NYC rock

[DavidEduardo]

What would you expect from this guy, read all his posts, he is so anti-any form of Rock and so pro-Urban/Dance its pathetic.

Where do you read a predisposition against rock into a comment about the fact that in one rock format, Alternative, there is no consensus even among format partisans?

My point was to reinforce Big A's statement that rock has fragmented and continues to fragment. Because there are so many subsets to the generic "rock" category, listeners to individual stations tend to not be satisfied with a significant percentage of the songs... creating a fertile ground for multiple streamed formats catering to each subset.

That's just a reality.

I am not just "pro Urban / Dance" (which is a weird statement since Urban and Dance don't even overlap and are separate formats that are miles apart), I am "pro" any format that appeals to a significant listener base. AC, Country, CHR, Regional Mexican, whatever.

One of my most successful stations was a rock format in a market a bit larger than New York City and which reached as high as a 22 share. Hard to do if you do not respect the genre, the music, the artists and the lifestyle.

 

[Unregistered]

Philly has rock on WMMR & WRFF. Hard to understand why rock would not get decent ratings in the HUGE NYC
metro market.
Maybe a NYC station willl try it again at some point. Does WAXQ air some current rock now & then or just
stay with classic rock ?

 

[Unregistered]

NYC does not have an adult hits station either. (had JACK FM ) (doubt it will be tried again, )
And, NYC has Country but on a poor signal into parts of the city. (94.7---WNSH ).

 

[reelyreal]

I was listening to Marc Maron's WTF podcast this weekend, and listened to his interview with rock journalist Marc Spitz. Spitz spent a considerable amount of time interviewing rock acts and writing on the scene for Spin, and writes now for the New York Times, Vanity Fair, and a few other outlets.

Two interesting points came up. The first was that New York City is no longer the old NYC. NYC used to be a dangerous risky place, where creative types could come to find other like-minded people in the days before the internet. Spitz's opinion was that the internet is more NYC today than NYC is.

The other topic was whether the "spirit" of rock and roll exists in the 19-20 year olds today. I'm not sure that it does. If the rock spirit doesn't resonate with the youngest generation coming up, it's certainly not going to thrive. I think that's part of what's happening today. Sure, there are kids in that generation that love rock, but not in the numbers they used to, and again... the scene is incredibly fragmented.

As a rock fan, I'm so much more happier with the streaming options available to me. I used to have to listen to K-Rock and only like every third song... now I can like every song I hear on Pandora.

 

[mikerock]

If you had ever conducted an music test, you would know that there is no overwhelming broad acceptance. There are multiple subsets of listeners, each of which hate part of what the other subsets love. They are the greatest candidates for much more niche streams than any other format I've ever seen.

This is not the 1990s and the fragmentation just does not apply to what has been on the Alternative charts particularly over the last 3-4 years. Alternative is not the same format it once was. The new Alternative of today sounds more like mainstream pop rock, similar to what dominated the NYC radio dials in the 70s and 80s. (less the urban music). This is where all the new rock is and it is crossing over turning up on AC stations. You cannot even turn on your TV a half hour without hearing at least a few Alternative rock songs being sampled in commercials or TV programs. Same goes if you tune into an AC station or PLJ.

With WAXQ still playing classic rock the comparison is about the same as if CBS-FM stayed with a 50s format without ever updating. CBS-FM updated with the times. The WAXQ format is so old I do not believe it really applies to being part of this fragmentation you speak of.

The Active Rock niche does not have as broad appeal and has a more difficult problem unless you are just targeting white males. It is a harder edge niche just like every genre has it's hard niche. It just does not apply to your theory for the same reason we do not hear the harder niche of other formats.

This current alternative does not have the female-male demographic problem unless the issue is the lack of appeal to minority groups. If that was really a real problem then the NSH country format should not exist here which has a far more demographic problem that Alternative.

 

[mikerock]

I agree. And this is a characteristic ONLY of alternative rock fans. We get far better consensus when speaking with country, pop, or urban fans.

Hard rockers. Alternative rock fans in the 90s and maybe Active rock fans from today. Today's Alternative is more mainstream. Just like some of today's country sounds more like soft rock. Sometimes though some of the country on NSH is more harder edge then what I am hearing on today's alternative stations. You could probably reach females with today's alternative about as well country now a days.

 

[DavidEduardo]

The Active Rock niche does not have as broad appeal and has a more difficult problem unless you are just targeting white males. It is a harder edge niche just like every genre has it's hard niche. It just does not apply to your theory for the same reason we do not hear the harder niche of other formats.

Bringing in part of what reelyreal said previously, there is a declining interest in all forms of rock by teens and Millenials. The evidence is totally clear looking at the 2000 and 2010 versions of the Edison youth trend study available at their website.

Add in the fact that there are polarized clusters within the younger appeal rock partisans, and you have limitations on an alternative. And with the changing demographics of America, there are considerable groups that significant or at least slightly under-index in rock usage.

That said, there are markets where the format will do quite well. But there are others where it will not prosper. And it remains as one of the more vulnerable formats to more specialized and focused streams and to pull-based options.

This current alternative does not have the female-male demographic problem unless the issue is the lack of appeal to minority groups. If that was really a real problem then the NSH country format should not exist here which has a far more demographic problem that Alternative.

Yet, even the best performing Alternative stations like KROQ are 60% male, and newcomers like WRFF are even more male driven and short on females. But perhaps the most daunting challenge the format has is its lower than average power rations at all but the most heritage stations.

 

[mikerock]

Bringing in part of what reelyreal said previously, there is a declining interest in all forms of rock by teens and Millenials. The evidence is totally clear looking at the 2000 and 2010 versions of the Edison youth trend study available at their website.

Add in the fact that there are polarized clusters within the younger appeal rock partisans, and you have limitations on an alternative. And with the changing demographics of America, there are considerable groups that significant or at least slightly under-index in rock usage.

That said, there are markets where the format will do quite well. But there are others where it will not prosper. And it remains as one of the more vulnerable formats to more specialized and focused streams and to pull-based options.



Yet, even the best performing Alternative stations like KROQ are 60% male, and newcomers like WRFF are even more male driven and short on females. But perhaps the most daunting challenge the format has is its lower than average power rations at all but the most heritage stations.

Perhaps that is the reason why the format sounds so different since 2010. If there are less Alternative rocks stations of course they would be selected less.

A more recent study by them last fall indicates that rock listeners are more likely to use online. Well of course if there are not any rock stations or the ones that are available are beating Classic rock to death. Self fulfilling prophecy.

I am surprised to hear WRFF is short on females since it seems geared to females in some respect.

 

[TheBigA]

You could probably reach females with today's alternative about as well country now a days.

The difference being that the country industry has their act together.

As I often say, a big part of music succeeding on the radio has to do with the people behind the music. The artists, labels, managers, and everyone else in country is sooooo accommodating. They really make it hard to think about any other kind of music.

 

[DavidEduardo]

The difference being that the country industry has their act together.

As I often say, a big part of music succeeding on the radio has to do with the people behind the music. The artists, labels, managers, and everyone else in country is sooooo accommodating. They really make it hard to think about any other kind of music.

Yes! While we have numerous rock artists demanding royalties of radio and participating in lobbying efforts, country artists don't miss an opportunity to shout out to radio with words of praise and thanks.

 

[DavidEduardo]

Perhaps that is the reason why the format sounds so different since 2010. If there are less Alternative rocks stations of course they would be selected less.

The Edison study was about tracking the youth market, not about radio. In general, the interest in rock by young consumers has been declining for several decades. And the 2010 study included a follow up with people who were in the youth age rage in 2000, with findings that maturing into the Millenial group and not changed the interest in rock by 2000's teens.

A more recent study by them last fall indicates that rock listeners are more likely to use online. Well of course if there are not any rock stations or the ones that are available are beating Classic rock to death. Self fulfilling prophecy.

Several studies have shown the interest in streaming by Alternative rock listeners has nothing to do with having or not a local Alternative station.

I am surprised to hear WRFF is short on females since it seems geared to females in some respect.

WRFF is around 5th in men, and 10th in women.

 

[Kevin L. Sealy]

It's been said numerous times on the other board that NYC is not a rock town. The New York Metro area can't even support another rock station The last one which used to occupy the 101.9FM frequency failed miserably.






Thanks,
Kevin L. Sealy

 

[Unregistered]

It's been said numerous times on the other board that NYC is not a rock town. The New York Metro area can't even support another rock station The last one which used to occupy the 101.9FM frequency failed miserably.






Thanks,
Kevin L. Sealy

A myth perpetuated by those that have an axe to grind against the genre. The last incarnation of WRXP was simply on auto pilot with no promotion yet it achieved a 3.0 in a matter of 2 months. This had more to do with the selling off assets to raise cash.

All 3 versions of RXP beat WNSH ratings and at times WNOW. If the demographic was women similar to WPLJ we would not be hearing about it being a failure. It seems there is a fear of formats that cater to white males or perhaps reverse discrimination.

 

[chrocket87]

Rock in NYC

A 3.0 in what demo? In its final book, RXP 2.0 had a 2.2 6+, but 10th 18-34 and 14th 25-54. Not bad for a station with no jocks, no promotion, and 4 months to build an audience. RXP did not fail. Merlin needed to sell and CBS wanted somewhere to put WFAN on FM.

I think Alternative could work, but there are no full market signals that need to flip, at least for companies that would ever consider alt-rock. Everyone seems to be making a fair amount of money. The only way I see a return to alt-rock is if WBAI gets sold to Cumulus. And before any more rumors get started on this, this possibility is HIGHLY unlikely anytime soon.

 

[TheBigA]

A myth perpetuated by those that have an axe to grind against the genre.

Ax to grind? You must be joking. No one has an ax to grind. We all know the rock audience is potentially very lucrative. The problem is that it's also very divided and hard to please. For years, WRXP was constantly the object of criticism from rock fans and listeners who each wanted their favorite bands, and nothing else. That's partly what killed music on MTV.

It seems there is a fear of formats that cater to white males or perhaps reverse discrimination.

The real culprits are the record labels. 20 years ago, record labels stopped taking rock acts to radio stations, stopped promoting their music, and focused all their attention on direct marketing to the audience. Far cheaper thing to do, but the end result is that it doesn't build a stable format with stars that get national attention. Record labels realized they can't sell physical copies any more, so their only money is in digital. That means ignoring OTA radio. So that's what they do. They cater their music to narrow niches of young white males, signing lots of acts with small but passionate fan bases who download their music and attend their shows. But because they're so passionate about specific bands, they refuse to sit through anyone else. Because of advertising, OTA radio needs to appeal to a large core audience, and rock can't deliver that, because it's not created that way any more.

 

[JoJoMorales]

Hard to believe that at one point NYC supported 3 rock stations and all had decent ratings. For he first time in a long time there are plenty of new rock acts with wide appeal. It's like the early 1990s all over again. The music is there, the audience is there, but the decision makers aren't in touch enough to see it and won't until it slaps them across the face. New York is a huge market and it's pretty silly to say that there aren't enough partisans to support one current rock station. I've seen RXP 2.0 cited as an example by multiple people on this board and their point is absolutely valid. In its second incarnation caution was thrown to the wind and look what happened? Better ratings than when it was carefully researched and executed the first time around. Too much fragmentation of the genre? Really? If that were true, Top 40 would fail miserably. Corporate Radio doesn't like to put all their eggs into one basket. They feel unsafe turning an NYC stick to a single individual who understands what to do, yet can't qualify it in research. The "art" of programming was the first casualty of consolidation. The trust in a single individual to steer the ship just isn't there. You won't hear another rock station in NYC until the current rock cycle is half-over.

 

[TheBigA]

Corporate Radio doesn't like to put all their eggs into one basket. They feel unsafe turning an NYC stick to a single individual who understands what to do, yet can't qualify it in research. The "art" of programming was the first casualty of consolidation.

Really? Then explain NASH-FM? It's owned by a company that only owns two FMs in NYC, and chose to make one of them country rather than rock. It has NOTHING to do with corporate radio. The LAST rock station in NYC was owned by a corporate radio company. In fact, ALL of the previous rock stations in NYC were owned by major corporate radio companies. The problem isn't radio.

 

[TheBigA]

Too much fragmentation of the genre? Really? If that were true, Top 40 would fail miserably.

Actually CHR is a very solid format with a lot of consensus on what music should get played, and what the audience expects. And most importantly it is far more profitable than rock, regardless of the ratings.

Rather than looking at the ratings, look at the billings for WRXP over the course of its life. It was consistently one of the lowest billing stations in NYC. I'm sure that plays a big part in why no other commercial radio station is considering rock as a format.

 

[Unregistered]

New York Rocks online these days!

Found two NY streams: New York Modern Rock And New York Classic Rock at: www.NewYorkRockRadio.com

In case you had not noticed, even CHRs and Hot ACs in places like Great Falls and Fargo are much more rhythmic and less rock-leaning than ever. Tastes in the whole country have changed over the last decade or so.

And responding to the major partisan groups in any market is not anti-anything. It's just smart programming to appeal to the broadest group possible, and in most markets the different sub-sets of rock can be among the smaller groups.




Besides the fact that your percentage is off, that's nothing new. In fact, you are making the same kind of statement that was often made in the racially-charged era of the late 60's when every other songs was Motown or a Motown wannabee. It's simply taste... and right now, there is lots of very good rhythmic music that has mass appeal.



Liking rhythmic music is not an ethnic issue... it is simply the reality of what kind of music is most appealing today.



There are few first and second generation Italians in New York today. But when there were, we had Fortune Pope's WHOM and WOV programming all or mostly all Italian... WOV even had a "live" studio in Rome!



I did not say that. I said that the market is 25% Hispanic, and it is natural to assume that a proportional number of stations would program to Hispanics either in Spanish or in English with music that has proven Hispanic appeal.

In no way are 40% of the stations in the NYC MSA in Spanish.



Station owners are aware that only about half of all Hispanics are Spanish dominant. That's why there are only 3 ESB FM signals in Spanish and not more.

Like all nationalities (you are confusing "nationality" with "ethnicity") that migrated in large numbers to any place in the US, it takes a couple of generations for interest in "home country" language stations to wane. First generation immigrants in their majority do not become truly bilingual (able to think in both English and the birth tongue) ever; becoming bilingual after reaching adulthood is a mean task. So such people prefer stations that speak their "comfort language" and play the music they grew up on.

But those folks' kids will generally be bilingual, and the grandkids will have moved almost entirely away from the "other" language. In NYC, that's what has happened with the Puerto Rican community... the Spanish dominants are mostly in their 50s and beyond, and the kids and grandkids are native New Yorkers and speak accordingly. Since there has been little Puerto Rican migration to the Northeast since the late 60's, there is no inflow of Spanish dominant Boricuas, either.

 

[Alan Michaels]

It's a sad state for FM with New York Rock. Gone are the days of the greats like WNEW and WPLJ. The Big Apple was home for Rock for so many years. IS everything so urban now really? I found a decent NY website that is at least trying to keep rock alive in NY with a NY Modern rock stream and NY classic rock also at: www.NewYorkRockRadio.com

Bring back Pat St. John, John Lennon is not smiling down at central park.