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As the Earth Turns.

LKellerIII said:
Michael - I recall that in the early 80s in San Francisco, KSFO did a huge TV ad campaign trying to eek the last years out of the MOR format, and you're right - there was a lot of AC (light rock) mixed in. But those commercials were amusing, with "real" middle aged people (actors I'm sure, but you know, balding, overweight) "grooving" to the sounds of KSFO. IIRC, the slogan was "Radio Real Music." I don't recall if the station was still Golden West (Gene Autry) or after. IIRC, the format only lasted a year or two longer, then KSFO became the AM repeater for KYA-FM Oldies.
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Llew, I believe the Golden West sale of KSFO was December of 1983.

What's funny is that, as the Beautiful Music FMs converted to the "Continuous Soft Hits" version of AC, AMs in a lot of cities were getting back to even older music. Looking at the success of KPRZ and KMPC in Los Angeles, as well as KFRC as Magic 61, the 20/20 hindsight smart play would have been for KSFO to go pure standards. If Gene Autry had held onto it, perhaps they would have.

But again, that format was about squeezing as much revenue as possible from a demo the agencies no longer wanted. KMPC (which forced KPRZ out of the format) and KFRC did okay for the first five years or so, but by the early 90s, it was clear that you couldn't run what were then big AMs on the little bit of advertising targeting that audience. KMPC got out in 1992, KFRC in 1993.

Enter Saul Levine (in Southern California) who flipped KGIL from talk to Standards (as KJQI) eight months after KMPC got out. But even Saul, patron saint of lost formats, could only get two and a half years out of it before deciding it couldn't fly. He went back to that well a few times (in between attempts at news, classical, jazz and oldies), but we are, as we've discussed before, running out not only of advertisers willing to pay, but 100-year-olds alive to listen. Which is why Saul's "Unforgettable L.A." is now just an internet stream (ironically still running the IDs as "Unforgettable 1240, KNRY, Monterey" even though that signal switched to the KSUR oldies format earlier this year).

Fact of the matter...it's always been an 18-49 (or 25-54) world. The glory years of KMPC and KSFO were when they were targeting and delivering that demo. When they had to make a music change to do so in the early 70s, it cost them, because the new crop of young adults had been raised on more music and weren't going to sit still for 18 minutes of commercials, two newscasts, lengthy personality talk times and six records an hour...and the older listeners bailed for beautiful music FMs (a lot of those Cadillacs, Lincolns, Chryslers, Buicks, Oldsmobiles and Mercurys the 50-plussers bought in those days had FM receivers in them), which could survive on 50-plus because of the lower cost of automation and---for a while---the creative selling technique of targeting upscale advertisers (Mercedes-Benz, The Wall Street Journal).
 
michael hagerty said:
And, ten or so years ago, those FM ACs re-invented and started playing Katy Perry...because those 35-year-old women had become 60-year-old women.
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Today, we're at a point where AC, Classic Hits, and Classic Rock all could play the same Bon Jovi song at the same time: Livin' On A Prayer.

I can't think of a song that would work out that way between the formats 10 years ago.

If you follow Sean Ross, he speaks of a Mother-Daughter coalition that had formed around the time that Kelly Clarkson came on the scene and pretty much blew up the old way of doing AC radio. Mothers and Daughters were both listening to the same artists, and CHR finally could legitimately chase adults without losing teens; AC radio had no choice but reinvent the format. Over time that's faded and fewer currents are crossing over (and AC in general is playing fewer currents and hanging on to them longer).

But that's what blew up AC. The "Continuous Soft Hits" promise was that we'll never play the noise your kids listen to. Once the audience stopped seeing those songs as noise, you had to change everything.

Anymore, the difference between AC and Classic Hits (outside of the 2 to 4 currents an hour) is AC stations will play more 90s songs than the classic hits station. Both formats are centered in the mid 80s. The token spin of Dancing Queen is all but gone.

What surprises me is that despite the rise of rhythmic CHR in the mid to late 80s and beyond, the songs that seem to endure are mostly pop-rock, which is why Bon Jovi is everywhere. Rhythmic titles don't seem to be as universal.

I'm interested to see how much of the "modern" stuff from the 90s will ultimately stick. Radio pounded the Lillith Fair artists into the ground (and let's face it, some of those records weren't as strong as we pretended they were) but given enough of a rest some of those titles might be playable again someday.
 
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johndavis said:
Today, we're at a point where AC, Classic Hits, and Classic Rock all could play the same Bon Jovi song at the same time: Livin' On A Prayer.

I can't think of a song that would work out that way between the formats 10 years ago.
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Oh, I can - about 100 songs, and they were all 70s "Souldies" - Let's Stay Together by Al Green, I Heard It Through the Grapevine by Marvin Gaye - about 50 others. From the early to late 00s, at least in the Bay Area, these songs were a staple on KOIT (Light Rock), Smooth Jazz KKSF, KBLX (The Quiet Storm), KISQ (Soul Classics), and any form of Classic Hits or Oldies station. Even the urban oriented hits stations like KYLD would throw in some "throwbacks" or whatever they called it at the time.

If Al Green made only a penny from every spin of his biggest hit, he must be the richest preacher in America.
 
johndavis said:
Today, we're at a point where AC, Classic Hits, and Classic Rock all could play the same Bon Jovi song at the same time: Livin' On A Prayer.

I can't think of a song that would work out that way between the formats 10 years ago.

If you follow Sean Ross, he speaks of a Mother-Daughter coalition that had formed around the time that Kelly Clarkson came on the scene and pretty much blew up the old way of doing AC radio. Mothers and Daughters were both listening to the same artists, and CHR finally could legitimately chase adults without losing teens; AC radio had no choice but reinvent the format. Over time that's faded and fewer currents are crossing over (and AC in general is playing fewer currents and hanging on to them longer).

But that's what blew up AC. The "Continuous Soft Hits" promise was that we'll never play the noise your kids listen to. Once the audience stopped seeing those songs as noise, you had to change everything.

Anymore, the difference between AC and Classic Hits (outside of the 2 to 4 currents an hour) is AC stations will play more 90s songs than the classic hits station. Both formats are centered in the mid 80s. The token spin of Dancing Queen is all but gone.

What surprises me is that despite the rise of rhythmic CHR in the mid to late 80s and beyond, the songs that seem to endure are mostly pop-rock, which is why Bon Jovi is everywhere. Rhythmic titles don't seem to be as universal.

I'm interested to see how much of the "modern" stuff from the 90s will ultimately stick. Radio pounded the Lillith Fair artists into the ground (and let's face it, some of those records weren't as strong as we pretended they were) but given enough of a rest some of those titles might be playable again someday.
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True, John.

From about '75 through '82, there were only about six currents from Top 40 that AC wouldn't play. It was the mother-daughter coalition of the time, and the AC stations I programmed got, aimed at 37-year-old adults, also drew teens, especially teen females.

Then MTV came along, Lionel Richie, Olivia Newton-John, Air Supply and Juice Newton were out, David Bowie, Thomas Dolby, Michael Jackson and Prince were in, and AC and Top 40 became very different from each other.
 
LKellerIII said:
Oh, I can - about 100 songs, and they were all 70s "Souldies" - Let's Stay Together by Al Green, I Heard It Through the Grapevine by Marvin Gaye - about 50 others. From the early to late 00s, at least in the Bay Area, these songs were a staple on KOIT (Light Rock), Smooth Jazz KKSF, KBLX (The Quiet Storm), KISQ (Soul Classics), and any form of Classic Hits or Oldies station. Even the urban oriented hits stations like KYLD would throw in some "throwbacks" or whatever they called it at the time.

If Al Green made only a penny from every spin of his biggest hit, he must be the richest preacher in America.
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Llew: What's missing from your equation is Classic Rock...which weren't playing Reverend Al or Motown ten years ago.
 
michael hagerty said:
Llew: What's missing from your equation is Classic Rock...which weren't playing Reverend Al or Motown ten years ago.
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True - that occurred to me, but Motown and soul hits were a staple of most other music formats of the time. Even though I love that music, it used to irritate me. How is The Rubber Band Man "smooth jazz"? I know the "smooth jazz" label played fast and loose with the word "jazz," but come on. One low-powered FM station even tried a World Music format for awhile...out of desperation, I think - and the idea is that you'd get to hear African or Korean pop hits...but it was still 75% Motown/soul from the 70s.

I was in a cubicle at the time where I work, and my coworkers (mostly middle-aged folks) would play different stations - KFRC, KOIT, Kiss-FM, KBLX, KKSF (smooth jazz), so as you walked around the floor you would hear Let's Stay Together 5 times every day. I asked one co-worker if she realized that she was hearing the same 4 dozen songs over and over again every day, and she looked at me like I was nuts. But I probably said it with my grumpy face.
 
LKellerIII said:
One low-powered FM station even tried a World Music format for awhile...out of desperation, I think - and the idea is that you'd get to hear African or Korean pop hits...but it was still 75% Motown/soul from the 70s.
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When XM had a "world music" channel, its playlist was dominated by African and Latin American music, plus an occasional Gipsy Kings or Chieftains track. Asia, Oceania and most of Europe might as well have not existed. There was also a weekly specialty show featuring Native American music. No Motown or soul music, though!
 
LKellerIII said:
True - that occurred to me, but Motown and soul hits were a staple of most other music formats of the time. Even though I love that music, it used to irritate me. How is The Rubber Band Man "smooth jazz"? I know the "smooth jazz" label played fast and loose with the word "jazz," but come on. One low-powered FM station even tried a World Music format for awhile...out of desperation, I think - and the idea is that you'd get to hear African or Korean pop hits...but it was still 75% Motown/soul from the 70s.

I was in a cubicle at the time where I work, and my coworkers (mostly middle-aged folks) would play different stations - KFRC, KOIT, Kiss-FM, KBLX, KKSF (smooth jazz), so as you walked around the floor you would hear Let's Stay Together 5 times every day. I asked one co-worker if she realized that she was hearing the same 4 dozen songs over and over again every day, and she looked at me like I was nuts. But I probably said it with my grumpy face.
Click to expand...

Llew: I had the inclusion of non-jazz oldies in the Smooth Jazz format explained to me by no less than Carol Archer, a former KFRC Music Director, a dear friend and, at the time, the Smooth Jazz editor at Radio & Records. Simply put, those songs were there to catch Oldies, AC and Urban AC listeners when they punched out of their favorite stations. An attempt to broaden the reach of the format that inevitably diluted it.

As for the "hearing the same four dozen songs over and over again"...and the response you got...there's the perfect illustration of what David, BigA and I have been explaining on K-Earth threads for the past decade. The typical listener doesn't keep track. They either like the song or don't. Unless it's an irritant, the repetition doesn't register...just the pleasure of hearing a song they like.
 
michael hagerty said:
As for the "hearing the same four dozen songs over and over again"...and the response you got...there's the perfect illustration of what David, BigA and I have been explaining on K-Earth threads for the past decade. The typical listener doesn't keep track. They either like the song or don't. Unless it's an irritant, the repetition doesn't register...just the pleasure of hearing a song they like.
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The mind boggles at such a lack of awareness.
 
SuperRadioFan said:
How's this one for a total irritant, hearing this line repeated about 16 times in the song--"Your Trojans in my head" Yikes! Yeah that'll get in your head and not in a good way
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Gee Flipper, why are you stuck in past and can't get on with the new alternative scene? What is wrong with you?

Uh-huh.
 
michael hagerty said:
Llew: I had the inclusion of non-jazz oldies in the Smooth Jazz format explained to me by no less than Carol Archer, a former KFRC Music Director, a dear friend and, at the time, the Smooth Jazz editor at Radio & Records. Simply put, those songs were there to catch Oldies, AC and Urban AC listeners when they punched out of their favorite stations. An attempt to broaden the reach of the format that inevitably diluted it.
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Also worth noting that the format was not called "Smooth Jazz" when it started. It was new age and, soon, R&R called it "New Adult Contemporary" or NAC.

The smooth jazz name came about when Pyramid did not want to license "The Wave" when getting ready to launch WNUA in Chicago. They did one-on-one interviews, playing sample pods of the new format. Respondents were asked to describe, in their own words, what they heard. In one interview, a listener said that the music was "... like smooth jazz..."

The perception became reality, as Pyramid adopted that term as its positioner after testing it "in context" with the music. Target listeners liked the term, and found it to be pleasing and somewhat aspirational... not reflective of ordinary radio stations. The word "smooth" nicely justified the generally softer tempo of the station, without saying that it was "mellow" or "soft".

The adoption of the term in Chicago was orchestrated by Owen Leach, co-creator of the original format at KTWV along with Frank Cody and a team of other pros. The name got picked up by other stations and the trades quite quickly.

But the format never set out to be "jazz" at all. It was more Yanni at the beginning in what one consultant dismissed at an NAB AC seminar as "songs you've never heard by artists you've never heard of".
 
michael hagerty said:
Llew: I had the inclusion of non-jazz oldies in the Smooth Jazz format explained to me by no less than Carol Archer, a former KFRC Music Director, a dear friend and, at the time, the Smooth Jazz editor at Radio & Records. Simply put, those songs were there to catch Oldies, AC and Urban AC listeners when they punched out of their favorite stations. An attempt to broaden the reach of the format that inevitably diluted it.

As for the "hearing the same four dozen songs over and over again"...and the response you got...there's the perfect illustration of what David, BigA and I have been explaining on K-Earth threads for the past decade. The typical listener doesn't keep track. They either like the song or don't. Unless it's an irritant, the repetition doesn't register...just the pleasure of hearing a song they like.
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Well, I guess I'm "special" then, and perhaps not in a good way. I think Let's Stay Together is a wonderful, classic song, but I still have no desire to hear it again. Possibly ever...or maybe in another decade. But for me, hearing it probably 1,200 times on radio for a couple of decades burnt it to a crisp for me. Now that I've pretty much given up music radio, and moved to my own playlists and streaming, I even find shuffle on my MP3 player annoying at times. I can't tell you how many times I hit 'skip' because I don't want to hear THAT song again. It's like Mike Phillips (RIP) is controlling the repeat on my shuffle from the nether-world, and only repeating 300 songs. :rolleyes: And my playlist has about 1,800 songs on it.

More and more lately, I listen to classical or jazz on Spotify, and keep switching between playlists.

From a psychological perspective, I have to wonder about the efficacy of a medium to sell products that involves people listening mindlessly. Are they listening to the commercials? Especially when the stop-set is 7 minutes and 12 spots long? Is mindless listening enough to sell a product? Perhaps. But I think if I were an advertiser, I would be more interested in media where people are actually paying attention.
 
LKellerIII said:
Well, I guess I'm "special" then, and perhaps not in a good way. I think Let's Stay Together is a wonderful, classic song, but I still have no desire to hear it again. Possibly ever...or maybe in another decade. But for me, hearing it probably 1,200 times on radio for a couple of decades burnt it to a crisp for me. Now that I've pretty much given up music radio, and moved to my own playlists and streaming, I even find shuffle on my MP3 player annoying at times. I can't tell you how many times I hit 'skip' because I don't want to hear THAT song again. It's like Mike Phillips (RIP) is controlling the repeat on my shuffle from the nether-world, and only repeating 300 songs. :rolleyes: And my playlist has about 1,800 songs on it.

More and more lately, I listen to classical or jazz on Spotify, and keep switching between playlists.

From a psychological perspective, I have to wonder about the efficacy of a medium to sell products that involves people listening mindlessly. Are they listening to the commercials? Especially when the stop-set is 7 minutes and 12 spots long? Is mindless listening enough to sell a product? Perhaps. But I think if I were an advertiser, I would be more interested in media where people are actually paying attention.
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A single exposure to a spot sells nothing. Which is why they buy reach and frequency. Because over time, the mindless listening gets the message in your brain---it's similar to name recognition for candidates.
 
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