AAA on 96.5 HD-2 (KOIT HD-2)

[TheBigA]

I find it unlikely that this trend affects 100% of the stations I listen to but none of the other ones.

No syndication on K-Bay. No syndication on KOIT. All Local on the Fox. Just last week, Cumulus replaced a syndicated morning show on one of their NYC stations with a live & local announcer. If a live & local morning show would get KFOG a 2 share, they'd post an ad right now.

Ehh, not true about the KFOG morning show. The live and local morning show was popular when Dave Morey was at the helm. After he retired, they were never able to (or didn't care to) find anyone interesting to replace him.

So you want someone who's not only local, but also "interesting?" They hired Matt Pinfield, who was respected and had incredible heritage with the music community. What was wrong with him? What's wrong with Woody? Just because his show comes from LA doesn't mean he's not the same guy who was in San Francisco. Sometimes a station has to reach outside the market to find someone interesting.

 

[Radical348]

If a live & local morning show would get KFOG a 2 share, they'd post an ad right now.

No, they wouldn't. KFOG was pulling in high 2s and low 3s when DC was in charge (even with an uninteresting morning show) and Cumulus still axed him and then blew out the entire station.

So you want someone who's not only local, but also "interesting?" They hired Matt Pinfield, who was respected and had incredible heritage with the music community. What was wrong with him? What's wrong with Woody? Just because his show comes from LA doesn't mean he's not the same guy who was in San Francisco. Sometimes a station has to reach outside the market to find someone interesting.

Yes, of course the content has to be interesting. Otherwise nobody would listen, and this goes for all formats.

Pinfield didn't work in the SF market. No doubt he's knowledgable, but his brand of arrogance doesn't work here and his voice sounded like nails on a chalkboard. (This wasn't just my opinion, but it was common among the other people I talked to who listened to KFOG at the time. And he didn't really help much ratings-wise.)

Woody is the same guy as before but whether or not he is, isn't the point (and I never said there was anything wrong or uninteresting with him, and ratings for KFOG did increase post-Woody), -- the point is that with syndication they can get away with putting less and less effort into each individual station, and this is hurting niche formats like AAA.

 

[TheBigA]

No, they wouldn't. KFOG was pulling in high 2s and low 3s when DC was in charge (even with an uninteresting morning show) and Cumulus still axed him and then blew out the entire station.

Because the audience was old. That's the problem with a heritage station that basically stays unchanged for 25 years. The audience gets older, and no one younger tunes in. That's becoming a problem at a lot of rock stations around the country. Then advertisers complain that they don't want to buy ads in a station where the average age is over 50. Unless that audience is paying a subscription, there's no motivation to keep the morning guy. So they brought in younger people, and the old folks were unhappy. That's where they are now. A younger but smaller audience.

Woody is the same guy as before but whether or not he is, isn't the point (and I never said there was anything wrong or uninteresting with him, and ratings for KFOG did increase post-Woody), -- the point is that with syndication they can get away with putting less and less effort into each individual station, and this is hurting niche formats like AAA.

As I said, the music is what's hurting AAA. It's not a radio problem. Especially when we see that the audience mainly sleeps through the morning show anyway, and starts to tune in around noon. Why spend a lot of money on a morning show when the listeners are going to sleep through it anyway? We see it at other AAA stations too even with a live morning show.

 

[CTListener]

I find it amazing that people are still in denial that rock is dying when, to me, that's been obvious since the mid-'90s, when hip-hop and other purely rhythmic music -- ideal, at the time, for ringtones, which as you recall were a really big thing for a while -- started to dominate CHR. The suburban white kids who were the backbone of album rock in the '70s and '80s, found they liked the in-your-face rebellion, simple rhythms and "real" if middle-school-recess-level lyrics of rap more than the sludge that mainstream rock had turned into during the grunge fad. Rock had a great, long run, but it's not going to be relevant at radio again unless the younger demos start listening to it en masse.

 

[TheBigA]

Rock had a great, long run, but it's not going to be relevant at radio again unless the younger demos start listening to it en masse.

What we see is when younger people listen to rock, often it's classic rock, not active rock. The problem with current rock (besides the fact that it's largely derivative and repetitive) is that record labels have given up on it. If there's no one there to grease the wheels, the music doesn't get promoted at radio. That leaves all the legwork to the artists themselves, who are forced to go on unending tours of small clubs to make a living.

This summer Hootie & The Blowfish will tour again, and it could be one of the year's biggest, depending on the number of shows they end up doing. Lynyrd Skynyrd, Bob Seger, and Kiss are on Farewell Tours at a time when a new generation sees their music as current.

 

[CTListener]

What we see is when younger people listen to rock, often it's classic rock, not active rock. The problem with current rock (besides the fact that it's largely derivative and repetitive) is that record labels have given up on it. If there's no one there to grease the wheels, the music doesn't get promoted at radio. That leaves all the legwork to the artists themselves, who are forced to go on unending tours of small clubs to make a living.

This summer Hootie & The Blowfish will tour again, and it could be one of the year's biggest, depending on the number of shows they end up doing.

Hootie basically had one album's worth of ideas. That album was huge, but the group never did anything with half the impact afterward. Their airplay heyday barely lasted two years, although they survived at AC as recurrents for several more. Is there really a huge demand to see the band again? They didn't even have the longevity of Huey Lewis & the News, and those guys weren't packing stadiums as a nostalgia act.

 

[TheBigA]

Is there really a huge demand to see the band again? They didn't even have the longevity of Huey Lewis & the News, and those guys weren't packing stadiums as a nostalgia act.

Hootie won't be playing stadiums, just arenas and amphitheaters. Playing with the Barenaked Ladies. Not a lot of hits there either. But still a good double bill.

My point is there's a big interest now for the music of the 90s. That seems to be taking away attention from current music. Unless its Maroon 5.

 

[CTListener]

Hootie won't be playing stadiums, just arenas and amphitheaters.

Ah, the summer amphitheater circuit. "If your act is dead, play the sheds," is an expression I recall reading some time ago.

 

[adradio]

I'm thinking KFOG could have carried on this way for several more years...strong biller with local ads., despite declining numbers and aging demographics. San Francisco has a lot more in common with Portland (AAA interest-wise) than Los Angeles.

 

[TheBigA]

I'm thinking KFOG could have carried on this way for several more years...strong biller with local ads., despite declining numbers and aging demographics. San Francisco has a lot more in common with Portland (AAA interest-wise) than Los Angeles.

The changes seemed to coincide with the appointment of a new market manager last year, a veteran of the market, who was charged with getting the cluster back on track.

 

[LKellerIII]

KOIT's HD-2 station has started an AAA format. https://koit.com/96-5-hd2/

AAA could probably still work in SF. Bonneville just acquired KOIT (and a few other SF stations) which was also a surprise, since they have very few radio stations nationwide. They're hardly an iHeartMedia, Cumulus, or Entercom (or even an Alpha). They do have somewhat of a history of AAA. They tried starting The Sound in LA -- didn't stay AAA for long, though they did make it work as a more interesting than average Classic Rock station until it was traded to Entercom and then sold to Christian Radio. I don't see them flipping KOIT, but maybe one of their other frequencies might.

You do know that Bonneville owned KOIT for years, yes? When KOIT was "Light Rock/Less Talk," and at it's most popular. Bonneville also owned 95.7, which they never had success with, and 102.1, which was Classical KDFC for decades. Also 1260 AM, as a KOIT repeater, from the end of it's KYA days until the sale to Immaculate Heart.

IIRC, Entercom owned KOIT for less than 5 years.

Bonneville is not new in Bay Area radio

 

[michael hagerty]

You do know that Bonneville owned KOIT for years, yes? When KOIT was "Light Rock/Less Talk," and at it's most popular. Bonneville also owned 95.7, which they never had success with, and 102.1, which was Classical KDFC for decades. Also 1260 AM, as a KOIT repeater, from the end of it's KYA days until the sale to Immaculate Heart.

IIRC, Entercom owned KOIT for less than 5 years.

Bonneville is not new in Bay Area radio

Llew: Entercom had KOIT for 10 and a half years. Bonneville had it for 32 years before that.

 

[Andy Travis]

RE: KFOG - they stopped being the 1 Triple A in the market (arguably understandable) and became the 2nd Alternative. Original KFOG was, at least a defined product that meant something to a specific though older audience. KFOG 2.0 was the answer to a question the listeners weren't asking. Because Live 105 was already providing the answer.

Cumulus SF hasn't had much success with any of their changes to KFOG or KGO, and I don't see them investing in anything dramatic enough to change the situation much.

Of course, I also find it vexing how Entercom's modern rock station in Kansas City is far more interesting and well branded than their two ALTs in SF and NYC. Two of the most diverse and exciting cities have modern rock stations more generic than in the Midwest.

I happen to believe that there is a niche for AAA because of option overload. Yes, there's more ways to listen to music, and more music that can be streamed. But a lot of it isn't any good. If you want to find the good stuff, curated and connected to your community, the best AAAs are able to do that. But as has been noted, it's not something the major companies are very interested in. The heritage AAAs that remain successful weren't created by Cumulus or iHeart.

 

[TheBigA]

Cumulus SF hasn't had much success with any of their changes to KFOG or KGO, and I don't see them investing in anything dramatic enough to change the situation much.

I agree that they haven't had much success, but I disagree about them investing. They've spent lots of money on people they thought had the pedigree to fix the problems at both stations. Various PDs, on-air talent, and even a new market manager have been brought in. But the results speak for themselves. Maybe it's not a money problem.

I also find it vexing how Entercom's modern rock station in Kansas City is far more interesting and well branded than their two ALTs in SF and NYC.

Entercom isn't a top down company. They leave a lot of local programming decisions to the local markets. So what you're seeing is a PD in KC who understands his market better than the ones in NY or SF.

I happen to believe that there is a niche for AAA because of option overload.

To me, that's not a good enough reason to put a format on the radio. If the music is disjointed without a consensus within the genre and among the musicians, then maybe it's something best done by a personal music device. Because all you end up with is music that's the personal favorite of a programmer, and that means nothing to a mass audience.

 

[Andy Travis]

I agree you can't program a format out of personal favorites, but I'm saying that in some markets, AAA works because there is a group of listeners that values the human connection and feel of a curated mix and being introduced to emerging artists in a specific context. It's what the best noncomms manage to do. As to if there's a commercial version that works outside of very specific, usually progressive markets, it may be that there isn't.

 

[TheBigA]

AAA works because there is a group of listeners that values the human connection and feel of a curated mix and being introduced to emerging artists in a specific context. It's what the best noncomms manage to do.

Maybe, but if it's non-commercial, then those listeners have to be willing to pay for that curated mix, and for the most part, they aren't. The noncom stations that program this format are cutting back on music and replacing it with news because news is fundable.

The AAA audience may be old, but they're not technologically inept. They know how to load their favorite music into a device. They don't need a radio station to curate music for them. So I really question whether this is a viable radio format at this point. There is no "gatekeeper" any more as far as record labels. Music just gets made. Very little of it is properly marketed. Its just thrown out at various streaming sites, as the proverbial needle in a haystack. This is not the way to distribute music. And the end result is music for which there is little or no demand.

 

[Andy Travis]

This is my point though - if all that music is just being "thrown out at various streaming sites" then for the most part, no one is going to listen to it. It has to be introduced, and presented in a context and balance where it will actually get someone's attention. That's what the human element provides.

I'm far from thinking that AAA will ever become massively popular especially in commercial radio. I'm just thinking that its sustainability as a niche is, in part because it tends to emphasize a curated listening experience.

As to "cutting back and replacing with news" - I'm not sure about that. I've seen a number of 2nd services that split news and music, and some additional AAA services. MPR seems to do well with The Current, KEXP moved into a new facility, KUNC launched the Colorado Sound. I'm not seeing where AAA music is getting cut back in favor of news/talk. Seems it's usually jazz that gets the cut first, and classical.

 

[TheBigA]

This is my point though - if all that music is just being "thrown out at various streaming sites" then for the most part, no one is going to listen to it. It has to be introduced, and presented in a context and balance where it will actually get someone's attention. That's what the human element provides.

But what you're talking about is the failure of the music business to do it's job. Radio stations are not part of the music business. They don't benefit financially from certain music getting played and other music getting ignored. That's not their job. Someone in the music industry, whether it's in the artist's team or the label's team or the writer's team, should be providing this context and balance. At one time, that's how things were done. But for the past 25 years or so, it's gone away. Musicians are on their own, with no support structure, to present their own context because there's no one else. Now what I'm saying only applies to genres like AAA and Americana. The larger genres, the ones getting airplay, still have some structure and support. But that doesn't exist for a lot of these indie artists. This is why criticisms of KFOG now vs. how it operated 20 or more years ago are irrelevant. The support structures for the music that existed is now gone, and the internet is part of the reason.

 

[DaveBayArea]

But what you're talking about is the failure of the music business to do it's job. Musicians are on their own, with no support structure, to present their own context because there's no one else. Now what I'm saying only applies to genres like AAA and Americana. This is why criticisms of KFOG now vs. how it operated 20 or more years ago are irrelevant. The support structures for the music that existed is now gone, and the internet is part of the reason.

I'm going to have to agree with Andy Travis here for the exact reasons you mentioned. The major record companies want nothing to do with an artist that's not going to provide whatever profit margin they feel they need. Couple that with the ease with which self-produced recordings can be made today and the proliferation of music that's not really all that challenging and you have a situation where people like us who desire new music have to look to find stuff that would be technically challenging to a high-school music student. But it's out there. In large quantities if you look hard enough. What I've found is that a creative human does a much better job of presenting that music compared to a streaming algorithm. For AAA/Americana I get much more enjoyment listening to WNCW than Spotify. If you happen to be in the mood for a particular genre, a great thing to do is to go to spinitron.com and watch the recent spins. Look for something you're interested in and listen to that station for a while. Chances are whoever is doing the show at that station has something great in store that you've never heard of before. You might even find a station that's so good you'll become a subscriber.

Yes, it's a brave new world and we live in it. As much as we would like KFOG to be back and playing the latest cool new music it's not going to be commercially viable. But it is non-commercially viable, and if you're lucky enough to hear one of these stations over the air and have the ability to support them that's what works in today's age. In the Bay Area I find some great music on KALW, KZSU, KFJC, KKUP, and KPFA. That's just my personal taste, but when I find something I like I vote with a subscription to that station. It still works. Just differently.

Dave B.

 

[david]

But it is non-commercially viable, and if you're lucky enough to hear one of these stations over the air and have the ability to support them that's what works in today's age.

I have not seen "88.5 FM Southern California" in LA/OC (KCSN/KSBR - www.885fm.org) referenced in this thread. SoCal is a market which has had a patchwork of AAA over the years (KNX-FM, KSCA, KACD 103.1, KWSD) and now has a AAA that seems sustainable for the long-term. Much of its existence and success is directly attributable to Sky Daniels, who came to LA with a successful rock based track record in Chicago, and has built a fundamentally strong non-comm AAA (that this poster supports financially too!). Hopefully, SFO/SJO (Nielsen Audio's market #4) will find a non-comm willing to step up and grab this desirable AAA mantle. And here's hoping KFOG finds a model that successfully integrates something from its rock heritage, as opposed to abandoning all vestiges of rock and those legendary call letters.