I was on a remote today and ended up in a nearby store afterwards and it just so happens that the store plays our station over their stereo for the employees and customers to listen to. While I was there, the manager pulled me aside and asked me if it was true that "its illegal for him to play the station in the store" and I asked him why he'd say that. He told me that someone claiming to be from Sirius Radio stopped in and told him that due to licensing and such, that the store could get into big trouble and he urged them to "sign up for Sirius instead". I told the guy, sounds rediculous to me. I said that the radio station pays Ascap and BMI fees to play the music over the airwaves and that I didn't see how him getting Sirius would be any different, as they too have to pay Ascap and BMI fees to operate and that if he needed to pay licensing fees to play us in his store, then surely he'd have to pay the fees to broadcast Sirius instead. Anyone else heard of this kind of scare tactic from Sirius? I cannot believe they'd stoop to trying to frighten businesses to attract new subs. Also, does anyone know the true legalities of someone playing the public airwaves in their store? As far as I know, it should be legit.
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Anyone heard of Sirius crashing local businesses?
- Thread starter shilton
- Start date
I believe ASCAP's view is that the radio license does not provide the right to re-
broadcast the music in a business, restaurant, or over a loudspeaker. I'm not sure you're even allowed to use the signal for "on hold" fill on a phone system.
I don't know if their terms are different for satellite broadcasts.
broadcast the music in a business, restaurant, or over a loudspeaker. I'm not sure you're even allowed to use the signal for "on hold" fill on a phone system.
I don't know if their terms are different for satellite broadcasts.
If you want to play any radio station in a retail store/restaurant/etc, in which the customers can hear or listen to, even if just background, the business must pay a fee to Ascap/BMI to be considered LEGAL. Of course, anyone can play the radio, just hope one of the Ascap/BMI "police" don't come in or you get a nice fine to pay. Many have went to Sirius or XM broadcasting due to the fact that you can get a "commercial" subscription monthly to either for A LOT LESS than the Ascap/BMI fees you would pay to run the FM radio.
I don't think if you are playing the radio in the office or kitchen of a restaurant for employees would count, but in a PUBLIC area, it does.
Take it as gospel from a business owner who has dealt with the issue before. LOL
I don't think if you are playing the radio in the office or kitchen of a restaurant for employees would count, but in a PUBLIC area, it does.
Take it as gospel from a business owner who has dealt with the issue before. LOL
H
hammondo
Guest
Clangham said;"If you want to play any radio station in a retail store/restaurant/etc, in which the customers can hear or listen to, even if just background, the business must pay a fee to Ascap/BMI to be considered LEGAL. Of course, anyone can play the radio, just hope one of the Ascap/BMI "police" don't come in or you get a nice fine to pay."
YES - this is absolutely true. Ascrap has several hundred "police" aeround the US.
YES - this is absolutely true. Ascrap has several hundred "police" aeround the US.
A
ameyer
Guest
Ok wait you are kidding me right? So for a business to play a radio station on the public airwaves that the station is already paying an arm and a leg for the business owner must also pay the BMI/ASCAP fees? What a bunch of BS isn't this why it is called public airwaves? I'm sure if this is true there is some legal loophole somewhere.
FROM THE ASCAP WEBSITE:
Whenever music is performed publicly the songwriter and music publisher, who created and own that music, have the right to grant or deny permission to use their property and to receive compensation for that use.
WHAT DOES THAT MEAN:
I simply read it like this, if the station is playing a song it is being played publicly and that is basically what the fees are covering. There is no reason that I can see on the website, nor does it say on the website anywhere that a business owner would have to pay ASCAP the same fees as well, for playing a radio station inside their store, and if Sirus is using this approach why would the business owner not have to pay the fees regardless?
FROM THE ASCAP WEBSITE:
Whenever music is performed publicly the songwriter and music publisher, who created and own that music, have the right to grant or deny permission to use their property and to receive compensation for that use.
WHAT DOES THAT MEAN:
I simply read it like this, if the station is playing a song it is being played publicly and that is basically what the fees are covering. There is no reason that I can see on the website, nor does it say on the website anywhere that a business owner would have to pay ASCAP the same fees as well, for playing a radio station inside their store, and if Sirus is using this approach why would the business owner not have to pay the fees regardless?
ameyer said:
Yes, that's the way it works. The store or restaurant or business establishment must, by law, pay for that.
I once knew someone who worked part-time for one of the licensing agencies (either ASCAP or BMI), whose "job" it was to eat a meal in a restaurant which wasn't complying, so that he could verify that they were paying without playing. He was then ready to testify if the licensing agency had to take that business to court.
The law is pretty open and shut. The restaurant or other business must pay. It has nothing to do with the radio station using the so-called "public" airwaves.
(If you were a songwriter or composer, you would probably think it was a good idea.)
ameyer said:
Sirius and XM (and any of the other services which provide music like that) pay the fees directly. Part of the contract, when they supply piped-in music to a business, is that all of the licensing and fees are covered.
Jay
H
hammondo
Guest
In YOUR ear, in YOUR car, in YOUR house it's ok. The LAW, however, distinguishes between private and PUBLIC - in a store, a restaurant, etc.
I KNOW an Indiana restaurant that did not have an ASCRAP license, that had a lawsuit from those people that put them out of business, when the "ascrap police" presented a list of 200 songs that were "performed that were NOT paid for.
I KNOW an Indiana restaurant that did not have an ASCRAP license, that had a lawsuit from those people that put them out of business, when the "ascrap police" presented a list of 200 songs that were "performed that were NOT paid for.
N
number one fan
Guest
On top of everything else, XM and Sirius play music only on their music channels. The store can select the exact type of music it wants with no commercials (including possibly commercials for competitors). If the price is reasonable, I imagine most store owners would rather go that route.
Personally, I have going into a bar or restaurant with music playing (from where ever) and you can't have a conversation. I don't see why bars and restaurants, especially, feel the need to subject people to music nobody has asked for.
Next they will crack down on all those bars with the ballgame on radio and TV, which is also illegal (listen to the legal announcement in each game).
Personally, I have going into a bar or restaurant with music playing (from where ever) and you can't have a conversation. I don't see why bars and restaurants, especially, feel the need to subject people to music nobody has asked for.
Next they will crack down on all those bars with the ballgame on radio and TV, which is also illegal (listen to the legal announcement in each game).
H
hammondo
Guest
Incidentally, tiis ascrap police practice has been going on for at least 25 years. With my music knowledge, I was offered such a ppositin in 1985. I refused.
The way I had it explained to me was, that if the radio was sitting behind the sales counter in a store playing music, it was allowable. IF the radio were plugged into a device that would DISTRIBUTE the music to multiple speakers thoughout the store, it was NOT allowable & a license fee would have to be paid.
Am I understanding now that if a boom box playing station WXYZ-FM in a store, the licensing police could nail you?
Does someone know what the word "extortion" means?
Am I understanding now that if a boom box playing station WXYZ-FM in a store, the licensing police could nail you?
Does someone know what the word "extortion" means?
R
raydofan
Guest
ameyer said:
We can debate til cows fly if there are 'public' airwaves. But you're missing the point of 'free airwaves' vs. 'engaging in commerce using other people's work as a backdrop'. If you host a band, a jukebox, or radio playing someone's 'hits', then you gotta pay for that representation.
R
raydofan
Guest
Erik Lane said:
Yes. This isn't extortion. You don't have to play anything in a store or anywhere else. But if you want that luxury, pay the goddam fees.
A
ameyer
Guest
Definition of a public performance as defined on ASCAP's website:
A public performance is one that occurs either in a public place or any place where people gather (other than a small circle of a family or its social acquaintances.) A public performance is also one that is transmitted to the public; for example, radio or television broadcasts, music-on-hold, cable television, and by the internet. Generally, those who publicly perform music obtain permission from the owner of the music or his representative. However, there are a few limited exceptions, (called "exemptions") to this rule. Permission is not required for music played or sung as part of a worship service unless that service is transmitted beyond where it takes place (for example, a radio or television broadcast). Performances as part of face to face teaching activity at a non-profit educational institutions are also exempt.
It seems to me that a radio playing songs in a store falls under public place, and that so called radio station is paying the fee, so what is the problem? Why should someone else have to pay for something that is already being paid for? It makes no sense, if a business plays a CD on the CD Player do they have to pay the royalties on that too? If this is the case then how come I don't see any night clubs paying ASCAP? Public place right? It really makes no sense!
A public performance is one that occurs either in a public place or any place where people gather (other than a small circle of a family or its social acquaintances.) A public performance is also one that is transmitted to the public; for example, radio or television broadcasts, music-on-hold, cable television, and by the internet. Generally, those who publicly perform music obtain permission from the owner of the music or his representative. However, there are a few limited exceptions, (called "exemptions") to this rule. Permission is not required for music played or sung as part of a worship service unless that service is transmitted beyond where it takes place (for example, a radio or television broadcast). Performances as part of face to face teaching activity at a non-profit educational institutions are also exempt.
It seems to me that a radio playing songs in a store falls under public place, and that so called radio station is paying the fee, so what is the problem? Why should someone else have to pay for something that is already being paid for? It makes no sense, if a business plays a CD on the CD Player do they have to pay the royalties on that too? If this is the case then how come I don't see any night clubs paying ASCAP? Public place right? It really makes no sense!
I have a problem with that.
No store I've ever been in who plays the radio charges an admission fee to enter their store to browse through the sale items.
No one I know of frequents a store more often based on the kind of music they play.
Ergo, no real profits can be attributed to the store owner by the simple use of a boombox playing a local radio station.
This is the same thing as trying to enact a noise ordinance in a local community. What may be too loud for one group, is just fine for another. It may be playing music for the employees or it's background music. It's a relative issue. I see it as a bunch of money-hungry blue suits trying to squeeze as much as they can out of an industry who's demise is swiftly coming. It's no secret that the music industry is losing money to technology & this is a desparate attempt to manhandle as many people as possible out of desparation.
No store I've ever been in who plays the radio charges an admission fee to enter their store to browse through the sale items.
No one I know of frequents a store more often based on the kind of music they play.
Ergo, no real profits can be attributed to the store owner by the simple use of a boombox playing a local radio station.
This is the same thing as trying to enact a noise ordinance in a local community. What may be too loud for one group, is just fine for another. It may be playing music for the employees or it's background music. It's a relative issue. I see it as a bunch of money-hungry blue suits trying to squeeze as much as they can out of an industry who's demise is swiftly coming. It's no secret that the music industry is losing money to technology & this is a desparate attempt to manhandle as many people as possible out of desparation.
R
raydofan
Guest
ameyer said:
It makes perfect sense. A radio station pays a fee to broadcast music, a venue/establishment has to pay a seperate fee to cover if it is reproduced there. It is not either/or.
Can you put a restaurant in a radio?
ameyer said:
If a night club or concert hall does not pay via the music licensing agencies, then it too will risk legal action against it.
That's why these licensing agencies exist: To collect the writer-composer fees for the public performance.
None of this is new, by the way, for the original copyright legislation is several decades old. The only new development being reported here is that Sirius is pointing out the potential liability of the business establishment as a way of selling its own services.
Jay
H
hammondo
Guest
Eric said; "I have a problem with that."
ameyer said; It seems to me that a radio playing songs in a store falls under public place, and that so called radio station is paying the fee, so what is the problem? Why should someone else have to pay for something that is already being paid for?
Well, I didn't make the rules. I'm only smart enough to know the rules.
ameyer said; It seems to me that a radio playing songs in a store falls under public place, and that so called radio station is paying the fee, so what is the problem? Why should someone else have to pay for something that is already being paid for?
Well, I didn't make the rules. I'm only smart enough to know the rules.
hammondo said:
Would someone who is smart enough to know the rules please interpret this (and the rest of this page) to those of us who are not?
"Early versions of the copyright law limited the exclusive right to performances given "publicly for profit." Today, however, the "for profit" limitation has been repealed and only an explicit list of exempt performances do not require a license from the copyright owner. These include performances by instructors or students during face to face teaching activities of nonprofit educational institutions, performances of music in the course of religious services at a place of worship, and performances by the public communication of a radio or television transmission by eating, drinking, or retail establishments of a certain size which use a limited number of speakers or televisions and if no charge is made to see or hear the transmission (See Section 110(5) of the Copyright Act as revised. See www.lcweb.loc.gov/copyright)."
From The Better Business Bureau:
http://www.bbb.org/alerts/article.asp?ID=451
A bar/nightclub/lounge/restaurant/etc, ALL have to pay ASCAP/BMI fees, whether it is live bands, juke box, radio. If they do not, they will be fined too. Plenty of them have been fined in Altoona and Pittsburgh that I know personally about.
One of my musician friends enlightened me that there is a royalty fee if a band wants to perform someone elses song also.
One of my musician friends enlightened me that there is a royalty fee if a band wants to perform someone elses song also.
ameyer said:
I agree that it makes no sense, but (just to re-confirm what others have already said) those are the rules and ASCAP does indeed enforce it if they happen to catch you. Nor is this a particularly new development. I first heard about this probably 10 or 12 years ago, and I'm sure it had been going on long before that.
As far as Sirius trying to capitalize on this...I don't know if it's unethical or not. They're not lying. Seems like "just business" to me. But I kind of find it surprising that they would have someone scouring a market of this size trying to attract customers. It doesn't seem very cost effective.
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