Online radio listening posts..

[cd637299]

I had never even heard of WHBY until this thread!

 

[cyberdad]

Well we've established that WHBY makes it over to Europe, but I wonder what else is on 1150. There is at least one other station in there.

CKOC would be easy enough to identify because it's pretty much wall-to-wall music (oldies). I'm surprised it doesn't make it (if indeed it doesn't). If you look at the higher-powered Toronto-area stations, most of the the nighttime patterns seem to be pretty much in alignment with the Chicago-London flight path. Not a polar route, but the "circle route". The flight path goes over Toronto, then up the St. Lawrence, over Labrador and Newfoundland and across the southern tip of Greenland before curving south to Iceland, Ireland, and the UK.

CFTR seems to pretty much follow this path, but CKOC doesn't quite. CKOC is tilted more to the north. but still has a pretty good signal to the northeast. The two stations' sticks are pretty much in the same general area of Hamilton, ON. CHUM and CFRB are aimed a little more to the east, but still throw plenty of juice in a northeasterly direction.

My (admittedly naive) assumption would be that radio waves also follow the shortest path between two points, as do aircraft.

 

[radioman148]

Well we've established that WHBY makes it over to Europe, but I wonder what else is on 1150. There is at least one other station in there.

CKOC would be easy enough to identify because it's pretty much wall-to-wall music (oldies). I'm surprised it doesn't make it (if indeed it doesn't). If you look at the higher-powered Toronto-area stations, most of the the nighttime patterns seem to be pretty much in alignment with the Chicago-London flight path. Not a polar route, but the "circle route". The flight path goes over Toronto, then up the St. Lawrence, over Labrador and Newfoundland and across the southern tip of Greenland before curving south to Iceland, Ireland, and the UK.

CFTR seems to pretty much follow this path, but CKOC doesn't quite. CKOC is tilted more to the north. but still has a pretty good signal to the northeast. The two stations' sticks are pretty much in the same general area of Hamilton, ON. CHUM and CFRB are aimed a little more to the east, but still throw plenty of juice in a northeasterly direction.

My (admittedly naive) assumption would be that radio waves also follow the shortest path between two points, as do aircraft.

I also have always assumed that radio waves take the shortest path. Regarding CKOC I would also think that it should make it over there.
I'll try again for it. The beauty of all this is right now we are in prime time MW DX season.

 

[cyberdad]

I had never even heard of WHBY until this thread!

For years, WHBY was on 1230 (IIRC). Then 1150 opened up in the mid '60s when WISN (Milwaukee) moved from there to 1130. Shortly after that point, an 1150 came on with 5kw in Appleton, about 80 miles up the road from where WISN had been. As things unfolded, the WHBY calls wound up on 1150. Not sure if it was a migration of the original WHBY or something else. Then a couple of years ago, the power got bumped up to 20kw days, 25 kw nights...directional to the northeast.

The current version of WHBY has Kimberly, WI as the COL. But as a practical matter, the market is Green Bay-Fox Cities (Neenah, Menasha, Appleton and vacinity).

 

[pianoplayer88key]

My (admittedly naive) assumption would be that radio waves also follow the shortest path between two points, as do aircraft.

I also have always assumed that radio waves take the shortest path. Regarding CKOC I would also think that it should make it over there.
I'll try again for it. The beauty of all this is right now we are in prime time MW DX season.

This is something I've been wondering about, well, actually a little twist to it.

Let's say you've got a 100+kW station below 800 kHz that's about 1000+ miles away. The entire direct-circle path is salt water, except where some land mass is across your path for about maybe 50 miles (and you have to go maybe 100 miles off course at that location to get to saltwater). The conductivity of the land, let's assume, is fairly poor, like 2 mS/m for the most part, maybe 4 mS/m within a few miles of the coast. (Saltwater is assumed to be 5,000 mS/m.) (Other than that land mass mentioned, when I say the entire path is saltwater, I mean you're standing up to your waist in the surf holding your radio (with its built-in 8" ferrite bar) and 4-foot tuned box loop, and their transmitter site is right on the beach with ground radials going into the water, and possibly even the base of the tower getting wet / standing in water at high tide.)

Would that land mass significantly attenuate the signal, or is it possible the signal could "bend around" the land, following the saltwater / path of least resistance, even if it's a physically longer path?

 

[radioman148]

Got a new one tonight on the Ireland receiver, CHUM broadcasting the NFL MNF game between the 49ers & Steelers.

 

[gar hi]

My (admittedly naive) assumption would be that radio waves also follow the shortest path between two points, as do aircraft.

I also have always assumed that radio waves take the shortest path. Regarding CKOC I would also think that it should make it over there.
I'll try again for it. The beauty of all this is right now we are in prime time MW DX season.

This is something I've been wondering about, well, actually a little twist to it.

Let's say you've got a 100+kW station below 800 kHz that's about 1000+ miles away. The entire direct-circle path is salt water, except where some land mass is across your path for about maybe 50 miles (and you have to go maybe 100 miles off course at that location to get to saltwater). The conductivity of the land, let's assume, is fairly poor, like 2 mS/m for the most part, maybe 4 mS/m within a few miles of the coast. (Saltwater is assumed to be 5,000 mS/m.) (Other than that land mass mentioned, when I say the entire path is saltwater, I mean you're standing up to your waist in the surf holding your radio (with its built-in 8" ferrite bar) and 4-foot tuned box loop, and their transmitter site is right on the beach with ground radials going into the water, and possibly even the base of the tower getting wet / standing in water at high tide.)

Would that land mass significantly attenuate the signal, or is it possible the signal could "bend around" the land, following the saltwater / path of least resistance, even if it's a physically longer path?

I've wondered the very same thing for a while and I even brought it up a long time ago here but I don't think there's a definite answer to that.

When I heard a listenable signal to KFI at 300 miles up near the ocean in Santa Cruz midday, I thought maybe that could apply but then again, that could be really pushing it because there's a very solid land path up until Monterey.

But on the other hand, I've noticed here in Florida how some distant stations within the state that have a signal path across land that I either can't receive or are barely audible during the day here in Tampa come in drastically better out at the beaches at the Gulf on the barrier islands. In the thread about DXing in the Villages, for example, I mentioned how a station from the middle of the state near Orlando can't be heard at all here in the daytime but has a listenable signal over at the beach which is even a little more distant from the transmitter.

Although it seems to defy the laws of physics, there is something about saltwater that seems anyway to enhance an AM signal.

 

[vibe]

I agree; have seen enhanced AM signals at the beach (Gulf) that have a 100% land path. Merry Christmas-vibe.

 

[K4WRF]

My (admittedly naive) assumption would be that radio waves also follow the shortest path between two points, as do aircraft.

I also have always assumed that radio waves take the shortest path. Regarding CKOC I would also think that it should make it over there.
I'll try again for it. The beauty of all this is right now we are in prime time MW DX season.

This is something I've been wondering about, well, actually a little twist to it.

Let's say you've got a 100+kW station below 800 kHz that's about 1000+ miles away. The entire direct-circle path is salt water, except where some land mass is across your path for about maybe 50 miles (and you have to go maybe 100 miles off course at that location to get to saltwater). The conductivity of the land, let's assume, is fairly poor, like 2 mS/m for the most part, maybe 4 mS/m within a few miles of the coast. (Saltwater is assumed to be 5,000 mS/m.) (Other than that land mass mentioned, when I say the entire path is saltwater, I mean you're standing up to your waist in the surf holding your radio (with its built-in 8" ferrite bar) and 4-foot tuned box loop, and their transmitter site is right on the beach with ground radials going into the water, and possibly even the base of the tower getting wet / standing in water at high tide.)

Would that land mass significantly attenuate the signal, or is it possible the signal could "bend around" the land, following the saltwater / path of least resistance, even if it's a physically longer path?

I've wondered the very same thing for a while and I even brought it up a long time ago here but I don't think there's a definite answer to that.

When I heard a listenable signal to KFI at 300 miles up near the ocean in Santa Cruz midday, I thought maybe that could apply but then again, that could be really pushing it because there's a very solid land path up until Monterey.

But on the other hand, I've noticed here in Florida how some distant stations within the state that have a signal path across land that I either can't receive or are barely audible during the day here in Tampa come in drastically better out at the beaches at the Gulf on the barrier islands. In the thread about DXing in the Villages, for example, I mentioned how a station from the middle of the state near Orlando can't be heard at all here in the daytime but has a listenable signal over at the beach which is even a little more distant from the transmitter.

Although it seems to defy the laws of physics, there is something about saltwater that seems anyway to enhance an AM signal.

I feel it’s more of a misunderstanding of physical properties of electromagnetic field propagation rather than defiance of same, “Energy may neither be created nor destroyed, but conserved.” Antenna systems may indeed rival the Bible or perhaps God in misunderstanding of their properties. With that said, here is how I see the situation: For these purposes and concepts, the observer must consider antenna propagation on a *global* or over-all basis, rather than a *radial* or straight-line basis and local admittance conditions on either end of the path. In measuring out radials from a radiating point source, you will find steady predictable signal attenuation along a path where the soil conductivity is constant. In instances where the measurer crosses a sudden improved conductivity change, (example: 2 ms of sand shifting to 5000 ms of salt-water or similar over-land shifts) you will see the field intensity rise almost like you are going back towards the antenna, then at some point after a transition, start to attenuate again according to the new level of local conductivity. Radials don’t bend horizontally, only vertically over the curvature of the earth. Conductivities may bend and change dramatically over the path of a radial, but the field vector, if I may use that term, will always point back towards the origin.

Now, to quote Forrest Gump, “That’s all I’ll have to say about that!”

Merry Christmas everyone!
w/

 

[gar hi]

In instances where the measurer crosses a sudden improved conductivity change, (example: 2 ms of sand shifting to 5000 ms of salt-water or similar over-land shifts) you will see the field intensity rise almost like you are going back towards the antenna, then at some point after a transition, start to attenuate again according to the new level of local conductivity.

I guess that explains the much stronger signals from distant inland AM stations at the beach on a barrier island as opposed to inland.

A good example of that is 560 WQAM which is barely audible daytime here in Tampa but has a good listenable signal out at the beaches on the Gulf even in spite of the splatter from the local on 570.

Other examples are WORL and WYGM from Orlando which are barely audible here in Tampa daytime but much stronger and easily listenable out at the Gulf beaches.

Another interesting one is 1700 WJCC Miami Springs which can only be heard midday in Tampa at times during the middle of winter but I've always heard it out on the beach in Dunedin midday even in the summer.

Conductivities may bend and change dramatically over the path of a radial, but the field vector, if I may use that term, will always point back towards the origin.

So I take it that means we're correct in what we're thinking about signals on saltwater where there may be some land in between?

 

[cyberdad]

In instances where the measurer crosses a sudden improved conductivity change, (example:  2 ms of sand shifting to 5000 ms of salt-water or similar over-land shifts) you will see the field intensity rise almost like you are going back towards the antenna, then at some point after a transition, start to attenuate again according to the new level of local conductivity.

I guess that explains the much stronger signals from distant inland AM stations at the beach on a barrier island as opposed to inland.

A good example of that is 560 WQAM which is barely audible daytime here in Tampa but has a good listenable signal out at the beaches on the Gulf even in spite of the splatter from the local on 570.

Other examples are WORL and WYGM from Orlando which are barely audible here in Tampa daytime but much stronger and easily listenable out at the Gulf beaches.

Another interesting one is 1700 WJCC Miami Springs which can only be heard midday in Tampa at times during the middle of winter but I've always heard it out on the beach in Dunedin midday even in the summer.

Conductivities may bend and change dramatically over the path of a radial, but the field vector, if I may use that term, will always point back towards the origin.

So I take it that means we're correct in what we're thinking about signals on saltwater where there may be some land in between?

I think we may be getting at something here.  And....to make a long story short.... this all somewhat mirrors my experiences at the place where we generally spend a few weeks each year on the beach near Pensacola.  Perdido Key, FL/Gulf shores, AL, which is all the same barrier island.  What doesn't quite add is up, however is the beach reception of stations coming via a purely land path (as opposed to salt water path) isn't all that much different from across the lagoon on the mainland.  Perhaps that's because the lagoon is relatively narrow in most places...a mile or less.

Back to the original topic....   Glad to year, Radioman, about your CHUM catch. Confirms that CHUM should be do-able on the other side of the pond.  A major lobe of their signal actually lines up almost perfectly with the Chicago-London flight path.  That's not a polar route...but rather a circle route which roughly follows the St. Lawrence Seaway, then on over Labrador and Newfoundland to just below the southern tip of Greenland before arcing back southeast to Iceland, Ireland, and Great Britian.   My assumption being that radio waves....at least skywave...would be following the shortest distance between two points, taking into account the shape of the planet.

You'll have to excuse me for having that flight path on the brain.  Daughter flies home for the holidays from the UK tomorrow! 

 

[radioman148]

Got CHUM again tonight, but in a much tougher struggle with several stations including WEPN briefly.

 

[crainbebo]

Here's what I heard tonight (0700 GMT)

570 Radio Reloj Cuba, weak but heard RR code...mixing with another with music, maybe CFCB?
590 surprisingly...no VOCM, only splatter
600 talk station, likely CBNA-NF
660 WFAN New York City
700 WLW...lots of splatter however
740 CFZM mixing with one other
770 WABC good signal
780 WBBM good signal
1050 quite a mess
1130 WBBR mixing with others
1150 likely WHBY again with talk

-crainbebo

 

[NoMoreLurking]

Hi everybody, first time caller, long time reader of this forum....

The N. Ireland rcvr is just too much fun not to share. Here are some of my results from last night just before 0800Z...much like crainbebo's except I did hear VOCM-590 and the same programming on 650, CKGA?

Also...

570-Reloj unmistakable
610-WIOD strong and surprising
660-WFAN fair
680-CFTR with a rumble of other signals down deep
700-WLW weak
930-CFBC oldies
950-mix of two, one oldies, one religion
1010-CFRB WINS battle with CFRB winning
1030-WBZ weak
1050-CHUM WEPN fight, CHUM wins by decision of the judges
1130-WBBR strong, Blasting Bloomberg Radio
1150-trying for the Wisconsin signal and heard talk but nothing conclusive
1190-trying for WLIB, music heard but just barely
1200-Talk and Fox News, WXKS?
1310-Sports play by play, no ID
1510-Presumed WWZN sports
1560-Radio Disney, presumed WQEW
1600 and above - lots of signals but no positive IDs. Suspect the Spanish on 1660 was WWRU but can't be sure.

 

[cyberdad]

Also...

1050-CHUM WEPN fight, CHUM wins by decision of the judges

Not unlike the area of southeast Ontario where Tincap lives. Between Toronto and Montreal....but closer to Montreal. These two duke it out every night IME.

 

[cd637299]

WIOD in my backyard, from Europe? Baby!

 

[gar hi]

OK, I just signed up for Global Tuners. I'm excited!

In order to make sure I stick to the rules in their disclaimer and not listen to any broadcast we're not authorized to, how do you make sure that you don't accidently link up to such tuners or restricted frequencies?

I want to go to the tuner in Northern Ireland that's been mentioned here.

What's the exact name of the link and how do you make sure you stay on medium wave only?

 

[radioman148]

OK, I just signed up for Global Tuners. I'm excited!

In order to make sure I stick to the rules in their disclaimer and not listen to any broadcast we're not authorized to, how do you make sure that you don't accidently link up to such tuners or restricted frequencies?

I want to go to the tuner in Northern Ireland that's been mentioned here.

What's the exact name of the link and how do you make sure you stay on medium wave only?

That receiver only has MW--nothing else will work on it. The receiver is called "Atlantic DX". Happy hunting!

 

[cd637299]

Is there anyone who's staying up late who can try that Global Tuner for VOWR 800 in Newfoundland? If not them, who dominates 800? (I know 801 is a Euro frequency but maybe the radio's separation is second to none!)

I did see the YouTube of VOWR reception---Scotland was it?

cd

 

[radioman148]

Is there anyone who's staying up late who can try that Global Tuner for VOWR 800 in Newfoundland? If not them, who dominates 800? (I know 801 is a Euro frequency but maybe the radio's separation is second to none!)

I did see the YouTube of VOWR reception---Scotland was it?

cd

I've tried 800, but I've never been able to make out anything there. I'll try again soon.