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Commercial programming on non-commercial stations and vice-versa
- Thread starter tomservo
- Start date
I have a really burning question to ask about this: I am sort of new to NPR and Non Commercial Radio talk here:
Can a non profit station I will use as an example, KUT 90.5 if they had a second FM say on 98.9 be non profit from 6am to midnight, and the same frequency be a commercial station from midnight to 6am in some sort of Local Marketing Agreement?
Can a non profit station I will use as an example, KUT 90.5 if they had a second FM say on 98.9 be non profit from 6am to midnight, and the same frequency be a commercial station from midnight to 6am in some sort of Local Marketing Agreement?
A commercial licensee can operate as a non-commercial licensee at any time (e.g. by soliciting donations instead of airing ads). The reverse is not true.
There are some exceptions in the eyes of the FCC - there are a number of rules advantages that the FCC grants a true non-commercial licensee but not a commercial operator who happens to solicit donations.
Examples of such stations: WFMT/Chicago, WBAI/New York
There are some exceptions in the eyes of the FCC - there are a number of rules advantages that the FCC grants a true non-commercial licensee but not a commercial operator who happens to solicit donations.
Examples of such stations: WFMT/Chicago, WBAI/New York
willdav713 said:
A station holds either a commercial license (which allows it to sell airtime) or a non-commercial license. (which doesn't allow it to sell airtime) A single license must be one or the other -- must be either commercial all the time, or non-commercial all the time.
- A station holding a commercial license *may* sell airtime. It isn't *required* to sell airtime. I suppose 98.9 could choose not to sell any time between 6am and midnight. However, as PTBoardOp94 says, there are some advantages to holding a non-commercial license. Having a commercial license & choosing to not sell airtime isn't the same thing.
- It is possible for two stations to share the same frequency. There are two different licenses. For example, commercial station KUTA might broadcast on 98.9 between 6am and midnight, while non-commercial KUTB uses the frequency between midnight and 6am. Indeed, this happened on two frequencies in Kansas: commercial station WIBW, Topeka shared the 580 AM frequency with a non-commercial station in Manhattan; and commercial station WREN shared 1250 AM with a non-commercial station in Lawrence.
(in both cases, the commercial stations ended up buying out the non-commercial operations; both frequencies are now commercial 24/7)
- There is nothing to prevent the same organization from owning both commercial and non-commercial stations. For example, Chicago's public TV station WTTW owns commercial FM station WFMT.
- Don't confuse "non-profit" and "non-commercial". My understanding is that it's legal for a non-profit corporation to own a commercial broadcasting station, as long as any profits from the commercial station are plowed back into the operation of the non-profit organization. Indeed, it's my understanding that's what's going on in Chicago: the profits from the operation of WFMT help finance the operation of non-commercial WTTW.
w9wi said:
What about this example, suppose KXBT sells it's station to UT, and they change the calls to KUTX airing the music portion of KUT 90.5, and KUT 90.5 becomes News/Talk, the New KUTX 98.9 plays all the Music fare of that the KUT station would have played, and if they keep it a Commercial FM license and not a Non Commercial license, they could choose to not sell air-time, but do "underwriting" during 6 AM to midnight, and keep the True Oldies Channel satellite feed on with commercials, and PSAs and the income received from that goes to the University? Could such a scenario be possible?
It can be done legally from an FCC perspective but it's more complicated with the IRS.
First of all, donations to the commercial radio station might not be tax-deductible under that scenario. I say "might" as I'm not a tax attorney so I'm not really sure.
Second, and this I am more sure of, there are all sorts of UBIT issues for non-profits that own commercial enterprises. Granted, there are ways to deal with that, but it must be handled appropriately. I don't know the specifics but I remember talking to one of the business office people who dealt with the college's IRS filings and she told me that if I ever ran afoul of UBIT with the college's radio station that she'd kill me because it would triple her workload. Take that for whatever it's worth. ;D
First of all, donations to the commercial radio station might not be tax-deductible under that scenario. I say "might" as I'm not a tax attorney so I'm not really sure.
Second, and this I am more sure of, there are all sorts of UBIT issues for non-profits that own commercial enterprises. Granted, there are ways to deal with that, but it must be handled appropriately. I don't know the specifics but I remember talking to one of the business office people who dealt with the college's IRS filings and she told me that if I ever ran afoul of UBIT with the college's radio station that she'd kill me because it would triple her workload. Take that for whatever it's worth. ;D
WJMJ 88.9 Hartford, CT which plays EZ Listening Music, Lite Oldies, and Religious programming airs ABC News at the top of each hour. The only time they didn't air ABC News at the top of the hour was on 9/11/01. They basically ignored the tragedy, while another non-commercial religious station WIHS 104.9 out of Middletown, CT ran continuous coverage from SRN.
I don't know whether WMIT Black Mountain, NC (Billy Graham's station) was non-commercial at the time (they are now) but I recall ABC News and Paul Harvey's "The Rest of the Story".
Going the other way, I used to listen to a show called "Jazzology" because my favorite station ran it at the time I took trash to the dump. Now my town provides pickup, and that station is Spanish, though I think a co-owned station has it now and I just never remember to listen. But there are no commercial breaks, which leads me to wonder if it is for non-commercial stations as well. The owner of those two stations I mentioned is the host, though, and I've heard it on one of his other stations which went country and then Spanish. But the sound quality is very poor, and NPR stations sound so professional.
Going the other way, I used to listen to a show called "Jazzology" because my favorite station ran it at the time I took trash to the dump. Now my town provides pickup, and that station is Spanish, though I think a co-owned station has it now and I just never remember to listen. But there are no commercial breaks, which leads me to wonder if it is for non-commercial stations as well. The owner of those two stations I mentioned is the host, though, and I've heard it on one of his other stations which went country and then Spanish. But the sound quality is very poor, and NPR stations sound so professional.
For several years an NPR station around here aired the games of the college where it is located.aaronread said:
A commercial station where I live has aired the Met broadcasts. I don't know if they still do. It's Christian now, but I don't remember what the former format was.Mark Jeffries said:
About that KUT/KUTX example, another issue I'd forgotten to mention is that NPR requires affiliate stations to operate in a non-commercial manner. I'm not entirely sure how that works if KUT elects to NOT run any NPR content on KUTX, though. Technically the licensee is the same for both so the rules for being NPR affiliate must apply to both, but from a practical perspective it seems odd that NPR could realistically force KUT to do anything in regards to KUTX if no NPR programming is airing on KUTX. After all, with all the stations based at SUNY colleges in New York, SUNY is the owner; not the individual campuses (a decision made at the central SUNY office that is a royal pain in all the individual stations' asses). Yet not all SUNY-owned licenses are NPR affiliates and certainly NPR doesn't dictate what happens at, for example, WBSU at SUNY Brockport, which is a typical "college radio" station. (and a very well-run one, I might add)
Yes, the station I used to run...WEOS...still does air Hobart football and lacrosse games. They are quite unpopular with the NPR listeners but the college demands it and they're the licensee so, that's how it is. FWIW, it's also a lot easier for a NCE station to air athletics coverage from their own parent college as legally it's all under the same owner, whereas airing athletics from other entities gets into all kinds of problems...especially if the team owner is a for-profit entity.
Yes, the station I used to run...WEOS...still does air Hobart football and lacrosse games. They are quite unpopular with the NPR listeners but the college demands it and they're the licensee so, that's how it is. FWIW, it's also a lot easier for a NCE station to air athletics coverage from their own parent college as legally it's all under the same owner, whereas airing athletics from other entities gets into all kinds of problems...especially if the team owner is a for-profit entity.
aaronread said:
KUT is currently airing "World Cafe" every weeknight and I assume that the show would move to KUTX when the split occurs. (They also air "Undercurrents," but that's not an NPR show.) That show and "Undercurrents" were the subjects of anger from longtime listeners when their appearance concurred with two longtime DJs being cut back in hours (and losing their health insurance from the station), but the newer news-talk audience doesn't seem to mind those shows. (One of the DJs "retired" but started doing his trademark programs for an LPFM in nearby Dripping Springs--and Rolling Stone already did those jokes about the town's name years ago.)
And if you're wondering why there was a sudden interest in all this, the station that KUTX will be replacing is an oldies (not classic hits) format--and anyone who has been around these boards knows that along with active and/or modern rock, oldies seems to be the favorite format of so many people on these boards and one that the imminent departure seems to bring much concern.
We had World Cafe on WEOS. It had a definite audience but the crossover from the news/talk to the WC audience was minuscule. Our Arbitrons would show huge tune in/tune out at as we went from On Point to World Cafe, and then World Cafe to Fresh Air. Neither audience stuck around for the other show.
Obviously one station does not a trend make, and Austin is mighty different from Ithaca (albeit with some surprising parallels), but I suspect the news-talk audience doesn't mind because they're not listening at all when the music shows are on.
WLEZ-LP in Jackson, MS, used to air ABC/Citadel's "Timeless" format when they were still on their old 103.7 frequency and before the network dropped the true standards and became basically a soft classic hits format. They'd fill in the spot breaks with their own music. I believe they are all local now.
I'm not sure if they're non-comms, but there are two college/university-owned stations that I know of that air Dial Global's "America's Best Music" feed - Jones' College WJAX in Jacksonville, FL, and Quinnipiac University's WQUN in Hamden, CT. I know WJAX was non-comm when they were a locally originating nostalgia/big band station.
I also have memories of Detroit's commercial classical station WQRS airing Minnesota Public Radio's "Saint Paul Sunday" on Sunday mornings, though I could be wrong about that.
I'm not sure if they're non-comms, but there are two college/university-owned stations that I know of that air Dial Global's "America's Best Music" feed - Jones' College WJAX in Jacksonville, FL, and Quinnipiac University's WQUN in Hamden, CT. I know WJAX was non-comm when they were a locally originating nostalgia/big band station.
I also have memories of Detroit's commercial classical station WQRS airing Minnesota Public Radio's "Saint Paul Sunday" on Sunday mornings, though I could be wrong about that.
Also - and I don't know how this slipped my mind when I posted my original reply - in the '70s and '80s there were a number of college- or high-school radio stations that aired Casey Kasem's "American Top 40." KSDB in Manhattan, KS, is one such example that was mentioned on a rerun of AT40 from 1987 which aired just last month. In Michigan, AT40 aired on WCHP, which was a closed-circuit student station at Central Michigan University in Mount Pleasant throughout the '70s and '80s. I'm not sure if there are any non-comm stations that air Ryan Seacrest's AT40 today.
Also, "Acoustic Cafe" formerly ran on WSDP, a high-school station in Plymouth, a suburb of Detroit. Their main format was alternative rock at that time. It no longer airs since the station switched to an adult contemporary format about a year or so ago.
Also, "Acoustic Cafe" formerly ran on WSDP, a high-school station in Plymouth, a suburb of Detroit. Their main format was alternative rock at that time. It no longer airs since the station switched to an adult contemporary format about a year or so ago.
Simply Beautiful 91.3 out in Killeen is also a great station, they play a lot of Easy Listening favorites and it is run by a college out there. They also air sports.
I wouldn't mind if UT simulcasts 91.3 if this 98.9 KUTX will flop, and it will just a matter of time since most people listen to KUT's News/Talk than it's music format.
I'll place my wager on 1 year to be exact.
In 2014 expect another flip for 98.9.
The 8-Ball says "Sign's Point to Yes"
I wouldn't mind if UT simulcasts 91.3 if this 98.9 KUTX will flop, and it will just a matter of time since most people listen to KUT's News/Talk than it's music format.
I'll place my wager on 1 year to be exact.
In 2014 expect another flip for 98.9.
The 8-Ball says "Sign's Point to Yes"
This is going to horrify some of you. However, while I appreciate NPR and BBC, as well as other networks, commercial and non-commercial, I wonder if the time has come to drop the requirement that stations in the 88-92 mhz band be non-commercial, that non-commercial status should be an option, in television as well as radio, and that LPFM stations should be allowed to sell commercial time, which reasonably could provide a medium for "mom and pop" small businesses that would not be able to afford larger, wider-coverage media.
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