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City of License Question

S

strangelove

Guest
Maybe this is pretty elementary but here it goes:

Why is it that stations such at Hot 105, Magic and Mega are licensed to Coral Gables, Pompano Beach and Miami Beach respectively when their signals effectively cover Broward, Miami-Dade and a good portion of Palm Beach counties? Why are they not licensed to Miami or Fort Lauderdale like many of the other FM stations Broward and Miami-Dade?
 
That's a very good question. It all goes back to the original public interest question. The FCC considers it to be in the public interest for as many local communities as possible to have its own local voice or radio signal whether that be an AM, FM, or NCE-FM radio station. In the case of the stations you have mentioned, each of these stations are class C FMs which allows a signal up to 100kw with an antenna of 1,968 feet. Miami, Fort Lauderdale and West Palm Beach each have their own respective FM frequencies assigned and licensed.

Likewise some of the nearby smaller communities also have at least one FM station assigend and licensed as a matter of serving the public interest for each respective community such as Carol Gables, Pompano Beach, Boca Raton and the like. Because each of these communities have one FM station licensed as a class C operating at full authorized power levels, they are able to also provide a primiary or city grade signal into Miami and Fort Lauderdale.

From a purlely business standpoint, there are more radio advertising dollars in Miami than there are in Coral Gables or Pompano Beach, so the licensee has chosen to target Miami as an advertising base. This is legal so long as, for example, WHQT Coral Gables provides a primary signal over Coral Gables, the actual city of license. The fact that WHQT also places a primairy signal over Miami is considered a bonus for the licensee. For this reason, again using WHQT as an example, WHQT is operated and marketed as a Miami FM station although it is licensed to Coral Gables.

There are many examples of these "Move-Ins" around the state of Florida and the U.S. I hope this helps to better explain why certain stations are licensed to various communities the way they are currently licensed.

Mark Tillery
J. M. Tillery & Associates, P. A.
Online: www.jmtillery.com
Blog: http://jmtillery.blogspot.com
Email: [email protected]
 
strangelove said:
Maybe this is pretty elementary but here it goes:

Why is it that stations such at Hot 105, Magic and Mega are licensed to Coral Gables, Pompano Beach and Miami Beach respectively when their signals effectively cover Broward, Miami-Dade and a good portion of Palm Beach counties? Why are they not licensed to Miami or Fort Lauderdale like many of the other FM stations Broward and Miami-Dade?

Mr. Tillery summed it up pretty well.

The original plan was for these towns to have their own community radio stations. Back in the 50's-70's, many of these "COL in name only" stations actually broadcasted semi-local signals (A good example is 101.9 and 104.1 in Orlando. Both were class C stations but focused primarily on the area near the COL...NOT Orlando).

Until the 70's, most of these class C's had not built out their license completely...either running low wattage up high or more likely running 100kW from 300-500'. By the time the 80's moved around and FCC rules were relaxed, these stations were seen by non-local owners as cash cows: For a couple of million upgrading equipment and getting a taller tower it could become a major force in a market.

Radio-X
 
radiodxrichmond said:
Until the 70's, most of these class C's had not built out their license completely...running low wattage...from 300-500'.
By the time the 80's moved around...these stations were seen by non-local owners as cash cows.
Radio-X

And I might add that these FM stations, so as not to draw too much money from their successful co-owned AM stations, more often than not, had their antennae side mounted atop one of the AM sticks. Not the most desirable spot from a signal-covering perspective, but free.
 
jmtillery said:
There are many examples of these "Move-Ins" around the state of Florida and the U.S. I hope this helps to better explain why certain stations are licensed to various communities the way they are currently licensed.

Great example of "move-ins" in different areas:

WAWZ 99.1, Zarapath, NJ. bill themselves as "Star 99.1, New York". (definately one of those stations targeted for takeover by the big boys. When the station goes on the market will be one of the most pricey of all time)

WHPT, Sa-ra-so-ta! uses its 1,667' 100kw to blanket the Tampa metro market.

My favorite is WSJT, Holmes Beach or its sister, WLLD, Lakeland. Neither station cares about its COL.

Sa-ra-so-ta! and Lakeland are considered different radio markets from Tampa-St. Pete-Clearwater in Arbitron.

WHQT's Coral Gables is at least next to Miami.

Sa-ra-so-ta! is 50 miles from Tampa.

Channel 62 WVEA is licenced for Venice, Fl. with their transmitter in Riverview. Venice is 20 miles further south than Sa-ra-so-ta! and 54 air miles between COL and transmitter.

Jeff in Sa-ra-so-ta!
 
badjef said:
Great example of "move-ins" in different areas:

WAWZ 99.1, Zarapath, NJ. bill themselves as "Star 99.1, New York". (definately one of those stations targeted for takeover by the big boys. When the station goes on the market will be one of the most pricey of all time)

That's not a move-in. It's just a use of the current ID requirements. It's been in Zarepath forever, and can't move anywhere without short-spacing consequences. If it were to sell, it would be priced as a less than full market signal, perhaps in the $30 million zone (compare to the roughly $45 million plus 105.9 "trade in" Univision paid for WQXR, a full ESB signal.

WHPT, Sa-ra-so-ta! uses its 1,667' 100kw to blanket the Tampa metro market.

That's not a move in either, it is just a superior facility that also covers an adjacent market.

Sa-ra-so-ta! and Lakeland are considered different radio markets from Tampa-St. Pete-Clearwater in Arbitron.

Sarasota is part of the Tampa DMA for TV. I believe, prior to PPM, Polk County was not in the metro but in the TSA for both Tampa and Orlando... but don't have the old market definitions here.

WHQT's Coral Gables is at least next to Miami.

The radio market is Miami-Dade and Broward Counties, and any station licensed to either is home to the market. Except for the street signs changing color, there is no way to tell when you leave Miami or Coconut Grove or South Miami and enter the Gables.

Sa-ra-so-ta! is 50 miles from Tampa.

But it is in the DMA.

Marketers don't really care about how little suburbs were incorporated. The issue is more related to things like commuting, buying, etc.
 
Better examples might be 99.9's moving from Palatka to downtown Jacksonville (actually, the station had decent rimshot signals into both Jacksonville and Orlando before downgrading to make that move) and from Boca Raton to County Line Rd, 102.7 moving to CLR the same night that 92.1 moved to 92.3 (no more I.F. issue in Miami), and we think it was 99.5 that moved from Clewiston to downtown WPB. If memory serves us, 99.5 was in eastern Martin County many years ago, before moving to Clewiston. Some of these stations changed COL's.
 
radiodxrichmond said:
The original plan was for these towns to have their own community radio stations. Back in the 50's-70's, many of these "COL in name only" stations actually broadcasted semi-local signals (A good example is 101.9 and 104.1 in Orlando. Both were class C stations but focused primarily on the area near the COL...NOT Orlando).

And these are two stations that have their city of license as Cocoa Beach, Florida, which is an entirely different market: Melbourne-Titusville-Cocoa, over 50 miles away on the space coast.

badjef said:
Great example of "move-ins" in different areas:

WAWZ 99.1, Zarapath, NJ. bill themselves as "Star 99.1, New York". (definately one of those stations targeted for takeover by the big boys. When the station goes on the market will be one of the most pricey of all time)

Just looked at the signal. It barely covers New York City. If the locals are mad about WWOR not covering its COL, this should be a prime candidate.

badjef said:
WHPT, Sa-ra-so-ta! uses its 1,667' 100kw to blanket the Tampa metro market.

Another out-of-marketer. At least this one covers Tampa pretty well, but many other local stations serve Sarasota-Bradenton first.

badjef said:
My favorite is WSJT, Holmes Beach or its sister, WLLD, Lakeland. Neither station cares about its COL.

Maybe they should take a tip from WPCV. It serves Lakeland-Winter Haven, and always pulls double digit shares. Sometimes up to 15. Then again when you look at WLLD's ratings in Tampa, they're probably thinking the grass IS greener in the other market.

Here's one of my favorites. Here in Los Angeles, we do have some San Bernardino-Riverside stations that try to skew towards Los Angeles, but way way down south there's 690 AM, XEWW (formerly XETRA). Yes, with an X, meaning Mexico. Several stations licensed to Tijuana serve its neighbor in San Diego and succeed, but this one has decided to go alllll the way up and serve Los Angeles, over 130 MILES AWAY! It has attempted this for years under a few formats, including the old Xtra Sports format that housed Jim Rome. That format is now on KLAC, which is now Fox Sports Radio. http://www.wradio690.com
 
livingfruitvirus said:
Here's one of my favorites. Here in Los Angeles, we do have some San Bernardino-Riverside stations that try to skew towards Los Angeles, but way way down south there's 690 AM, XEWW (formerly XETRA). Yes, with an X, meaning Mexico. Several stations licensed to Tijuana serve its neighbor in San Diego and succeed, but this one has decided to go alllll the way up and serve Los Angeles, over 130 MILES AWAY! It has attempted this for years under a few formats, including the old Xtra Sports format that housed Jim Rome.

But XETRA is technically a rimshot, not a move-in. A move-in is a station that relocates its transmitter or upgrades with no other intent than to serve a larger market somewhere near the old community of license,whether that is changed or not.

A rimshot is a facility licensed outside the MSA but which delivers a signal of some kind that makes ownership think they can reposition as a participant in the market with more money on the table.

XETRA began life under those calls about 50 years ago as "Extra News over Los Angeles" and actually got some rathings in the market. In that era, noise levels were much lower, and the station was indeed listenable, as were, over the next two to three decades, XEGM 950 and XEPRS 1090 all of which served LA primarily with studios in the LA metro... classic rimshot behaviour.

I would not consider the TIjuana stations rimshots, since, were it not for the border, those FMs would be deeply in the metro and are, in several cases, better facilities than the US FMs.

The only IE station that plays for the LA market is KLYY, and it has elected to be considered as home to LA, and "below the line" for the IE ratings... a choice Arbitron offers.
 
DavidEduardo said:
badjef said:
Great example of "move-ins" in different areas:

WAWZ 99.1, Zarapath, NJ. bill themselves as "Star 99.1, New York". (definately one of those stations targeted for takeover by the big boys. When the station goes on the market will be one of the most pricey of all time)

That's not a move-in. It's just a use of the current ID requirements. It's been in Zarepath forever, and can't move anywhere without short-spacing consequences. If it were to sell, it would be priced as a less than full market signal, perhaps in the $30 million zone (compare to the roughly $45 million plus 105.9 "trade in" Univision paid for WQXR, a full ESB signal.
Ok, if it is not a move-in, then it would have to be a rimshot?
If I were to understand the definitions, these would have to be one or the other since they are full powered signals trying to cover an area with a less than city-grade signal to the are they are trying to market.

Remember gambling is only a problem when you lose. With that in mind I'd be willing to accept a bet on that one - as far as what it will eventually sell for.
96.3 is the best signal from ESB as a result of everybody else being more short-spaced. I was fortunate enough to be listening up there when they changed on October 8th, 2009. It was the end of an era to be sure.
WHPT, Sa-ra-so-ta! uses its 1,667' 100kw to blanket the Tampa metro market.

That's not a move in either, it is just a superior facility that also covers an adjacent market.
So, that would be a rimshot?
Sa-ra-so-ta! and Lakeland are considered different radio markets from Tampa-St. Pete-Clearwater in Arbitron.

Sarasota is part of the Tampa DMA for TV. I believe, prior to PPM, Polk County was not in the metro but in the TSA for both Tampa and Orlando... but don't have the old market definitions here.
They are considered different markets for the Arb.
Clear Channel-Tampa doesn’t care about Sa-ra-so-ta!/Bradenton. They have their own cluster here.
WHQT's Coral Gables is at least next to Miami.

The radio market is Miami-Dade and Broward Counties, and any station licensed to either is home to the market. Except for the street signs changing color, there is no way to tell when you leave Miami or Coconut Grove or South Miami and enter the Gables.
I never stated that WHQT was a rimshot or move-in. I was giving an example of why it wasn’t either one. Sorry if I wasn’t clear. To me, that is definitely a metro station.
Sa-ra-so-ta! is 50 miles from Tampa.

But it is in the DMA.

Marketers don't really care about how little suburbs were incorporated. The issue is more related to things like commuting, buying, etc.
Then, I guess your definitions include the line in “The Book”.

Ok, then as far as WVEA, Venice and their transmitter in Riverview, why doesn't that count?

Jeff in Sa-ra-so-ta!
 
WHPT-FM 102.5 Sarasota is a definate move-in since the studios were moved to Saint Petersburg and the taller tower was erected for the sole purpose of targeting the Bay area. This occured when Susquehanna Broadcasting paired 102.5 with AM 570 Pinellas Park (Tampa) in the late 1980s. WHPT is not targeting Sarasota, and although the tower is located just slightly East of its city of license (Sarasota), that site was chosen in order to avoid a short-spacing with WTRS-FM 102.3 Dunnellon (Ocala). Othwerwise, Susquehanna most likley would have erected the tower someplace near WFUS' tower in order to provide a more even coverage over Tampa Bay. However, with its current 1,650 (HAAT) tower and 100kw signal, WHPT provides a complete city grade signal over all of Metro Tampa Bay (Tampa - Saint Petersburg - Clearwater) but fades towards North Tampa Bay which would be the New Port Richey/Holiday area.
 
jmtillery said:
WHPT-FM 102.5 Sarasota is a definate move-in since the studios were moved to Saint Petersburg and the taller tower was erected for the sole purpose of targeting the Bay area. This occured when Susquehanna Broadcasting paired 102.5 with AM 570 Pinellas Park (Tampa) in the late 1980s. WHPT is not targeting Sarasota, and although the tower is located just slightly East of its city of license (Sarasota), that site was chosen in order to avoid a short-spacing with WTRS-FM 102.3 Dunnellon (Ocala). Othwerwise, Susquehanna most likley would have erected the tower someplace near WFUS' tower in order to provide a more even coverage over Tampa Bay. However, with its current 1,650 (HAAT) tower and 100kw signal, WHPT provides a complete city grade signal over all of Metro Tampa Bay (Tampa - Saint Petersburg - Clearwater) but fades towards North Tampa Bay which would be the New Port Richey/Holiday area.
At that time, the calls were WHVE (102.5 The Wave) and WTKN, as a talk station.

The new tower was being promoted online as 1,667 feet. What the official height is, I'm not sure. When you get to those numbers, changing meters to feet induces too many errors for me to argue 27 feet.

It is certainly impressive since it is still over 200 feet higher than Empire's aircraft warning light in an area that has 30 foot barns and 5 foot cows. :)

And a GREAT place to see a nighttime shuttle launch.

Oh, yeah, Mark, I am happily back in Sa-ra-so-ta! after my 6 month hiatus. ;)

Jeff in Sa-ra-so-ta!
 
badjef said:
DavidEduardo said:
badjef said:
Ok, if it is not a move-in, then it would have to be a rimshot?
If I were to understand the definitions, these would have to be one or the other since they are full powered signals trying to cover an area with a less than city-grade signal to the are they are trying to market.

Neither. WAWZ is just a lesser signal inside an MSA. A rimshot is generally understood to be a station licensed outside the metro "looking in" from as close to the population center of the metro in discussion as possible. As long as the station has a community of license outside the MSA, it's a rimshot (and the term is more an FM one, as that is where the bouncing transmitter methods of creating a rimshot started).

Remember gambling is only a problem when you lose. With that in mind I'd be willing to accept a bet on that one - as far as what it will eventually sell for.

Well, given the economy (I know of one FM in a top market that went for an allocated $400 million in a multistation buy that was sold for $137 million just prior to the recession (03/08) and another that sold for $250 million that was being negotiated for at $72 million. WAWZ, with poor MSA coverage, is worth, maybe, $30 to $40 (with $40 being a steep price for a deficient uncompetitive signal)

That's not a move in either, it is just a superior facility that also covers an adjacent market.
So, that would be a rimshot?

Yes, it is still licensed to a location outside the MSA (but inside the old TSA). But in every other way it behaves like a rimshot.
They are considered different markets for the Arb.[/quote]

Not really... this is yes and no at the same time. Sarasota is in the Tampa TSA... but the PPM has no TSA, yet, due to only partial peripheral market conversions to PPM nationally.


Ok, then as far as WVEA, Venice and their transmitter in Riverview, why doesn't that count?

Keep in mind that Arbitron metros change, with as many as 50 or so markets adding or shedding counties each revision. The basis is the 50/15 rule, which involves a calculation of Census data on commuting and actual listening to stations home to the MSA.
 
DavidEduardo said:
badjef said:
DavidEduardo said:
badjef said:
Ok, if it is not a move-in, then it would have to be a rimshot?
If I were to understand the definitions, these would have to be one or the other since they are full powered signals trying to cover an area with a less than city-grade signal to the are they are trying to market.

Neither. WAWZ is just a lesser signal inside an MSA. A rimshot is generally understood to be a station licensed outside the metro "looking in" from as close to the population center of the metro in discussion as possible. As long as the station has a community of license outside the MSA, it's a rimshot (and the term is more an FM one, as that is where the bouncing transmitter methods of creating a rimshot started).

Remember gambling is only a problem when you lose. With that in mind I'd be willing to accept a bet on that one - as far as what it will eventually sell for.

Well, given the economy (I know of one FM in a top market that went for an allocated $400 million in a multistation buy that was sold for $137 million just prior to the recession (03/08) and another that sold for $250 million that was being negotiated for at $72 million. WAWZ, with poor MSA coverage, is worth, maybe, $30 to $40 (with $40 being a steep price for a deficient uncompetitive signal)

That's not a move in either, it is just a superior facility that also covers an adjacent market.
So, that would be a rimshot?

Yes, it is still licensed to a location outside the MSA (but inside the old TSA). But in every other way it behaves like a rimshot.

They are considered different markets for the Arb.

Not really... this is yes and no at the same time. Sarasota is in the Tampa TSA... but the PPM has no TSA, yet, due to only partial peripheral market conversions to PPM nationally.


Ok, then as far as WVEA, Venice and their transmitter in Riverview, why doesn't that count?

Keep in mind that Arbitron metros change, with as many as 50 or so markets adding or shedding counties each revision. The basis is the 50/15 rule, which involves a calculation of Census data on commuting and actual listening to stations home to the MSA.
Ok, David, since you don’t think that WAWZ is any big deal, are you doing the “death watch” for Harold Camping for WFME – the next shoe to drop.

And, can that station still move to Empire and retain its "B" status protection?

Personally, I think both stations are a gold mine in New Jersey. And both have great signals – for the DC-NYC corridor.

WAWZ cuts right into the most densely populated parts of the state.

Jeff in Sa-ra-so-ta!
 
There was a time when these stations were actually physically located *in* their respective COLs. 94.9 wasn't on Gannett/American Tower in N. Dade, it was actually *on* the Deauville Hotel in Miami Beach.

Same for 2 other Gannett FMs.....WHQT (nee WVCG-FM/WYOR) was 160kw with a stick I believe on SW 67 Ave. and Bird Rd, just outside of the Coral Gables city limits. WMXJ's stick was on the WRBD/1470 array on Rock Island Road in....Pompano.

But this was all long ago in a place called the 1960s and 1970s, when the stations actually more closely served their COLs, and FMs weren't "big bad" competitive signals like they are now.
 
radiosanchez said:
There was a time when these stations were actually physically located *in* their respective COLs. 94.9 wasn't on Gannett/American Tower in N. Dade, it was actually *on* the Deauville Hotel in Miami Beach.

Same for 2 other Gannett FMs.....WHQT (nee WVCG-FM/WYOR) was 160kw with a stick I believe on SW 67 Ave. and Bird Rd, just outside of the Coral Gables city limits. WMXJ's stick was on the WRBD/1470 array on Rock Island Road in....Pompano.

But this was all long ago in a place called the 1960s and 1970s, when the stations actually more closely served their COLs, and FMs weren't "big bad" competitive signals like they are now.

This is a bit of the chicken and the egg conundrum. Back when FMs were mostly on the towers of co-owned AMs (WWOK and WJOK were another example with 107.5 on 1260's center tower in Sweetwater) or on top of office buildings or hotels, it was because that was a cheap way to broadcast. FM had little or no revenue, so low cost was the key issue.

As soon as FM started producing revenue, it was possible to upgrade the facility because there was more money to build out to the maximum height and coverage; that often meant moving the transmitter to a place where a big stick was allowed. In Miami, even before the Gannet tower, the area just north of that location filled with towers, from the Crider tower to the Hollywood side (in the trailer park) to the TV towers. Of course, these towers were not close to the Community of License, but the built out facility actually put a better signal over the COL than the inferior facility.

So I would say that the stations that had less than maximum facilties were not serving the community they were licensed to serve because the class of service, a C in this case, was created to serve a broad area... something they were not doing.

Of course, the Rocking Big Daddy sign near Pompany was a real landmark back then. I remember when WYOR moved from the Gables to One Biscayne, and when WQBA FM mved out of Sweetwater, too. And how we worried that the Y 100 antenna on the Crowder stick would come down on top of the tornado magnets in a hurricane.
 
And yet, WJHR was on a TV tower as far back as I can remember.
Storer was into big signals on both bands.
 
To answer the original question, the strange cities of license for some stations are a combination of history and the FCC living in a fantasy world.

History - As some have stated, stations usually had smaller coverage years ago, before they upgraded. It should also be noted that the rules were devised mostly from 1917 to 1934, when the concept of suburbs was virtually unknown. Most people lived in the cities where they worked (except for a few very close-in places just outside of some city limits but on the streetcar routes), where their families lived, and where they had always lived. There were no expressways, even for those who did have cars. Local telephone calling areas were smaller, and long-distance was expensive. If you lived in Miami and had a cousin in Ft. Lauderdale, he was an out-of-town relative whom you wrote to instead of calling, and saw on special occasions. Today you would have each other on cellular speed-dial with unlimited calling and get together anytime.

Back then, it was not too far-fetched to imagine that each town needed its own "voice", and that a Ft. Lauderdale station differed from a Pompano Beach station, from a Miami Station.

Fantasy - Regulators seem to think the world still works that way. I suspect that the public appetite for Coral Gables specific programming is rather limited even in Coral Gables, since people mostly consider themselves part of the Miami region, rather than strictly "locals" in one town. In the eyes of the FCC, WMXJ (102.7) exists for the purpose of serving Pompano Beach -- in the real world we know that the station, like the community itself is simply a part of South Florida. Despite the obvious silliness of this approach, there have been few signs of recognition that people live in Metro areas today, rather than towns.
 
samb15 said:
To answer the original question, the strange cities of license for some stations are a combination of history and the FCC living in a fantasy world.

History - As some have stated, stations usually had smaller coverage years ago, before they upgraded. It should also be noted that the rules were devised mostly from 1917 to 1934, when the concept of suburbs was virtually unknown. Most people lived in the cities where they worked (except for a few very close-in places just outside of some city limits but on the streetcar routes), where their families lived, and where they had always lived. There were no expressways, even for those who did have cars. Local telephone calling areas were smaller, and long-distance was expensive. If you lived in Miami and had a cousin in Ft. Lauderdale, he was an out-of-town relative whom you wrote to instead of calling, and saw on special occasions. Today you would have each other on cellular speed-dial with unlimited calling and get together anytime.

Back then, it was not too far-fetched to imagine that each town needed its own "voice", and that a Ft. Lauderdale station differed from a Pompano Beach station, from a Miami Station.

Fantasy - Regulators seem to think the world still works that way. I suspect that the public appetite for Coral Gables specific programming is rather limited even in Coral Gables, since people mostly consider themselves part of the Miami region, rather than strictly "locals" in one town. In the eyes of the FCC, WMXJ (102.7) exists for the purpose of serving Pompano Beach -- in the real world we know that the station, like the community itself is simply a part of South Florida. Despite the obvious silliness of this approach, there have been few signs of recognition that people live in Metro areas today, rather than towns.
The problem is with what it has turned into is the COL is irrelevent. Over on my side of the fence, we have 98.7 licensed to Holmes Beach. The transmitter is CBS in Pinellas County. With the exception of TOH-ID, there is little mention of Manatee County, let alone poor little Holmes Beach. The computer decided the zip code was right for the spacing.
Does Miami Beach deserve the amount of signals it has as their COL?
The COLs are hardly being recognized because the revenue to market to the smaller town is cost prohibitive. And the returns of the marketing to the larger metro is much greater. This is where the cable channels and dreaded LPFMs are going to have the advantage, eventually.

Jeff in Sa-ra-so-ta!
 
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