Could VHF 2 through 6 become analog-only?

[JeeperOne]

The Digital Voice modes (DMR, D-Srar. C4FM, etc) & Hotspots used for them will change that

Plus, there's the ISS which has a Ham station on board (Callsign W5ISS) & there are various Ham Satellites orbiting the Earth using spectrum in ways you don't even realize on the ground unless you're a Ham

It's been almost twenty-five years since D-Star, close to that for DMR. At least ten for C4FM. None of that has increased the use of ham bands. If anything, there's less activity.

Little Hotspots running on nothing but Raspberry Pi's hadn't been invented yet & until recently depended on repeaters (Also a transmitter) with some kind of hardline connection to the Internet where they connect to master servers than run the reflector they're on

Those little Hotspots create DOZENS of micro-repeaters operating on seperate frequencies & bands rather than just one repeater on one set of frequencies atop a building, hilltop or in someone's backyard. As such, the need to maintain repeaters for regular use has been rendered nearly moot (Although I'm sure some clubs & Hams take the same approach CBS did when it decided to maintain the Empire State Building transmitter site as a backup for WCBS 2 & its radio stations ;pmg after everyone else moved to the original World Trade Center (A decision which of course CBS & New Yorkers everywhere would be thankful for in the wake of the September 11th Terrorist Attacks)

That's great. They don't need more spectrum to make one contact in orbit.

You must not be a Ham Kelly. Otherwise you would know that Ham Satellites REQUIRE more spectrum than a ground-based repeater does to allow for things like Doppler Shifting (Something which ground-based repeaters (Analog or Digital) don't do)

 

[MarioMania]

To little to late, not going to happen

Besides, Who's going to watch it?

There were talk about Ch.5/6 for FM, That never happened

 

[Nathan Obral]

Stop believing everything you read on Wikipedia and contact the station to ask them

...at least, not the articles @Sammi Brie and I haven't worked on yet.

(I had to)

 

[IM42A]

You're not thinking in reality. Public or private broadcasters can't survive if nobody is watching. Advertisers won't advertise if nobody is there watching, or if they don't know you exist. Donors won't donate if nobody knows or cares whether a station exists. LPTV isn't the same as LPFM. It's lower power than most full-class TV stations, but some can operate as high as 20kW ERP. Many LD stations are also commercial, unlike LPFM.

Consumers don't purchase new radios anymore. That's been the case for decades. 'If you build it, someone will find you', is a complete fallacy.

As I said, "highest and best use". What would that be? If it's a white elephant as far as commercial uses are concerned, then maybe do as someone noted above, and convert it to amateur radio use? Maybe some kind of public utility? Yet another citizens' band or family two-way radio service? (But what kind of market is there for that anymore, when everyone has smartphones?)

I don't know. Spectrum is by its nature a scarce resource. Seems a shame to waste it. Maybe the highest and best use is to allocate it to whatever digital broadcasters want to have a go at it, and use it that way? Use it pretty much solely to allow low-rent or otherwise unpopular broadcasters to invoke must-carry? Low-powered DTV translators to serve isolated communities? When people can't get OTA TV any other way, anything's better than nothing.

 

[IM42A]

Because they haven’t upgraded to digital yet. There are a fair amount of stations in Canada that are in smaller areas that weren’t required to upgrade at a specific point. A fair amount of them are CTV affiliates. Some are privately owned (not by the network). So you see CTV in some areas that aren’t digital yet.

FWIW, Sault Ste Marie is a fairly substantial little town, the Ontario and Michigan sides together have a population approaching 100K.

Just for the heck of it, what are some other Canadian markets that aren't all-digital yet?

 

[PTBoardOp93]

I firmly believe 54-88 MHz should remain as a broadcast band. If the government wishes to allocate some portion to an expanded FM band, I'm OK with that, or I'm OK leaving it as a TV band.

But I agree with Kelly: any additional FM broadcasters below 88MHz would languish for lack of receivers for a long time, if not permanently. I don't think there's a great deal of market demand for such allocations.

For any business, it is going to be cheaper and more reliable to piggyback on the existing 4G/5G mobile data infrastructure, instead of building your own VHF infrastructure. So reallocating to some other non-broadcast use is a non-starter, until such time as another user emerges.

Just for the heck of it, what are some other Canadian markets that aren't all-digital yet?

CTV Atlantic has multiple analog rebroadcasts in Nova Scotia. I confirmed this by listening to CJCH-TV-6 on a car radio at 87.7 when I was there in 2023.

 

[Mr Tony]

FWIW, Sault Ste Marie is a fairly substantial little town, the Ontario and Michigan sides together have a population approaching 100K.

Just for the heck of it, what are some other Canadian markets that aren't all-digital yet?

They aren’t considered markets, more so one town areas
Kamloops, price George, terrace, Dawson creek, prince rupert, bc
Sudbury, on
Medicine Hat, ab
Yorktown, Prince Albert, sk
Brandon, mb

 

[Kelly A]

As I said, "highest and best use". What would that be? If it's a white elephant as far as commercial uses are concerned, then maybe do as someone noted above, and convert it to amateur radio use? Maybe some kind of public utility? Yet another citizens' band or family two-way radio service? (But what kind of market is there for that anymore, when everyone has smartphones?)

What difference does it make if a tiny portion of the naturally occurring electromagnetic spectrum just isn't utilized by humans? It's not like fossil fuels that are pumped out of the ground without an endless supply. Just like naturally occurring frequencies of light, the electromagnetic spectrum has been around since the dawn of time. What rule is it that we need to occupy all of it continuously?

I don't know. Spectrum is by its nature a scarce resource. Seems a shame to waste it.

Why, just because? Human broadcast and communications only add to an already noisy planetary radio spectrum. Maybe letting some of it lay fallow is a more reasonable approach?

Maybe the highest and best use is to allocate it to whatever digital broadcasters want to have a go at it, and use it that way? Use it pretty much solely to allow low-rent or otherwise unpopular broadcasters to invoke must-carry?

How has that idea worked so far for LPFM? And again, why would someone set up shop and broadcast on a band or range of frequencies where there are no listeners? Doesn't matter if they're commercial or not, they need money from somewhere to build and support these broadcasts.

Low-powered DTV translators to serve isolated communities?

Honestly, other than Northern parts of Alaska, how many truly isolated communities are there left in the United States where there isn't a larger community within reception range or via streaming? And as I mentioned; what you're describing is LPTV, or LD stations.
Having owned rural radio stations myself, you can't run radio or TV in any form on goodwill and happy thoughts alone.

 

[Kelly A]

You must not be a Ham Kelly. Otherwise you would know that Ham Satellites REQUIRE more spectrum than a ground-based repeater does to allow for things like Doppler Shifting (Something which ground-based repeaters (Analog or Digital) don't do)

I am and I understand how communicating with the ISS works because I've done it twice. Once from an HT on my sofa.
Ham's simply don't use the spectrum they have now. Hoarding it just because it could be used does nobody any good.
You can go anywhere in the country and find hundreds of 2M, 220, 440, and 6M repeaters other than their ID sitting silent for days and weeks. I have a home near Washington D.C. and help take care of eight of the probably forty repeaters in the vicinity of the national capital. Even with linked D-Star, Wires-X, DMR, and Echolink, other than occasional weekly nets, these repeaters are usually silent for days at a time.
So, from a practical standpoint; Hams needing more spectrum is a false argument. They don't use what they already have.

 

[tvnut]

This isn't as crazy as it may sound. Stay with me on this.

I was reading about CHBX-TV in Sault Ste Marie, Ontario, which according to its Wikipedia article remains analog and on VHF channel 2. I don't know if they have moved to digital (VHF 13) and the article just hasn't been updated, but assuming they remain analog, might it be a feasible plan to dedicate VHF channels 2 through 6 in the US and Canada to analog-only, possibly for independent and other broadcasters who aren't affiliated with a major network, and migrate what few low-VHF digital broadcasters there are (including CHBX) onto high-VHF or UHF channels?

Low-VHF is supposedly plagued with problems that makes it an undesirable medium for DTV, while at the same time being perfectly suited for analog, and easier reception at greater distances at that. Moreover --- someone correct me if I'm wrong --- these frequencies would be useless for commercial telecommunications purposes such as smartphones, data, and so on. So they are of little use to anyone except TV broadcasters who wouldn't mind offering an analog signal. Most DTV receivers are also capable of receiving analog as channel x.0.

And, of course, it would make for great DX, though I realize that is of no interest to anyone except hobbyists.

Thoughts from the forum?

I’m watching the satellite feed of CHBX and it’s definitely HD. Maybe that’s a separate feed but no sign of leftover analog on the bird.

 

[Don CT]

In a word - No

Why??

1). NextGen TV will render the need for Analog TV moot (And regular HDTV had already pretty much done that already)

2). Smart TVs manufactured today aren't designed with Analog in mind (Besides, who would want to watch some Analog TV station broadcasting in 16:9 Widescreen in ANY resolution (That would be somewhere around 480p (??) @ 25 fps)?? Not me. Twitch streamers stream at higher quality than that

Why can't you have analog 1080P? It will never happen but is it not possible?

 

[KeithE4]

Why can't you have analog 1080P? It will never happen but is it not possible?

The video bandwidth of a 1080x1920 picture at 30 frames per second is about 31 MHz, as opposed to the 4 MHz video of a standard NTSC signal.

 

[Lester_the_NightFly]

In a word - No

Why??

1). NextGen TV will render the need for Analog TV moot (And regular HDTV had already pretty much done that already)

2). Smart TVs manufactured today aren't designed with Analog in mind (Besides, who would want to watch some Analog TV station broadcasting in 16:9 Widescreen in ANY resolution (That would be somewhere around 480p (??) @ 25 fps)?? Not me. Twitch streamers stream at higher quality than that)

3). A myriad of other services from Ham Radio (Of which I am very familiar with ) to FM Radio broadcasters & Part 15 Microcasters are all hoping & vying to get a piece of this precious spectrum. Plus remember the audio portion IS NOT the only portion up for grabs. The video portion is as well (And some of that was shared with broadcast TV by these same other services now vying to keep what they've had to themselves since 2009 TO themselves)

That;s why

If the OTA broadcasters don't drop DRM, NextGen TV will become the Next AM Stereo.

 

[IM42A]

What difference does it make if a tiny portion of the naturally occurring electromagnetic spectrum just isn't utilized by humans? It's not like fossil fuels that are pumped out of the ground without an endless supply. Just like naturally occurring frequencies of light, the electromagnetic spectrum has been around since the dawn of time. What rule is it that we need to occupy all of it continuously?

There really isn't. You could be right. It could be that 54-88 mHz is fairly useless for anything except an expanded FM band that, as you rightly point out, would be reliant upon manufacturing and purchasing all new radios, not worth it. I was just "wondering out loud" to the effect of "hey, we've got this big 34 mHz (actually 30 mHz, they didn't use 72-76 mHz, I know you know this, but that is why you could have a channel 4 and a channel 5 in the same city in analog days) slice of spectrum that isn't really suitable for TV use anymore, it's a shame not to use it, what could it be used for instead?". The answer may be "nothing, really". I just know, among other things, that under ideal terrestrial conditions, a channel 2 or 3 could get out 100 miles without working up a sweat. Digital poses problems for those frequencies that analog doesn't.

 

[Mediafrog+]

Why can't you have analog 1080P? It will never happen but is it not possible?

The video bandwidth of a 1080x1920 picture at 30 frames per second is about 31 MHz, as opposed to the 4 MHz video of a standard NTSC signal.

The old French 819 line analog standard that was used decades ago required channels that were 14 MHz wide…and that was for a system that was black & white only.

819 line - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Mediafrog+]

There really isn't. You could be right. It could be that 54-88 mHz is fairly useless for anything except an expanded FM band

In Ireland, a bunch of little-used or abandoned low-band VHF spectrum has been re-allocated to amateur radio, including frequencies used for channels 2, 3 and 4 in the Western Hemisphere.

I just know, among other things, that under ideal terrestrial conditions, a channel 2 or 3 could get out 100 miles without working up a sweat. Digital poses problems for those frequencies that analog doesn't.

Low band VHF can get out quite well with simple voice communication. Hams using the 6 meter band (50-54 MHz) are able to make contacts over thousands of miles when the band is “open”.

 

[Kelly A]

Low band VHF can get out quite well with simple voice communication. Hams using the 6 meter band (50-54 MHz) are able to make contacts over thousands of miles when the band is “open”.

Yes, and the 6M band is as quiet as most amateur bands. Anymore with the ability to communicate around the world using your smartphone, doing it via radio is too much trouble.

 

[Don CT]

Yes, and the 6M band is as quiet as most amateur bands. Anymore with the ability to communicate around the world using your smartphone, doing it via radio is too much trouble.

I hear plenty of old hams complaning that nobody picks up the hobby. The reason is the older crowd complaining about it. It's like an old boys club that they don't want others to enter. So the format dies off.

I hear all the time about, when everything else fails. Ya and if we are that bad the radio signals are screwed too.

 

[Kelly A]

I hear plenty of old hams complaning that nobody picks up the hobby. The reason is the older crowd complaining about it. It's like an old boys club that they don't want others to enter. So the format dies off.

The irony is, that there was something like half a million new Ham's registered last year. Right here in my neighborhood, there are something like 300 licensed hams, but not many active ones. QST, the magazine of the Amateur Radio Relay League frequently spotlights an occasional female, but they're usually the daughter or granddaughter of a ham . There just isn't much outreach to women or people of color, because it's so easy now to communicate with other people around the world. I guess that stands to reason though, as most active hams are older white males who have been in the hobby for decades. That's why I maintain there's no need to hand over more spectrum to a hobby who's members are a dying breed and not using the spectrum they already have access to.

I hear all the time about, when everything else fails. Ya and if we are that bad the radio signals are screwed too.

There have been examples in the past where amateur radio has been used in natural and man-made disasters. Usually in lesser-developed isolated countries or island nations.

 

[Mikey Radio]

I hear plenty of old hams complaning that nobody picks up the hobby. The reason is the older crowd complaining about it. It's like an old boys club that they don't want others to enter. So the format dies off.

Not only that, but it can be an expensive and time consuming hobby who's time (aside from maybe the good it does in times of emergency or natural disasters which are generally few and far between) has passed in favor of other forms of communication, and few younger people have an interest in it.

Even going back 35 years, I had a base station CB rig that I used almost daily as we had a few local CB clubs that were quite active and lots of my school mates had mobile units in their vehicles and a few had bases. It was relatively inexpensive to get a solid base station with sideband (if you wanted that) and an antenna, and there was no license required. I did have some interest in getting into ham radio, but the equipment was a lot more expensive at least at the time, there was the licensing involved, and the local ham club that I visited was full of guys who seemed nice enough and were supportive, but they were all in their 60s or older so no one even close to my age at the time, many had, well, eccentricities, and they referred to each other not by name even when sitting in a room together, but by call sign. By that time internet and home computers were widely available, people were moving off CB and amateur radio and into chat rooms and websites, the internet made the world a smaller place and my (and a lot of others') interest in ham waned.