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Classic Rock & The River

A

acheron1982

The River calls itself Classic Hits. Nobody calls it true classic hits but I have a hard time calling it true classic rock. I was reading an article that came out today about the legendary KSHE 95 out of St. Louis. For those of you who are not familiar, this is one of the longest running rock stations in the country and where KSHE stands out from all the rest is it's diversity of classic rock. A range from the late 60s to the 90s. Hit based and deep cuts. Prog Rock still has a home where Emerson Lake & Palmer, Electric Light Orchestra and early Yes tracks are still played along side the standard classic rock hits that every classic rock stations plays. A quick review of their last played list doesn't do you justice - You have to review it multiple times a day. Could be playing an album from cover to cover on Sunday nights. They could be playing hair bands for an entire hour. Sunday mornings include classic KSHE airchecks and deep classic rock cuts and artists that you rarely hear anymore on standard classic rock turn and burn stations. KSHE is even not afraid to introduce you to a few newer bands though that is very rare. I recall one evening listening to the new Breaking Benjamin album Return and Dark Before Dawn which got a lot of reaction on their facebook page.

Where am I going with this? Well I dare anyone not to admit that The River is nothing more than a safe small and narrow classic rock/hits hybrid station. They do respectable in the ratings but then again, what other choice does baby boomers have that don't get into country music. KSHE was owned by Emmis and recently was bought out by Hubbard. Maybe someone can point at something for me but I honestly can tell no direction in change the station has taken since it's new owners joined in. With the recent Star concerns, would Entercom be making a smart move by going the more diverse classic rock track to punch out The River? I know, Rock 100.5 was basically classic rock but again, they were safe. True, a bit harder but instead of playing Suttons of Swing every time you turned around, it was the standard AC/DC typically played at your country rock bars out in Cumming.

Would a classic rocker on 94/1 that covered a larger swath of classic rock and dug deep work in Atlanta? HD2 is taking off as well so a classic hits stations that covers the more lighter side of the 60s to 90s.

The River is boring to me but then again, it ain't broke and I won't deny that.
Star does appear to be broke (all be it I love the imaging and I do see improvement) as it walks all over B985 and 99.7 still trying to find out what she wants to be when she grows up.
 
acheron1982 said:
The River calls itself Classic Hits. Nobody calls it true classic hits but I have a hard time calling it true classic rock. I was reading an article that came out today about the legendary KSHE 95 out of St. Louis. For those of you who are not familiar, this is one of the longest running rock stations in the country and where KSHE stands out from all the rest is it's diversity of classic rock. A range from the late 60s to the 90s. Hit based and deep cuts. Prog Rock still has a home where Emerson Lake & Palmer, Electric Light Orchestra and early Yes tracks are still played along side the standard classic rock hits that every classic rock stations plays. A quick review of their last played list doesn't do you justice - You have to review it multiple times a day. Could be playing an album from cover to cover on Sunday nights. They could be playing hair bands for an entire hour. Sunday mornings include classic KSHE airchecks and deep classic rock cuts and artists that you rarely hear anymore on standard classic rock turn and burn stations. KSHE is even not afraid to introduce you to a few newer bands though that is very rare. I recall one evening listening to the new Breaking Benjamin album Return and Dark Before Dawn which got a lot of reaction on their facebook page.

Where am I going with this? Well I dare anyone not to admit that The River is nothing more than a safe small and narrow classic rock/hits hybrid station. They do respectable in the ratings but then again, what other choice does baby boomers have that don't get into country music. KSHE was owned by Emmis and recently was bought out by Hubbard. Maybe someone can point at something for me but I honestly can tell no direction in change the station has taken since it's new owners joined in. With the recent Star concerns, would Entercom be making a smart move by going the more diverse classic rock track to punch out The River? I know, Rock 100.5 was basically classic rock but again, they were safe. True, a bit harder but instead of playing Suttons of Swing every time you turned around, it was the standard AC/DC typically played at your country rock bars out in Cumming.

Would a classic rocker on 94/1 that covered a larger swath of classic rock and dug deep work in Atlanta? HD2 is taking off as well so a classic hits stations that covers the more lighter side of the 60s to 90s.

The River is boring to me but then again, it ain't broke and I won't deny that.
Star does appear to be broke (all be it I love the imaging and I do see improvement) as it walks all over B985 and 99.7 still trying to find out what she wants to be when she grows up.
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The old 94Q days need to come back, we have more than enough people in this mega market to make the ratings skyrocket.. Call it 941 Stars of the past,,,so sick of the **** in this market and yes the River is a cluster **** boring format, but it shows that people want to hear more of what you said.
 
TheBigA said:
Except they're all over 60. Only ads you'd hear would be for drugs and funeral homes. How uplifting.
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Right, I am in the best shape of my life, and have more money than your (Moderator had edited offensive term)...Sick of the pre pubescent PD 's that shoot blanks.
 
BIGSTICK said:
Right, I am in the best shape of my life, and have more money than your ass.
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And advertisers don't care. They only want to sell you drugs and reverse mortgages. And you HATE commercials.

You want to hear 70s Top 40? Spend some of your money on Sirius.
 
BIGSTICK said:
Right, I am in the best shape of my life, and have more money than your (Moderator had edited offensive term)...Sick of the pre pubescent PD 's that shoot blanks.
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However, advertisers, particularly in large markets where much of the business is with local and national ad agencies, essentially never buy local radio for audiences over 55.

The condensed version of the logic is that the older a person gets, the less responsive they are to advertising due to established brand preferences and loyalties, skepticism and inertia. So, to make a sale, it takes more ad repetition and thus the cost per sale becomes greater than the profit.

There are exceptions, but they are rare enough to conclude that a significant radio station in a significant market could not make money appealing to over-55 listeners exclusively.
 
DavidEduardo said:


However, advertisers, particularly in large markets where much of the business is with local and national ad agencies, essentially never buy local radio for audiences over 55.

The condensed version of the logic is that the older a person gets, the less responsive they are to advertising due to established brand preferences and loyalties, skepticism and inertia. So, to make a sale, it takes more ad repetition and thus the cost per sale becomes greater than the profit.

There are exceptions, but they are rare enough to conclude that a significant radio station in a significant market could not make money appealing to over-55 listeners exclusively.
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Whatever you say King Dave. I just bought a Ferrari 812 at 358k,,,
 
He's just stating facts. Agencies wouldn't buy a 55+ audience even if you gave them a winning lottery ticket as a bonus. It has nothing to do with program directors or salespeople. Buying the 55+ market is about like trying to get your grandfather to listen to the entire Ozzy Osborn discography and enjoy every second of it. So, since radio needs money to operate and that money primarily comes through advertising, if you owned a station would your program it so virtually every possible client would not spend a dime or would you cater to the market the radio advertiser wants to buy.

BIGSTICK, I'm not sure what you think of radio but here's a rude awakening. The program director does not set the target audience. The guy that signs your paycheck says I hired you to get me "X" audience. You do if you want to keep your job. I've been PD at a number of stations and none of them were my personal cup of tea.
 
b-turner said:
He's just stating facts. Agencies wouldn't buy a 55+ audience even if you gave them a winning lottery ticket as a bonus. It has nothing to do with program directors or salespeople. Buying the 55+ market is about like trying to get your grandfather to listen to the entire Ozzy Osborn discography and enjoy every second of it. So, since radio needs money to operate and that money primarily comes through advertising, if you owned a station would your program it so virtually every possible client would not spend a dime or would you cater to the market the radio advertiser wants to buy.

BIGSTICK, I'm not sure what you think of radio but here's a rude awakening. The program director does not set the target audience. The guy that signs your paycheck says I hired you to get me "X" audience. You do if you want to keep your job. I've been PD at a number of stations and none of them were my personal cup of tea.
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Fair enough...
 
BIGSTICK said:
I do have Pandora, etc, but it is just an embarrassment on what Atlanta RADIO has become.
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How much do you pay for Pandora Mr. Rich Boy? FYI Pandora is now owned by Sirius. You could make a deal to get both together. But it would cost you a few bucks.
 
BIGSTICK said:
I do have Pandora, etc, but it is just an embarrassment on what Atlanta RADIO has become.
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But you are not in commercial terrestrial radio's target audience, so there is no expectation that you would like anything at all because commercial stations don't program for your taste or those of your generation.
 
acheron1982 said:
They do respectable in the ratings but then again, what other choice does baby boomers have that don't get into country music.
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This sentence is the crux of the whole issue.

This is the year that all baby boomers are now at or over 55.

They are no longer a target audience for commercial terrestrial radio.

No significant station with a good signal is going to try to appeal to boomers.
 
“More Diverse Classic Rock” is how I best describe the comparison between a KSHE which probably has a playlist over 500 songs and that doesn’t include the specialities that ranges from the deep prog rock of the 70s to the grunge of the 90s to that of The River which I would dare say has 200 playlist set which consists of top hits and no specialty shows. I remember The River use to do specialty stuff on weekends which would force them into deeper cuts and classic rock artists that are rarely played such as Jethro Tull, Deep Purple, early Yes, something from Rush other than Tom Sawyer.

I get the argument about 55 plus but I think this would tap into the 40 and early 50s folks as well. I’m 37 and have a Uriah Heep T-shirt. No, I’m not suggesting make it part of the regular playlist but a wild card every few hours, rather it be an artist you don’t hear much of like Head East or maybe a deeper cut from REO Speedwagon like live take of Golden Country which no, wasn’t one of their 80s ballads that made them who they are but it wasn’t a b-side song that never made the charts either. I guess something than your typical 200 hits played over and over. I think there is room for a for Whee in the Sky by Journey and also Fire on High by Electric Light Orchestra.
 
acheron1982 said:
“More Diverse Classic Rock” is how I best describe the comparison between a KSHE which probably has a playlist over 500 songs and that doesn’t include the specialities that ranges from the deep prog rock of the 70s to the grunge of the 90s to that of The River which I would dare say has 200 playlist set which consists of top hits and no specialty shows. I remember The River use to do specialty stuff on weekends which would force them into deeper cuts and classic rock artists that are rarely played such as Jethro Tull, Deep Purple, early Yes, something from Rush other than Tom Sawyer.
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The average classic rock station has somewhere in the 500-600 title library range, and SHE is likely above that.
 
acheron1982 said:
I get the argument about 55 plus but I think this would tap into the 40 and early 50s folks as well. I’m 37 and have a Uriah Heep T-shirt.
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Classic rock typically gets better 25-54 numbers than classic hits. One way classic hits stations lower their average age is by playing more rock. That's what's happening in Atlanta. My sense is the River is eating up the space that might be taken by a classic rocker, which is why it's so successful. By playing some classic rock and some classic hits, it's a more diverse format.
 
Atlanta hasn't had a deep-cut classic rocker since Z93 flipped to AAA Dave FM (and now 92.9 The Game). Z93's been gone over 15 years, although they had a respectable run as classic rock. I don't know if there's a market for that anymore. 96 Rock got out of that business in the late 80s when they started playing new rock again and quit with the Psychedelic Psaturday, Psunday, and Psupper.

River has trended harder over the years (but not much), and Rock100.5 ceded a lot of the classic rock space to them as they've emphasized more contemporary AOR (including alt and active).
 
acheron1982 said:
“More Diverse Classic Rock” is how I best describe the comparison between a KSHE which probably has a playlist over 500 songs and that doesn’t include the specialities that ranges from the deep prog rock of the 70s to the grunge of the 90s to that of The River which I would dare say has 200 playlist set which consists of top hits and no specialty shows. I remember The River use to do specialty stuff on weekends which would force them into deeper cuts and classic rock artists that are rarely played such as Jethro Tull, Deep Purple, early Yes, something from Rush other than Tom Sawyer.

I get the argument about 55 plus but I think this would tap into the 40 and early 50s folks as well. I’m 37 and have a Uriah Heep T-shirt. No, I’m not suggesting make it part of the regular playlist but a wild card every few hours, rather it be an artist you don’t hear much of like Head East or maybe a deeper cut from REO Speedwagon like live take of Golden Country which no, wasn’t one of their 80s ballads that made them who they are but it wasn’t a b-side song that never made the charts either. I guess something than your typical 200 hits played over and over. I think there is room for a for Whee in the Sky by Journey and also Fire on High by Electric Light Orchestra.
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I just looked in Mediabase (I have a login). Last week River played 399 songs in regular rotation (2 or more spins) and KSHE played 410 songs 2 or more times. So your "perception" of the KSHE library is much larger than it actually is - and your perception of the River library is much smaller. There's only an 11-song difference. KSHE played more specialty / one-off songs (songs spun 1x per week), but they're a heritage rock station who have been in format for decades, they can get away with more of that. River has been in format for maybe 15 years and doesn't have that same image with the audience. Heritage classic rockers have more room to go deep, newer stations do not.

Looking at November 6+ - KSHE was #1 with a 9.8 and KLOU was right behind it with a 7.3, that's a 17 share for classic rock / hits in St. Louis, a market that's demographically VERY different from Atlanta. River was 5th with a 5.8 and Rock 100.5 was 17th with a 2.3. That's 8.1 shares going to classic rock / rock in Atlanta. There isn't the same appeal for the music here that there is in St. Louis, so I'm guessing River can't get away with being as deep. I know the station is consistently #1 with men and top 3 with adults, so something is working.
 
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