquity and the FCC that set the current power standards, so they are the clowns...Yes. It's Ibiquity that said this would work while serving up the cool-aid with a high user fee.

How much money are broadcasters paying these clowns who said these original power levels will work!!!!.... Broadcasters were told by Ibiquity that this will work, now that the system is deployed they say, ad more power if you want it to work right. Ibiquity should have stood firm for higher power from the start, it's their fault where HD radio is now.

iyiyi you just pointed out that Ibiquity has no backbone and a broken HD system. To sell an HD system that does not work at the original power level and fix it latter if any one notices with a power increase....ya something a clown would do.

Thank you for clarifying that Ibiquity and the FCC (maybe even the NAB) were part of the Clown Circus know as HD radio.

Maybe if ibiquity would have been upfront on what it really would take to make their system run right, with power levels that wipe out adjacent FM stations that don't want to pay their licensing fee, broadcasters would have demanded a better system. Now this is sounding more like a bait and switch with the broadcaster caught in the middle.

iyiyi, your responses sound like they are generated from an IBM-Watson computer (operated by some HD loving company) running on 640K of memory.

 

[iyiyi]

"If these clowns stop playing footsie with power increases, this baby will take off."

By Clowns you mean Ibiquity. It's their system broadcasters are using. It's Ibiquity and the FCC that set the current power standards, so they are the clowns...Yes. It's Ibiquity that said this would work while serving up the cool-aid with a high user fee.

How much money are broadcasters paying these clowns who said these original power levels will work!!!!.... Broadcasters were told by Ibiquity that this will work, now that the system is deployed they say, ad more power if you want it to work right. Ibiquity should have stood firm for higher power from the start, it's their fault where HD radio is now.

iyiyi you just pointed out that Ibiquity has no backbone and a broken HD system. To sell an HD system that does not work at the original power level and fix it latter if any one notices with a power increase....ya something a clown would do.

Thank you for clarifying that Ibiquity and the FCC (maybe even the NAB) were part of the Clown Circus know as HD radio

Until you can produce any posts or etc backing your inference of my statements that you ascribe to me: You, my friend, are talking straight out of your asshole.

I got something to say to someone, I say it. If I had or have any negative thing to discuss with iBiquity or others; I would deal directly with THEM! Til then, I'll just speak for myself. Thanks! I don't need a self appointed prophet.

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