Those three suggestions were meant to be sarcasm, BRNout. Are you in Big Rapids (WBRN)? I used to listen to WLS a lot in the 1970s near Big Rapids. I had a twisted twin lead 20 feet high fed into a tuned homemade RF preamp, and it blasted in all day long, not just at night. I was there when Landecker changed airshifts, and had the "Jane (Beat The Machine Dame)" parody, so really I'm not that clueless as to suggest any of those seriously.
-
Get involved.
We want your input!
Apply for Membership and join the conversations about everything related to broadcasting.
After we receive your registration, a moderator will review it. After your registration is approved, you will be permitted to post.
If you use a disposable or false email address, your registration will be rejected.
After your membership is approved, please take a minute to tell us a little bit about yourself.
https://www.radiodiscussions.com/forums/introduce-yourself.1088/
Thanks in advance and have fun!
RadioDiscussions Administrators
Chicago Radio Ratings Released12-01-2021
- Thread starter Dr Wayne
- Start date
Buyers who go by the ratings numbers don't buy off the "latest book". They buy off an average of, perhaps, 6 PPM books. So even if there are a couple of out of range books, they average out.
When you are programming a "format" of conservative talk, plugging in hosts who are not conservative is not a recipe for success. You may say that people want diversity in talk radio, but the evidence indicates that they do not. It's why MSNBC doesn't try having a conservative show in the middle of their schedule.
Well programmed conservative talkers have consistency because those stations do well thanks to TSL. They don't get key demos, so they depend on loyalty. When you go from Bongino to Shapiro to Howell (who pokes fun at them) back to Levin (sometimes), that's not consistent. Those who like the sydie hosts won't like Howell and vice versa. Look at the programming of more successful stations in the format. Nearby WISN just placed #1 in Milwaukee (18+), which is impressive for an AM with a lousy night signal..
Actually, I agree with you David - and I guess my thought process had to do with the viability of the format or programming. This may well be a bad book, we will see. But it is bad enough to drag them down.
Also, I've noticed a couple of stations that took a dive starting a couple of months ago. WRME took a drop and now stays steady. That's just one example. Makes me wonder if the sample size is small enough that replacing a couple of the PPM participants makes the difference for some stations (which may not represent real overall listenership).
Yes, a heavy use household (meters are placed by dwelling units, not individuals) that drops out can noticeably hurt a station that does not get a replacement user when the meters turn over.
Yeah, in a sense. When people go to a station that says Conservative Talk or "Progressive Talk" (Such as KDSP back in the day), that's what they expect to hear. It's too bad that most of us just sit in our political bubbles listening to our own eco chambers and cocoons, but that's just how it goes. However, I am making the effort to get a similar amount of time from competing talk stations when I can.
Although, to call out your MSNBC example, Fox ran for years with Hannity and Colmes and CNN had Crossfire. These show did fail after a decade or so, but they did prove that someone must've liked the idea. However in the modern day, these stations have mainly focusing on their own decided "party". You are right that you don't see the opposition hosting their own show.
Which explains why WGN kills WLS. Chicago is not the place for Levin or Shapiro.
Too bad because I think Big John is a good host, and would do better if he wasn't surrounded by screaming cats. But the main reason the station exists is to clear the Cumulus syndicated shows in market #3.
WISN does very well in Milwaukee for a variety of reasons. The market is more politically conservative than Chicago. They also overlap journalists with local TV, print, and other media sources. WTMJ does a similar approach.
While I would love to see WLS flip to a more progressive talk format like WCPT, that's just not going to happen. Progressive talk doesn't do well on the AM dial. Those listeners find their content on other mediums.
I think WLS relies too much on syndicated programming, which is why they see the poor ratings compared to WGN and WBBM. People like to hear a mix of local and national voices, regardless of political viewpoints.
While I would love to see WLS flip to a more progressive talk format like WCPT, that's just not going to happen. Progressive talk doesn't do well on the AM dial. Those listeners find their content on other mediums.
I think WLS relies too much on syndicated programming, which is why they see the poor ratings compared to WGN and WBBM. People like to hear a mix of local and national voices, regardless of political viewpoints.
WTMJ was for decades a full service AC station. It was owned by Journal Broadcast Group who also owned the newspaper and WTMJ-TV. They went all talk during the first Iraq war in the early 90s. They did Conservative Talk with Charlie Sykes and Jeff Wagner in the middays. Rest of the station was more general talk and news like WGN. Journal sold the newspaper, and sold the TV and Radio Stations to Scripps. Scripps being a TV company sold the radio stations to Craig Karmazin’s Good Karma Broadcasting in 2018. Since then, WTMJ has gone more into the general talk and news direction, similar to WGN.
WISN was also a full service AC station. They went All Talk in 1988 or so. Hearst (WISN-TV) owned the station at the time. They sold to Clear Channel (Now iHeart). It carries the usual syndicated suspects and Mark Belling (Local) in the afternoon drive who is popular. Waukesha, Ozaukee and Washington Counties (Aka the WOW Counties) that surround Milwaukee County are hyper Conservative. WISN superserves them and they listen. When people are unhappy with something going on in politics, they listen to WISN. Lately, this has been the case with the Coronavirus, Biden, Inflation, whenever something angers Conservatives, it drives up WISN’s ratings. Record numbers in the last year.
Liberals do not get their Talk from AM Radio usually. It was tried by Clear Channel in numerous markets but it didn’t last. Progressives tend to listen to NPR for news, and Podcasts when they want political talk. They don’t use AM Radio. Conservatives do.
In Chicago’s case, being a mostly Democratic city even in the surrounding counties, the only Talk stations that seem to do well are WBBM (Not Political), WBEZ (NPR) and to a lesser extent WGN, which is also not all that political. This makes sense given what I described above about how people on the left side of the spectrum get their Talk.
In Madison, which is quite Liberal, WIBA-AM (The average syndicated Conservative Talk station) does decently. However I believe a lot of that involves surrounding areas which are more Conservative than Madison and Dane County itself. Unlike WISN, WIBA also carries Brewers, Packers and Badgers Play-by-Play which drive up the ratings.
Those who continue to ignore the elephant in the room need to read this again.
In particular, the section called "Going Against Strong Competition". This article was written by the late Glen Clark, who was the CE of WLS-FM, and staff Engineer for WLS (AM) for quite a number of years. He investigated moving WLS to Addison, IL in the 1970s for this reason. It's on the History Card. The location was near Grace and Fullerton.
www.thebdr.net
People who make judgments about the "politics of an area" should consider that the general WLS format did well for years. I agree that it has to do with Rush Limbaugh passing away. The Detroit Area is hardly a conservative area, mostly voting Democratic, yet WJR, in the resulting format disarray, continues to do quite a bit better than WLS. I attribute that to what David says about the ever increasing noise floor on AM, and needing at least 15 mV/m to be viable on AM, and that that contour misses the more affluent conservative areas North of Chicago. For some coincidental reason, the same more affluent demographic is North of Detroit, but WJR has double the signal there, equivalent to WLS going from 50 kW to 200 kW at its present location.
Also note that MANY stations are DIPLEXING now, so suggesting a diplex further North is not "off the wall". WBBM and WSCR (almost typed WMAQ) recently diplexed.
Note that I attribute SOME of it to FORMAT, but some of it to the SIGNAL.
Jeremy, I have had relatives from Evanston, Park Ridge, and Des Plaines, to the Union Grove-Racine Area, and have visited the area for extended periods for nearly 60 years, so I am quite familiar with those areas. I noticed the weak signal on WLS compared to the other powerhouses as soon as I picked up a transistor radio near those areas in the early 1960s. Regarding translators in your area, I tried to listen to the Racine and Kenosha translators for WRJN 1400 in the car, and found that they were OK in the house I stayed at, but driving around, to Racine and Kenosha, I found that the AM was a lot better in the car, at least in the Daytime. 250 watt translators are not the whole answer for AM, even in medium sized towns.
The suggestions I made suggesting what might happen to WLS were somewhat tongue in cheek.
My relatives go from one end of the political spectrum to the other. One relative listens to WFMT and WBEZ and watches WTTW almost exclusively. Another listens to WTMJ and WISN almost exclusively. Thanksgiving Dinners were always...er...awkward. The upside of our current chaos is that for the last two years, we had an excuse to not go.
In particular, the section called "Going Against Strong Competition". This article was written by the late Glen Clark, who was the CE of WLS-FM, and staff Engineer for WLS (AM) for quite a number of years. He investigated moving WLS to Addison, IL in the 1970s for this reason. It's on the History Card. The location was near Grace and Fullerton.
The Audio Prism Story
[June 2011] In the history of audio processing, the TEXAR Audio Prism holds its own place as one of the key tools in the arsenals of stations fighting to produce their “signature” sound and stand
www.thebdr.net
People who make judgments about the "politics of an area" should consider that the general WLS format did well for years. I agree that it has to do with Rush Limbaugh passing away. The Detroit Area is hardly a conservative area, mostly voting Democratic, yet WJR, in the resulting format disarray, continues to do quite a bit better than WLS. I attribute that to what David says about the ever increasing noise floor on AM, and needing at least 15 mV/m to be viable on AM, and that that contour misses the more affluent conservative areas North of Chicago. For some coincidental reason, the same more affluent demographic is North of Detroit, but WJR has double the signal there, equivalent to WLS going from 50 kW to 200 kW at its present location.
Also note that MANY stations are DIPLEXING now, so suggesting a diplex further North is not "off the wall". WBBM and WSCR (almost typed WMAQ) recently diplexed.
Note that I attribute SOME of it to FORMAT, but some of it to the SIGNAL.
Jeremy, I have had relatives from Evanston, Park Ridge, and Des Plaines, to the Union Grove-Racine Area, and have visited the area for extended periods for nearly 60 years, so I am quite familiar with those areas. I noticed the weak signal on WLS compared to the other powerhouses as soon as I picked up a transistor radio near those areas in the early 1960s. Regarding translators in your area, I tried to listen to the Racine and Kenosha translators for WRJN 1400 in the car, and found that they were OK in the house I stayed at, but driving around, to Racine and Kenosha, I found that the AM was a lot better in the car, at least in the Daytime. 250 watt translators are not the whole answer for AM, even in medium sized towns.
The suggestions I made suggesting what might happen to WLS were somewhat tongue in cheek.
My relatives go from one end of the political spectrum to the other. One relative listens to WFMT and WBEZ and watches WTTW almost exclusively. Another listens to WTMJ and WISN almost exclusively. Thanksgiving Dinners were always...er...awkward. The upside of our current chaos is that for the last two years, we had an excuse to not go.
Last edited:
The collapse of WLS is quite astounding, but looking at all of the other former big market stations owned by ABC then eventually Cumulus, how many afe doing well? WABC was a basement dweller before it was eventually sold. KABC in LA doesn’t really have a chance against KFI, is signal challenged (surprised since they sold KLOS that they keep it). KGO and KSFO in the Bay Area hang around a 1-2 share. I know Cumulus wants clearance for certain shows in markets, but at what point do these dinosaurs no longer serve the company?
There are a few exceptions - 6+, WJR in Detroit still shows some signs of life hanging around a 3-4 share. WBAP Dallas holds its own, and most surprisingly to me, WMAL in DC (now FM only) still shows pretty well in the beauty pageant numbers.
Are WJR. WBAP, and WMAL doing something different than WLS and its struggling counterparts? Or, more likely, are they just in areas where there are more listeners that resonate with the views they air?
There are a few exceptions - 6+, WJR in Detroit still shows some signs of life hanging around a 3-4 share. WBAP Dallas holds its own, and most surprisingly to me, WMAL in DC (now FM only) still shows pretty well in the beauty pageant numbers.
Are WJR. WBAP, and WMAL doing something different than WLS and its struggling counterparts? Or, more likely, are they just in areas where there are more listeners that resonate with the views they air?
The strange thing is that in the early 60's, WLS had a decent daytime signal and, of course, a great night signal in the Northport-Suttons Bay-Omena area of Leelanau County NW of Traverse City. I could listen on my car radio or on a portable or, of course, on the HQ-180 with a loop.
Chicago has WGN; Detroit does not have a WGN-like station. That's one reason WJR outperforms WLS in the beauty pageant numbers.
The Great Lakes do a marvelous job of propagating AM signals. Milwaukee's WTMJ booms into Ludington, MI both day and night with a city-grade quality signal. Newsradio 950 WWJ during daytime hours can be heard in downtown Cleveland with pristine quality, which is pretty remarkable given WWJ's pattern. Detroit's 1130 & 1270 also can be heard fairly well in downtown Cleveland.
The Great Lakes do a marvelous job of propagating AM signals. Milwaukee's WTMJ booms into Ludington, MI both day and night with a city-grade quality signal. Newsradio 950 WWJ during daytime hours can be heard in downtown Cleveland with pristine quality, which is pretty remarkable given WWJ's pattern. Detroit's 1130 & 1270 also can be heard fairly well in downtown Cleveland.
Truthfully, the "collapse of WLS" isn't a recent thing, but you are correct about the former ABC stations. They are a big part of what drove Citadel and Cumulus into bankruptcy. KGO San Francisco has been stuck in the basement for a very long time.
I have been studying ground conductivity and radio signals empirically (car radio, transistor radio signal quality, signal S meter type measurements, and scan stopping), comparing field strength measurements using borrowed FIM-21 and FIM-41 Potomac meters compared to M-3 predictions, hundreds of AM BC applications on fcc.gov, and now I bought a used FCC meter that had been replaced with an FIM-4100 and was up for sale. I have done this for decades.
Here is an interesting table, and there are others. If signals across Lake Michigan have decreased, I have to wonder if it is because of reduction of industrial pollution, specifically ionic salts. I wonder about Gary, IN no longer having many steel mills any more and other industries that might have put a lot of ionic salts into Lake Michigan decreasing conductivity. And of course, suburban sprawl and development decreasing conductivity. Some of these might explain WLS, WTMJ, and many others apparently reduced signals. Soil types vary widely in many areas, along with effective conductivity. So all of those may act to reduce those signals over the years. Here is a good table. Industrial areas are shown as being from 0.1 to 1 mS/m, most likely based on proof of performance radial measurements for applications.
WLS may be well below the 15 mV/m now in those Northern Suburbs that were based on M-3.
conductivity_chart.png
Here is an interesting table, and there are others. If signals across Lake Michigan have decreased, I have to wonder if it is because of reduction of industrial pollution, specifically ionic salts. I wonder about Gary, IN no longer having many steel mills any more and other industries that might have put a lot of ionic salts into Lake Michigan decreasing conductivity. And of course, suburban sprawl and development decreasing conductivity. Some of these might explain WLS, WTMJ, and many others apparently reduced signals. Soil types vary widely in many areas, along with effective conductivity. So all of those may act to reduce those signals over the years. Here is a good table. Industrial areas are shown as being from 0.1 to 1 mS/m, most likely based on proof of performance radial measurements for applications.
WLS may be well below the 15 mV/m now in those Northern Suburbs that were based on M-3.
conductivity_chart.png
It's not just the signal decreasing, but the noise floor increasing caused by electronic devices that didn't exist 50 years ago.
Yes, and even 15 mV/m doesn't cut it in some areas, and certainly not inside steel buildings. You often need 25 mV/m outside to even hear the signal at all, and 100 mV/m outside the building to hear it well inside.
I’m assuming going back to the Citadel days (and maybe even ABC) that these stations kept losing value but no one wanted to sell them because of the loss they’d take. Cumulus unloaded WABC, but they got 12.5 million for a 50kw clear channel AM in NYC. And that was an owner that really wanted the station. That’s probably a fraction of what the station was worth in 2006.
And honestly, that was the most valuable station - I can’t see Cumulus getting much for KABC, KGO, KSFO, or WLS. I’m sure if a buyer came along they’d sell them for a good price, but they’ve lost so much value + Cumulus would lose clearance in large markets that it’s probably not worth a few million bucks. Unfortunately these are dinosaurs that have had their time and are not mass appeal to their markets, and there isn’t enough listenership there. Plus, they’re on a dying band that is losing value by the day that is basically like staring off a cliff.
I’d imagine WBAP and WJR still bring in a decent amount of money for Cumulus. WMAL obviously did well enough for them to blow up a FM signal to migrate the news/talk format to.
Politically, I'm very conservative… with that card on the table, from a business standpoint, they would do considerably better on a higher power station. WCPT had a loyal, intense following. It doesn't do better because their AM 820 signal is poor beyond 10 miles in most households, thanks to a high noise floor.
- Status