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ElCheapo
Guest
Just take a look at what their OEM autosound manufacturer has cooked up! ;D
http://www.visteon.com/products/automotive/hdradio.shtml
http://www.visteon.com/products/automotive/hdradio.shtml
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audiophile.
Guest
One of their engineers visits another radio board and said HD AM is worthless!
Visteon (and Ford for that matter) could be out of business anyday now...
Visteon (and Ford for that matter) could be out of business anyday now...
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ElCheapo
Guest
audiophile. said:
Somehow I don't see that. They'll keep building Fords and keep putting radios in them - only now, they'll be HD Radios!
ElCheapo said:audiophile. said:
Somehow I don't see that. They'll keep building Fords and keep putting radios in them - only now, they'll be HD Radios!
All the free service returns from supplying a defective, short range, HD radio system that cuts in and out, will hasten their demise. They'll be sorry.
7
700WLW
Guest
ElCheapo said:audiophile. said:
Somehow I don't see that. They'll keep building Fords and keep putting radios in them - only now, they'll be HD Radios!
There is no annoucement, as to when/if, this is ever going to be put in-dash - once Ford starts putting Sync into their product lines next year, there will be no interest in in-dash HD Radio. Looks like Visteon make in-dash Satellite Radio, too. Good point Supercaster - I wonder, if Ford would have a return policy, on defective in-dash HD Radio units ?
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Mike Walker
Guest
Geez Supercaster, you must be right. After all when the HD signal cuts out, you've got absolutely nothing. YIKES! Nothing but the analog fm stereo system which has hundreds of millions of regular listeners in this country alone! But how dare they try to make the signal better, noise free, with 96db dynamic range, distortion several places beyond the decimal point, and nearly infinite separation. HOW DARE THEY! ;D
When the HD 2 cuts out, you have nothing, as I said.Mike Walker said:
HD Radio is not about improving anything, because it does much more harm then good. HD is about peddling defective, expensive, new HD radios and broadcasting equipment, and jamming adjacent channel neighboring stations.
Your audio quality figures are highly inflated [EDIT]
. The aacPLUS codec that HD Radio uses has artifacts at the bitrates used, that does not permit the kind of audio performance you infer with your HD Radio promotional hype.
Also, the frequent flipping back and forth, between analog and digital has often been reported by HD owners as an annoying problem.
[EDIT] why not acknowledge HD Radio's defects, and try to come up with some creative solutions, instead of constantly posting sarcastic personal criticisms, [EDIT].
[EDIT-inflammatory]
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Mike Walker
Guest
"What HD2 cuts out, you have nothing"????? YOU HAVE THE ANALOG CHANNEL!
HD DOES provide extremely high audio quality over much of the station's signal area, AND additional audio services which wouldn't be otherwise available. That's far from "nothing". In fact, it's quite something!
Long live "the cartel" (Tee Hee!)
HD DOES provide extremely high audio quality over much of the station's signal area, AND additional audio services which wouldn't be otherwise available. That's far from "nothing". In fact, it's quite something!
Long live "the cartel" (Tee Hee!)
7
700WLW
Guest
Mike Walker said:
What wonderful technology, HD Radio !
People don't have a "radio" problem, and don't care about audio quality, which is always subjective ! What a farce - nothing but, promotional hype !
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Mike Walker
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Look up the term "farce" 700 (thankfully you're now spelling it correctly!) It would be a "farce" only if it didn't work as claimed.
What specific claims that are being made for HD doesn't it meet, or exceed? (Coverage is a red herring. NOWHERE does Ibiquity claim that coverage isn't compromised somewhat, in some circumstances in what they consider to be the "initial, rollout hybrid mode").
I spoke with the chief engineer at Clear Channel in Charlotte this morning, to congratulate him on the superb sound quality on WLYT's HD1 channel, complain about the low level on their HD2 channel (it should be fixed within days), and in general "talk hd". He said he expects the power level of hd to be increased before too long, erasing the "big difference" some perceive between analog and digital coverage. By the way, he says their experience is the same as mine...if you can get CLEAN, noise-free analog stereo, you also can get HD.
What specific claims that are being made for HD doesn't it meet, or exceed? (Coverage is a red herring. NOWHERE does Ibiquity claim that coverage isn't compromised somewhat, in some circumstances in what they consider to be the "initial, rollout hybrid mode").
I spoke with the chief engineer at Clear Channel in Charlotte this morning, to congratulate him on the superb sound quality on WLYT's HD1 channel, complain about the low level on their HD2 channel (it should be fixed within days), and in general "talk hd". He said he expects the power level of hd to be increased before too long, erasing the "big difference" some perceive between analog and digital coverage. By the way, he says their experience is the same as mine...if you can get CLEAN, noise-free analog stereo, you also can get HD.
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ElCheapo
Guest
The best part - the other automakers will have no choice but to do the same - especially GM! ;D
7
700WLW
Guest
ElCheapo said:
Not if, there is no demand for HD Radio, which is clearly the case, so far - the new Sync, will force GM to do the same.
audiophile. said:
The reception and audio quality of the recent (and current) receivers in Ford vehicles is VERY GOOD—I’m assuming much of that (in the domestic product) is supplied by Visteon. IF they achieve the reality of entering the HD radio auto market, I’m sure their electronics will be an enhancement over the prior offerings—and a very welcome addition.
BUT... That company is on “life support”... They have lost several major contracts, confessed to a major (and difficult to replace) drop in revenue, and closed (or scaled down) several plants. Originally Visteon was a division of Ford (they began as Philco)... Later Ford spun them off with the lucrative promise of “exclusive future supply contracts”. Interestingly, Visteon’s MAJOR business is mobile air conditioning and engine cooling. These contracts are ending with few and limited replacements. They are figuratively “holding the breath” of my boyhood hometown with their perilous financial condition... And the longtime locals tell me the future looks “bleak”. This IS NOT a business concern that the “HD Cartel” should be depending on for their way-belated final entry into the essential auto reception arena!
Mike Walker said:
Mike, we have seen this “power paradigm” many times before. Broadcasters approach the FCC with a dubious service request... In order to “sneak it by” they beg the opportunity by purposely requesting “limited ERP”—MANY times knowing that it won’t work. Later, they return to the Commission with tears in their eyes (and dollars in the pocket of some Congressman) with a desperate plea for even more power.
The best examples are: The AM PSA, then PSSA, followed by ultimate all-night service on a very congested AM band; the Class D AM nighttime farce; the request to “bump” Class C limits that NOW have managed to reach a whopping 50kw on former 5kw “regional” channels... Talk to the folks at 1290 WHIO Dayton, OH about WHKY (Hickory, NC); and 1300 WLXG Lexington, KY in regards to WNQM (Nashville, TN) who both have managed to “shoehorn” in 50kw limits—EVEN DURING CRITICAL HOURS!
Now I understand that the radio industry found some “weird science” to justify all this, but we know (and have painfully experienced) the results of this mismanagement. Remember the old Imperial Margarine commercial “You Can’t Fool Mother Nature”... And hasn’t the FM band suffered also... Docket 80-90 - THOUSANDS of scam translators to extend religious “fundraising” - creative frequency swaps and their resulting “rim-shots” - “interference agreements” - tricky DAs... AND NOW permitted OFF-CHANNEL HD carriers that will try the same old trick—“beg the FCC for more” because IBOC the BA Receptor don’t work.
This madness MUST cease at some point if we wish for a listenable broadcast service to continue... [EDIT]
[EDIT-inflammatory]
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Mike Walker
Guest
Good points all, hipporadio, but again...I can't be reasoned out of my own observations. And they are that, though surrounded by HD stations in multiple markets, there is no increased interference to analog service. None. Even WNCW Spindale NC (88.7, with HD) causes no interference at my location to WFDD (88.5, without HD). Reception of both is the same as it was before HD existed...acceptable on a good radio with sharp filters, problematic on cheap radios.
I wanted to hate HD. It's a situation where the calculations on paper seem to tell you one thing (that it will cause lots of interference), but practice tells you (me) something completely different. I'll trust my ears over what I read on paper, find in an internet link, or even see on a meter (or scope) any day. What I hear ON FM (again AM HD may well be the spawn of Satan, for all I know) is vastly improved audio quality, more programming choices, and no resulting (AUDIBLE, as opposed to measurable) interference to existing analog service.
I wanted to hate HD. It's a situation where the calculations on paper seem to tell you one thing (that it will cause lots of interference), but practice tells you (me) something completely different. I'll trust my ears over what I read on paper, find in an internet link, or even see on a meter (or scope) any day. What I hear ON FM (again AM HD may well be the spawn of Satan, for all I know) is vastly improved audio quality, more programming choices, and no resulting (AUDIBLE, as opposed to measurable) interference to existing analog service.
7
700WLW
Guest
Mike Walker said:
Study-after-study, and testimonal-after-testimonial, have proven IBOC's interference and poor coverage - the only reason to "push" this defective technology, is if peoples' careers are somehow dependent on HD Radio/IBOC ! Even the Canadian Government has acknowledged that DX'ers claims are valid:
"Digital radio in Canada"
"They also state that due to interference concerns, IBOC transmission at night is not practical... The Commission concurs with the CBC: ...digital IBOC signals will add a certain amount of noise to a station's analog signal, marginally reducing its effective service area and ...IBOC signals can degrade the service areas of technically related stations located in the same or adjacent markets (both of these premises have been presented by DXers in the U.S. and are generally denied by IBOC supporters. It is interesting to see them accepted, on the record, by the Canadian regulatory authorities.)"
http://americanbandscan.blogspot.com/2006/12/digital-radio-in-canada.html
Too bad - looks like AM DXing to Canada will be around, for a while !
Mike Walker said:
Mike... In nearly 250 posts here, you will NOT find ONE where I have attempted to make that charge against the FM HD service given the CURRENT operating and power parameters. I have NEVER detected significant second-adjacent interference from HD carriers on any viable distant station... And remember—FIRST-adjacent doesn’t logically count... It doesn't qualify as a protected LOCAL option... The FCC said so decades before IBOC was born. I spent Thanksgiving in the northern Cincinnati suburbs and went “fishing” for such—and was unable to find any. Nearly every Class B FM in that city is “Cartel-owned” and transmits in HD. Spacing is VERY tight there with numerous communities close-by. There are plenty of “stations between the stations”—and I’m talking about the ‘ole-fashioned ANALOG variety... NONE suffered from “big city IBOC”!
My simple position on FM HD is... Let the market decide based on their needs and satisfaction level. THEY will draw climax to this odyssey—NOT US!
I DIDN’T... Many times earlier in my life, my near-obsession as an “early-adopter” could have earned me a trip to the infamous “$50-per-hour couch”. Recently, I’ve become more content with simple stuff that has earned a reputation for value and dependability. HD FM—despite any alleged benefit—CAN’T serve one single soul who is less-and-less served by the CONTENT on those carriers. I fall into that category—but before anyone here decides to brush my brethren aside as “over the hill” (in the radio biz that equates to turning 35)—consider the more serious problem with the 18-30 gang... Leave HD aside—they are MUCH LESS into "RADIO" PERIOD! CONTENT and AUDIENCE are the issues the industry MUST address—not the claims and confusion over bits and bytes!
It is BOTH—“audible” and “measurable”... and “spawn” to boot (although not the theological variety)
AM IBOC is nearly my only bane in this forum... It needs to face its deserved form of justice from those charged to manage the public resource known as “AM radio”... And speaking of those folks... Come give me a handshake... At post #242 (reply #12 above)—I finally managed to draw an “EDIT-Inflammatory” from the MOD! It was a benign but catchy characterization of how some in the broadcast biz seem to manage the Regulators at the FCC (and I’ve used it here many times before)... I thought it clever and humorous—yet harmless... ‘Guess some skin is getting thin in these here parts hipporadio said:
I wonder if the new, tighter standards will be applied equally, to all?
I wonder if the new, tighter standards will be applied equally, to all?
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Mike Walker
Guest
Hipporadio, if I have mis-characterized your sentiments (and posts), I apologize. I sometimes become confused at who said what. Also, when people talk about "HD interference" I assume they mean FM too, when often it's just the AM system they are complaining about.
I repeat the comment, but direct it generally, rather than at Hipporadio. I can't EVER be reasoned out of an observation made by me, using my equipment (and ears), in my home. If it works as I expect, in my home, then I can't be convinced that it doesn't. In fact, I can post hour after endless hour of material (recorded from my deep-fringe location) proving that it does!
An observation that I make ALWAYS trumps a link posted to someone else's thoughts. But if you must have a link, check out the one of mine in another thread...proving how well HD works (on FM) in deep fringes!
I repeat the comment, but direct it generally, rather than at Hipporadio. I can't EVER be reasoned out of an observation made by me, using my equipment (and ears), in my home. If it works as I expect, in my home, then I can't be convinced that it doesn't. In fact, I can post hour after endless hour of material (recorded from my deep-fringe location) proving that it does!
An observation that I make ALWAYS trumps a link posted to someone else's thoughts. But if you must have a link, check out the one of mine in another thread...proving how well HD works (on FM) in deep fringes!
7
700WLW
Guest
Mike Walker said:
Then, how do you explain away, all the personal testimonials from the "radio geeks", about lousy reception:
"HD Radio Receiver Sensitivity"
http://www.radio-info.com/smf/index.php/topic,51315.0.html
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Mike Walker
Guest
You answer my charge that you have no personal experience (positive or negative) with HD Radio to relate, so you simply parrot links to the comments of others, by posting more links to the comments of others.
I acknowledge that some have had negative experiences. Why do you find it impossible to accept that others have had equally positive experiences...even when I post audio samples proving that HD works, and works even in deep fringe locaions like mine?
I acknowledge that some have had negative experiences. Why do you find it impossible to accept that others have had equally positive experiences...even when I post audio samples proving that HD works, and works even in deep fringe locaions like mine?
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