Again, Agency - Client research is OFF

[gr8oldies]

Somehow I'm trying to picture this mythical oldies station..maybe the new WLS-FM. Killer jocks, great imaging, great jingles, and every commercial reminding me how old I'm getting!

 

[deltas69]

Somehow I'm trying to picture this mythical oldies station..maybe the new WLS-FM. Killer jocks, great imaging, great jingles, and every commercial reminding me how old I'm getting!....well i have it all..the music..the WLS jingles,..the lyle dean, jeffery hendrix news,..the spots..SUNDAY, SUNDAY,,WHERE THE GREAT ONES RUUUNNNNNN !!!...now if i could just figure out to throw up an internet station and have it break even...but it doesn't make me feel how old i am...makes me feel how young i was..BOOGIE CHECK !!!!!!!!!

 

[Tom Wells]

The new WLS FM could be something staggering incredible if everything mentiioned were incorporated AND Bob Stroud, or
someone as (who?) were in charge of music. I keep wondering if anyone at Citadel is ready to do the same thing as Ford,
who must have said,

"Just look at that '65-70 Mustang! We gotta do another run of something like that!"

Why weren't they so afraid of their heritage? What about the new Dodge Challenger?

What do automakers know that radio doesn't?

We all know it can be done, question is, will they do it?

 

[TheFonz]

LA, for example, would still have 37 FMs doing all manner of music formats aimed at 18-54.

They might "aim", but they're going to miss a whole lot of 18-29. That would make 37 stations competing for a demo of 24 years. Not a good ratio, in my opinion.

 

[amfmsw]

Mr.D, I don't know where to begin to respond to reply #133, but please understand this.

I, advertisers, agencies, do NOT care how massive your 12+ cume is, or any cume really. That's spoken like a true consultant.

Anyone else here do sales? If they bought cume, usually measured 12+, they would be giving CPM mandates and schedule goals. CPM.

They buy CPP. CPP gets more competitive with longer TSL because the AQH is up, therefore the station can charge more. The crap with cume, we don't sell cume. Radio sells frequency and reach. You can not get minimun 3 frequency with competitive rates with crap TSL. Would you rather tell 10,000 people once, or 1,000 people 10 times. Which would be more effective to boost your ROI? Get real.

Yes, we agree, the current Cadillac campaign is ineffective, "sexy without sales". That is why the stock price has seen pressure.

And the most rediculous thing is a product recovering market share after it's killed kids. Reformulate? REFORMULATE?! What's the new slogan? Brusha, brusha, brusha with Ipana...hasn't killed a kid in 4 months? New Ipana, now death free? New Ipana, now with chlorine giving you whiter teeth and guaranteed not to make your jaw rot? I expected better.

 

[DavidEduardo]

LA, for example, would still have 37 FMs doing all manner of music formats aimed at 18-54.

They might "aim", but they're going to miss a whole lot of 18-29. That would make 37 stations competing for a demo of 24 years. Not a good ratio, in my opinion.

There is no 18-29 demo. There is 18-24, 21-34 and 18-34. In 18-34, radio's reach is within a couple of percent of the all time high in the diary, and just as high in the PPM.

 

[DavidEduardo]

I, advertisers, agencies, do NOT care how massive your 12+ cume is, or any cume really. That's spoken like a true consultant.

Actually, individual stations are bought on CPP but campaigns are set by reach and frequency which is the "other" goal of a set of in-market station buys and is based on cume and AQH in the target demo. In r&f evaluations, the idea is to optimize reach AND frequency by controlling duplicated cume of the buy so that some people don't get much higher frequency and others much lower.

Anyone else here do sales?

I did sales for about 30 years, including national and local.

If they bought cume, usually measured 12+,

Cume is measured for every possible demo, just like AQH, share, rating, cume rating, etc. That is how you measure TSL, by using the interaction of both. And it is TSL which determines the spot effjiciency in r&f calculations, too.

they would be giving CPM mandates and schedule goals. CPM. They buy CPP. CPP gets more competitive with longer TSL because the AQH is up, therefore the station can charge more.

CPM and CPP are identical. A ratings point is 1% of the local market so CPP is the cost of reaching a point's worth of listeners. CPM is the cost per thousand listeners of any market or station buy. Both measure the same thing... just as share, AQH persons and rating are three measurements of the same identical thing using three different metrics. It's the same as measuring in feet or meters; the number is different but the object is still the same size.

The crap with cume, we don't sell cume. Radio sells frequency and reach.

Huh? Reach is = cume. Cume is a measure of reach, circulation, different people exposed, etc.

You have a problem with terminology i you think we "sell reach and not cume" since reach and cume are two terms for the same exact thing.

You can not get minimun 3 frequency with competitive rates with crap TSL.

Yes, you easily can. A high cumer like a KYW or WINS may have low share due to low TSL. But the high cume makes up for the low TSL and delivers efficiently at very high rates. A High TSL station may have very low cume, so it gives horrible reach but great frequency, too.

Average TSL and Average cume, high cume and low TSL and High TSL and low cume can yield the same share / rating /AQH persons.

 

[TheFonz]

LA, for example, would still have 37 FMs doing all manner of music formats aimed at 18-54.

They might "aim", but they're going to miss a whole lot of 18-29. That would make 37 stations competing for a demo of 24 years. Not a good ratio, in my opinion.

There is no 18-29 demo. There is 18-24, 21-34 and 18-34. In 18-34, radio's reach is within a couple of percent of the all time high in the diary, and just as high in the PPM.

O.K................scratch "demo" and call it a group. You can't tell us that 18-29 as a group is listening to terrestrial radio as much as they did 10 or 15 years ago. So you will still have 37 stations competing for a "group" that is 30-54 years of age, a 24 year span. And 5 years from now that 29 moves to 34, shrinking the span even further! It don't look good for radio, folks.

 

[DavidEduardo]

There is no 18-29 demo. There is 18-24, 21-34 and 18-34. In 18-34, radio's reach is within a couple of percent of the all time high in the diary, and just as high in the PPM.


O.K................scratch "demo" and call it a group. You can't tell us that 18-29 as a group is listening to terrestrial radio as much as they did 10 or 15 years ago. So you will still have 37 stations competing for a "group" that is 30-54 years of age, a 24 year span. And 5 years from now that 29 moves to 34, shrinking the span even further! It don't look good for radio, folks.

While the time spent listening to radio has declined more in 18-24 than other demos, the usage of radio by the younger demos has not declined... around 95% of 18-24 and 25-34's use radio per PPM data.

Although I have mentioned it before, the #1 and #2 billing stations in the whole country, KIIS and KROQ in LA, are pure 18-34 targeted stations. The 9th highest US revenue producer, WHTZ in New York and the 11th, Hip Hop KPWR in LA, are both targeted 18-34.

Those stations are competing for 18-24 and 18-34, and are doing very, very, very, very. well. Similarly targeted 18-34 stations are doing well in, I would say, all markets.

 

[amfmsw]

After reading the latest line by line "I gotta be right" rebuttal, please, for the love of God, please don't ever sell for me, or program. It's obvious, you couldn't figure out a way to tell the 35-64 story properly, and never mastered sales. I guess that's why there's format consultants. Another out of touch, I know what's best for you, condescending, consultant.

10-73...

 

[DavidEduardo]

After reading the latest line by line "I gotta be right" rebuttal, please, for the love of God, please don't ever sell for me, or program. It's obvious, you couldn't figure out a way to tell the 35-64 story properly, and never mastered sales.

Right. Last sales gig as DOS, top 15 market, #1 station (I was brought in to program and ended up selling), 27% annual average sales increase over an 8 year period.

You are ignoring the facts that 18-34 targeted stations are doing great in every market. 35-64 stations are not. There are budgets for 18-34, but not for 55+, which drags the 36-64 stations down. In fact, AM news talkers, the classic 45-64 and 45+ format, only bill well because they have on average nearly double the inventory of a music station so they can sell the "salable" under 55 numbers cheap and still bill marvelously.

It is really unlikely I woud want to sell or program for you, whoever you are, anyway.

 

[surfdude]

David E is very vocal in his posts. I program in a top 50 market,
and he makes me think and find out more facts. That's good.

You guys are arguing with one of the most knowledgable guys in the
business. David doesn't need me to defend his views and FACTS,
but stations he helps program and research are currently #1, #3, and #11 in Los Angeles!!

Thanks for all the great info Mr. Gleason.

 

[amfmsw]

I never post again after a 10-73, my electronic version of Pontius Pilate washing his hands of the matter and turning his back...but I need to clear my conscience

My Dear learned Cyber-Friend & Foil, Mr. D,

I apologize for tripping a breaker. You are a learned person, with whom I have professional differences of opinion. NOT personal.

I understand, appreciate even, your background and experience. However, you must comprehend we are not ALL in a Top 10 Market. The agency buys boost those stations' billing by millions. And that, sir is MY point. The agencies are off the mark in their young generation marketing exclusivity.

In Medium and smaller rated markets, and unrated as well, the station's rely more on local sales and partnership relationships. That is OUR success, with 35-64 audiences, AM or FM, local or regional. What I'm trying to explain to you, and give this a day or so before jumping to a reply, is that you, and other "Big City" clan can still learn from us in Middle America, and make MORE money for your clients with older audiences. Think it through, if the older Americans have more money, why not increase your stations' clients sales by reaching to the people with more money? The 18-34 is a fine, profitable marketing demo. But agencies, stations & advertisers are missing out on an extremely profitable 35-64 demo by not thinking out-of-the-box. There's only one #1 in a market, and a few big dogs, but there are hundreds of markets. You told us of your experience and success with your market...I ask that you listen to some of us others and OUR success as well. There's a lot to be learned from each other. Don't dismiss us as country bumpkin rubes.

 

[Don62]

After reading the latest line by line "I gotta be right" rebuttal, please, for the love of God, please don't ever sell for me, or program. It's obvious, you couldn't figure out a way to tell the 35-64 story properly, and never mastered sales.

Right. Last sales gig as DOS, top 15 market, #1 station (I was brought in to program and ended up selling), 27% annual average sales increase over an 8 year period.

You are ignoring the facts that 18-34 targeted stations are doing great in every market. 35-64 stations are not. There are budgets for 18-34, but not for 55+, which drags the 36-64 stations down. In fact, AM news talkers, the classic 45-64 and 45+ format, only bill well because they have on average nearly double the inventory of a music station so they can sell the "salable" under 55 numbers cheap and still bill marvelously.

It is really unlikely I woud want to sell or program for you, whoever you are, anyway.

Yeah, much like a helicopter rescue effort for some flood or disaster victims.

I imagine, if you were on such a plane, seeing only "older people," you'd say, "Nix, nix. They're out of the demo. Unimportant. Nobody buys that demo anyway."

Weren't you the knucklehead that suggested it was wrong for some FM oldies station to make mention of the 1969 Man on the Moon event? You said, because most of the audience would have been too young to remember that, the event was unimportant and on one cared anyway, in your narrow opinion.

What a bunch of malarchy. What's next, David. Ebonics for announcers?

 

[DavidEduardo]

I imagine, if you were on such a plane, seeing only "older people," you'd say, "Nix, nix. They're out of the demo. Unimportant. Nobody buys that demo anyway."

You know, I am quite sure, that there is a difference between business reality and being part of society. The same banker who tells you you can not get a large loan can also be in a community group you belong to where you work together.

It's the same thing with radio. The listeners I can not serve as a radio person because of lack of payback can certainly be my neighbors, friends and golf partners (were I to play golf, of course).

So your analogy is just dreadful. Powerfully dreadful. And irrelevant.

Weren't you the knucklehead

}

No, you seem to have me confused with a different knucklehead.

that suggested it was wrong for some FM oldies station to make mention of the 1969 Man on the Moon event? You said, because most of the audience would have been too young to remember that, the event was unimportant and on one cared anyway, in your narrow opinion.

No, I did not say that. However, unless a station, any station, can enhance "Today In History" that kind of feature is usually dull, didactic and dreary. Find a listener who was watching the event on TV that day and get their memories. Or paint a picture of what the year was like in other areas, like what a new car cost and how much milk and bread were at the market. Just reading a list won't cut it any more.

What a bunch of malarchy. What's next, David. Ebonics for announcers?

No, next is "Economic Reality for Posters 101." I already signed you up.

 

[TheFonz]

data.

Similarly targeted 18-34 stations are doing well in, I would say, all markets.

If I were an advertiser in Des Moines, Iowa, "I would say" wouldn't take a dollar out of my pocket.

 

[DavidEduardo]

Similarly targeted 18-34 stations are doing well in, I would say, all markets.

If I were an advertiser in Des Moines, Iowa, "I would say" wouldn't take a dollar out of my pocket.

KSTZ in Des Moines is a Hot AC (Adult CHR). It is #2 or 3 in every in 25-34, and also in 25-34, and #2 in 18-49 and 25-54. It's main target is 18-34 or 25-34.

It's #2 in billings only to WHO, and a much better buy. WHO is 15th in 18-34 and 9th in 18-49, and thus, useless in reaching most anyone under about 45.

Then there is KKDM, the true CHR, #2 12+ and #1 18-34 and 18-49. It's revenue growth is huge over the last two years since its ratings improved.

Based on costs and numbers, these two are must buys and both are young-targeted stations.

 

[firepoint525]

No, I did not say that. However, unless a station, any station, can enhance "Today In History" that kind of feature is usually dull, didactic and dreary. Find a listener who was watching the event on TV that day and get their memories. Or paint a picture of what the year was like in other areas, like what a new car cost and how much milk and bread were at the market. Just reading a list won't cut it any more.

Retro Lightning on Lightning 100 here in Nashville already does that. Around 11:45 (central time), they give prices on what various items cost in their featured year. This week, it was 1974; next week is 1967. You can listen to this program from 8:00 a.m. to noon (again, central time) at www.wrlt.com or www.lightning100.com. I'm not sure which. Keep in mind that they are a AAA station, so they do not limit what they play in their featured year to just the "hits," although they play those, too. It's too late to listen this week (although you can look at the playlist on their site), but make it a point to tune in next Saturday morning.

And they've done this program for 15 years now, so they must be doing something right!

 

[The Beave]

David send me the research on Grandforks, ND 1990-1993 - time slots and demos 12+ & 25-54 M/F.

I might be able to toss ya a cookie on this one here.

 

[DavidEduardo]

David send me the research on Grandforks, ND 1990-1993 - time slots and demos 12+ & 25-54 M/F.

Find the Duncan's American Radio for those years and you can read it yourself. I'm not a librarian.

I might be able to toss ya a cookie on this one here.

I have heard the Dakotas called many things, but not a cookie."