Does anyone use Aphex Compellor?

[fmcentral371]

What Optimod do you have after the Compellor and the DBX? I assume an 8100a or is it something newer?

Try running the Compellor around 9 o'clock on the process balance settings, it will let more bass through. You can then run the Optimod between 5-10dB of gain reduction with a faster release time. You don't need to bury the AGC on the Optimod if you let the Compellor do the leveling and the Optimod do the compression/limiting/clipping.

Get rid of the DBX, there's no reason to have it in the chain squashing the daylights out of everything.

Actually it's an 8500FM and it is not MY station that uses that chain. I am trying to emulate a station that uses that chain though.

Would the DBX-160 (or 160a) pump when pushed very hard? I guess I'm trying to figure out what makes everything on that station "flat" and not powerful sounding...Dull is a word used above and I would say that is accurate. Nothing pumps or ducks on that station at all.

Thanks.

 

[Jay Walker]

What Optimod do you have after the Compellor and the DBX? I assume an 8100a or is it something newer?

Try running the Compellor around 9 o'clock on the process balance settings, it will let more bass through. You can then run the Optimod between 5-10dB of gain reduction with a faster release time. You don't need to bury the AGC on the Optimod if you let the Compellor do the leveling and the Optimod do the compression/limiting/clipping.

Get rid of the DBX, there's no reason to have it in the chain squashing the daylights out of everything.

Actually it's an 8500FM and it is not MY station that uses that chain. I am trying to emulate a station that uses that chain though.

Would the DBX-160 (or 160a) pump when pushed very hard? I guess I'm trying to figure out what makes everything on that station "flat" and not powerful sounding...Dull is a word used above and I would say that is accurate. Nothing pumps or ducks on that station at all.

Thanks.

The 8500 is a completely different deal. But to attempt to answer your questions, If the UN-processed sound is what you mean by flat, then it is most likely the Classical music setting or 2-Band AGC preset on the 8500. In other words very slow AGC recovery times and heavy gating. This will give the signal a very dynamic sound, major changes between loud and soft music passages and less consistent loudness.

The DBX-160 will make the signal squashed and very busy sounding.

 

[fmcentral371]

What Optimod do you have after the Compellor and the DBX? I assume an 8100a or is it something newer?

Try running the Compellor around 9 o'clock on the process balance settings, it will let more bass through. You can then run the Optimod between 5-10dB of gain reduction with a faster release time. You don't need to bury the AGC on the Optimod if you let the Compellor do the leveling and the Optimod do the compression/limiting/clipping.

Get rid of the DBX, there's no reason to have it in the chain squashing the daylights out of everything.

Actually it's an 8500FM and it is not MY station that uses that chain. I am trying to emulate a station that uses that chain though.

Would the DBX-160 (or 160a) pump when pushed very hard? I guess I'm trying to figure out what makes everything on that station "flat" and not powerful sounding...Dull is a word used above and I would say that is accurate. Nothing pumps or ducks on that station at all.

Thanks.

The 8500 is a completely different deal. But to attempt to answer your questions, If the UN-processed sound is what you mean by flat, then it is most likely the Classical music setting or 2-Band AGC preset on the 8500. In other words very slow AGC recovery times and heavy gating. This will give the signal a very dynamic sound, major changes between loud and soft music passages and less consistent loudness.

The DBX-160 will make the signal squashed and very busy sounding.

Well by "flat" I meant "squashed" (i.e. audibly flat).

So the squashing is more than likely from the DBX 160? The Aphex Compellor even at max would not "squash" the sound?

PS: The DBX 162 produces the same sound as the 160 correct? (except that it accepts a stereo signal).

Thanks.

 

[Jay Walker]

What Optimod do you have after the Compellor and the DBX? I assume an 8100a or is it something newer?

Try running the Compellor around 9 o'clock on the process balance settings, it will let more bass through. You can then run the Optimod between 5-10dB of gain reduction with a faster release time. You don't need to bury the AGC on the Optimod if you let the Compellor do the leveling and the Optimod do the compression/limiting/clipping.

Get rid of the DBX, there's no reason to have it in the chain squashing the daylights out of everything.

Actually it's an 8500FM and it is not MY station that uses that chain. I am trying to emulate a station that uses that chain though.

Would the DBX-160 (or 160a) pump when pushed very hard? I guess I'm trying to figure out what makes everything on that station "flat" and not powerful sounding...Dull is a word used above and I would say that is accurate. Nothing pumps or ducks on that station at all.

Thanks.

The 8500 is a completely different deal. But to attempt to answer your questions, If the UN-processed sound is what you mean by flat, then it is most likely the Classical music setting or 2-Band AGC preset on the 8500. In other words very slow AGC recovery times and heavy gating. This will give the signal a very dynamic sound, major changes between loud and soft music passages and less consistent loudness.

The DBX-160 will make the signal squashed and very busy sounding.

Well by "flat" I meant "squashed" (i.e. audibly flat).

So the squashing is more than likely from the DBX 160? The Aphex Compellor even at max would not "squash" the sound?

PS: The DBX 162 produces the same sound as the 160 correct? (except that it accepts a stereo signal).

Thanks.

If you want the sound "nailed to the wall" then I'd suggest the "Impact" preset on the 8500. The addition of the DBX will really add nothing to the signal but more noise and audible distortion. The 162 is not in my opinion, a broadcast quality compressor. It is more of a high-end home studio box. Using one with the Orban is the equivalent of adding $50 pre-amp on a $10,000 console. Not a good idea at all.

If you are trying to make the modulation monitor look like it is passing a "tone" and you want it to hang at 100 percent all the time, the "Impact" preset is where you start and then increase the clipping on the Optimod using the "More/Less" control. However this will be close to "bleeding ears" quality and I don't recommend the setting unless you are in an incredibly competitive Loudness war, Similar to NYC in the 90's.

 

[Jay Walker]

What Optimod do you have after the Compellor and the DBX? I assume an 8100a or is it something newer?

Try running the Compellor around 9 o'clock on the process balance settings, it will let more bass through. You can then run the Optimod between 5-10dB of gain reduction with a faster release time. You don't need to bury the AGC on the Optimod if you let the Compellor do the leveling and the Optimod do the compression/limiting/clipping.

Get rid of the DBX, there's no reason to have it in the chain squashing the daylights out of everything.

Actually it's an 8500FM and it is not MY station that uses that chain. I am trying to emulate a station that uses that chain though.

Would the DBX-160 (or 160a) pump when pushed very hard? I guess I'm trying to figure out what makes everything on that station "flat" and not powerful sounding...Dull is a word used above and I would say that is accurate. Nothing pumps or ducks on that station at all.

Thanks.

The 8500 is a completely different deal. But to attempt to answer your questions, If the UN-processed sound is what you mean by flat, then it is most likely the Classical music setting or 2-Band AGC preset on the 8500. In other words very slow AGC recovery times and heavy gating. This will give the signal a very dynamic sound, major changes between loud and soft music passages and less consistent loudness.

The DBX-160 will make the signal squashed and very busy sounding.

Well by "flat" I meant "squashed" (i.e. audibly flat).

So the squashing is more than likely from the DBX 160? The Aphex Compellor even at max would not "squash" the sound?

PS: The DBX 162 produces the same sound as the 160 correct? (except that it accepts a stereo signal).

Thanks.

If you want the sound "nailed to the wall" then I'd suggest the "Impact" preset on the 8500. The addition of the DBX will really add nothing to the signal but more noise and audible distortion. The 162 is not in my opinion, a broadcast quality compressor. It is more of a high-end home studio box. Using one with the Orban is the equivalent of adding $50 pre-amp on a $10,000 console. Not a good idea at all.

If you are trying to make the modulation monitor look like it is passing a "tone" and you want it to hang at 100 percent all the time, the "Impact" preset is where you start and then increase the clipping on the Optimod using the "More/Less" control. However this will be close to "bleeding ears" quality and I don't recommend the setting unless you are in an incredibly competitive Loudness war, Similar to NYC in the 90's.

Also I need to add, the setup on the 8500 is critical as well. On the initial setup there is a "headroom setting" where you set the max gain reduction to no more than 10db of gain reduction. This is the master gain platform setting and too often I've seen this adjustment way out of whack. If it is setting is incorrect the gain ranges will not be at optimum and you will not get the maximum potential out of the box. It needs to be set at 10db of gain reduction for the maximum level your board ops send to the processor. This is covered in the user manual as well. The manual is downloadable from the Orban site if needed.

Link: ftp://ftp.orban.com/8500/

 

[WNTIRadio]

Now that I know it's an 8500... get that DBX out of there pronto!!! All it's going to do is mess up your audio.

Secondly, is there a reason that the Compellor is in there? I assume that it's to protect an STL? Otherwise, dump that too if you can.

If not, set the Compellor slower and then also open up window gating in the Optimod AGC so they don't "fight" each other.

There is no reason to put a DBX anything in the chain, especially a capable processor like the 8500. They're made to work with "raw" audio coming in. If you really need an AGC in front of the Optimod, sell the Compellor and the DBX and purchase an Ariane.

 

[Jay Walker]

Now that I know it's an 8500... get that DBX out of there pronto!!! All it's going to do is mess up your audio.

Secondly, is there a reason that the Compellor is in there? I assume that it's to protect an STL? Otherwise, dump that too if you can.

If not, set the Compellor slower and then also open up window gating in the Optimod AGC so they don't "fight" each other.

There is no reason to put a DBX anything in the chain, especially a capable processor like the 8500. They're made to work with "raw" audio coming in. If you really need an AGC in front of the Optimod, sell the Compellor and the DBX and purchase an Ariane.

WNTIRadio
Have you ever tried the Compellor/8500 combo with the W/B AGC disabled in the 8500?
On my current installations music and talk FM I use Compellors to maintain a consistent level to my PPM encoders and to protect the STL. I've not had issues with the AGC's fighting with each other primarily because the Compellor runs slower more as a leveling amp, than the 8500 Wideband. I've never tried it, but I've thought of disabling the W/B in the 8500 my concern is over driving the Orban. Your thoughts??
Thanks

 

[Dale H. Cook]

I like to use them for general leveling in front of the main multi-band compressor/limiter/clipper box

I use them in front of any digital link, including digital STL, T1, fractional T1, and Telco digital program lines.

 

[stephend2]

stream at http://www.vicksburgv105.com is raw audio -> compellor 320a -> stream encoder

http://www.newstalk1490.com is one channel of a compellor 320 (non a) -> stream encoder, other channel of this compellor protects barix encoder to tx site.

 

[WNTIRadio]

I've disabled the WB (actually 2 band, but shows one on the meters) AGC on an 8400 using a Compellor in front of the PPM encoders. Wasn't really pleased with it, though. I usually run them no higher than 9 O'clock on the process balance control... but what I've found with the Optimod, less with the older Omnia gear, is that the 84-8600 is expecting to see split band leveling coming in to the multi-band and the results may be unpredictable at times. The WB AGC in those boxes is the split band core of the 8100a, in essence, with more controls broken out and a window gating function. You have to turn down the drive to the MB section on the Optimod. I haven't experimented with it lately, I can try it out when I'm there again next week with the 8400 that's running that combo right now.

I have disabled the WB AGC and used the Ariane in everything from an 8400 to an 11 with great results. Although I will say that the newest WB AGC in the Omnia 11 is pretty smart, and if you have Livewire you can locate the PPM encoding between the MB AGC and the MB limiter with a patch point. Pretty cool and allows you to ditch a Compellor or other pre-processing. Corny is working on an even better WB AGC for the 11.

Back to Orban, I still like to use the WB AGC just with slower attack/release times and a much larger 4-5dB max, window. The Compellor will give it a good level, and it will do minimal fussing with it other than some slow dynamic EQ. I also keep the WB AGC running only about 6-8dB of G/R max on the 8500, so if the Compellor starts releasing gain and the WB AGC starts releasing gain there isn't an unnatural pump up in levels. Compellor is driven to around 6dB G/R.

 

[Jay Walker]

I've disabled the WB (actually 2 band, but shows one on the meters) AGC on an 8400 using a Compellor in front of the PPM encoders. Wasn't really pleased with it, though. I usually run them no higher than 9 O'clock on the process balance control... but what I've found with the Optimod, less with the older Omnia gear, is that the 84-8600 is expecting to see split band leveling coming in to the multi-band and the results may be unpredictable at times. The WB AGC in those boxes is the split band core of the 8100a, in essence, with more controls broken out and a window gating function. You have to turn down the drive to the MB section on the Optimod. I haven't experimented with it lately, I can try it out when I'm there again next week with the 8400 that's running that combo right now.

I have disabled the WB AGC and used the Ariane in everything from an 8400 to an 11 with great results. Although I will say that the newest WB AGC in the Omnia 11 is pretty smart, and if you have Livewire you can locate the PPM encoding between the MB AGC and the MB limiter with a patch point. Pretty cool and allows you to ditch a Compellor or other pre-processing. Corny is working on an even better WB AGC for the 11.

Back to Orban, I still like to use the WB AGC just with slower attack/release times and a much larger 4-5dB max, window. The Compellor will give it a good level, and it will do minimal fussing with it other than some slow dynamic EQ. I also keep the WB AGC running only about 6-8dB of G/R max on the 8500, so if the Compellor starts releasing gain and the WB AGC starts releasing gain there isn't an unnatural pump up in levels. Compellor is driven to around 6dB G/R.

Thanks for the input. I too use Compellors in front of my 8500 and 11's as well on my FM stereo sports and FM music stations. I've not had issue with them playing nice since the Compellors are ran as leveling amplifiers more than as AGC's. Plus I'm lucky to have operators who maintain good level management.

I enjoy the texture the Compellor provides on my FM Stereo Sports station. Even though I'm using the latest Nx12 Telos phone hybrids, the legendary bad Dallas choke will deliver calls line to line as different as +/- 20db. The Compellor will average out these errors and provide a smooth sound without pumping. With sports play by play (Dallas Cowboys flagship) in stereo the unit at the stadium with the road gear provides a great crowd/sideline audio mix with the talent. The stereo field is maintained and the mix is great.

For the music FM's they will handle the occasional talent ding out without clipping the STL.
All in all a nice combo.
Thanks for the input...

 

[WNTIRadio]

Have you tried an Ariane Sequel in place of the Compellor? Have one in front of an STL with an 11.... very nice combo. It also does double duty and feeds the AM (it's a simulcast) 9200 allowing me to get rid of that WB-AGC. I still leave the WB AGC on with the 11, just open up the window wider than the Ariane and raise the pause threshold. Works well, it's a mainly talk station.

I've used Compellors on their own with bad phone lines with good results too, even out the problem there and don't let it affect the rest of the chain. I have one station where the jocks insist on pegging the microphone even though there's a Compellor > PPM encoders > Omnia.11 in the chain and I tell them it gets leveled out many stages later. Even put in an 8100a for them to monitor in the headphones without delay (used a B-Tools composite decoder). The only issue I have is running the Compellor fast enough for it to recover quickly creates pumping, and slow enough to be a gentle hand on the pot creates that AGC recovery time problem. I'm thinking of driving the 8100 hard enough so that if they run the pot hard it goes into severe distortion... I still need the headroom on the pot for the softer spoken of the crew.

 

[Jay Walker]

Have you tried an Ariane Sequel in place of the Compellor? Have one in front of an STL with an 11.... very nice combo. It also does double duty and feeds the AM (it's a simulcast) 9200 allowing me to get rid of that WB-AGC. I still leave the WB AGC on with the 11, just open up the window wider than the Ariane and raise the pause threshold. Works well, it's a mainly talk station.

I've used Compellors on their own with bad phone lines with good results too, even out the problem there and don't let it affect the rest of the chain. I have one station where the jocks insist on pegging the microphone even though there's a Compellor > PPM encoders > Omnia.11 in the chain and I tell them it gets leveled out many stages later. Even put in an 8100a for them to monitor in the headphones without delay (used a B-Tools composite decoder). The only issue I have is running the Compellor fast enough for it to recover quickly creates pumping, and slow enough to be a gentle hand on the pot creates that AGC recovery time problem. I'm thinking of driving the 8100 hard enough so that if they run the pot hard it goes into severe distortion... I still need the headroom on the pot for the softer spoken of the crew.

No regretfully I never had an Ariane Sequel approved in budget. I had always wanted to try one as I'm intrigued by the multi-band aspect of the AGC/Leveler. The wideband Compellor's only drawback to my ear is the possibility of masking ala the old days of Bass pumping the highs and mids...

I like you have jacked around with processors for close to 40 years ever since I learned why my 45's on my record player didn't have the same sound as the AM radio I heard them on LOL. I called the radio station and ask why? Then discovered the world of compression and limiting, for better or worse.

I built my first AGC from scratch when I was 11 years old. It was a "Feed Forward" AGC loop rather than "Feed Back" and would do some very interesting things when mis-adjusted. Enough of the ramble... Thanks for the tips, I'm always ready to learn more tricks. Let me know if I can return the favor.
I think we are connected on LinkedIn now as well, so I appreciate the hook.

Jay Walker

 

[WNTIRadio]

Ditto. Unless I have an Ariane Sequel, then that goes in front of the digital STL.

The only DBX anything I use on the air is the 286 mic processor. For the money, you can buy 3 of them for the price of 1 Symetrix unit. And I never really liked those Symetrix 528's.

 

[Studio1]

A 320 however can be modified fairly easy...

Could you please detail the mod for the 320? I have one or two of these and if they can be made better, I'm all ears.

 

[richard.vanderveen]

A 320 however can be modified fairly easy...

Could you please detail the mod for the 320? I have one or two of these and if they can be made better, I'm all ears.

Cut circuit at pin 1 of U101 and replace it with a 0.047µF capacitor. You need to do this on both L & R boards.
You won't turn it into a real 320A with this, but it does make a big difference.

 

[satech]

My favorite analog AGC is the CRL SPP-800 Stereo Preparation Processor. They can be found quite cheaply and are an extremely transparent dual-band design. Here is a demo in which you can really hear how well it levels out a very dynamic Billy Joel song:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9x18I8Tntk

 

[WNTIRadio]

Listened to it... I can hear it flattening out transients on the snare hits. Now I remember what the problem I had with the CRL units was, among many.

If you could slow down the attack time it would help out. The Compellors have other drawbacks, but they don't squash the transients when set up properly.

The true test for any AGC pumping is playing either Bette Davis Eyes or the Fugees version of Killing Me Softly.

 

[fmcentral371]

Listened to it... I can hear it flattening out transients on the snare hits. Now I remember what the problem I had with the CRL units was, among many.

If you could slow down the attack time it would help out. The Compellors have other drawbacks, but they don't squash the transients when set up properly.

The true test for any AGC pumping is playing either Bette Davis Eyes or the Fugees version of Killing Me Softly.

Yes "Killing Me Softly" is a great test song. I can't wait to see how the Compellor does on that track.

 

[Jay Walker]

Listened to it... I can hear it flattening out transients on the snare hits. Now I remember what the problem I had with the CRL units was, among many.

If you could slow down the attack time it would help out. The Compellors have other drawbacks, but they don't squash the transients when set up properly.

The true test for any AGC pumping is playing either Bette Davis Eyes or the Fugees version of Killing Me Softly.

Yes "Killing Me Softly" is a great test song. I can't wait to see how the Compellor does on that track.

Bette Davis Eyes was the one I used to set up my early tri-band lashups of Urei LA-4s and the crossover networks. (one each for lows, mids, and highs in parallel)

An other good test tune for checking dynamic "reach" and range before "squash and flattening" out is the bridge in Boston's "Don't Look Back" during the open bridge before the guitar crescendo.

The center kick drum with the airy stereo panning guitar let you check for pumping/masking and the crescendo let you set max gain reduction before "squash and flattening out".

We could do another thread on processing test songs alone :

Jay Walker