Redefining Radio Demos

[TheBigA]

This idea has been discussed a lot. Some view the Nielsen demo categories as dated. Former CBS Radio CEO Dan Mason has a proposal for new demo categories that he says would reflect the new marketplace. In my view, what he proposes might be good for radio, but not advertisers.

Time To Redefine Radio Demos? Dan Mason Has A Proposal For Nielsen.

Dan Mason is currently a partner at Seventy Six Capital but radio remains in his DNA. The former head of CBS Radio says Nielsen should rethink how it carves up

www.insideradio.com

I've read several similar proposals, all from radio people who are of Dan's generation. I'm not seeing many advertisers looking for ways to reach 55+. If they do, they know which radio formats can help them. On the other hand, a lot of radio people would love to find justification for older skewing music formats.

 

[Kelly A]

I've read several similar proposals, all from radio people who are of Dan's generation. I'm not seeing many advertisers looking for ways to reach 55+. If they do, they know which radio formats can help them. On the other hand, a lot of radio people would love to find justification for older skewing music formats.

Exactly. Suggesting Nielsen readjust the demo brackets to fit an older radio listening narrative only helps radio that has lost a younger audience to social media. His suggestion would be better pitched to all the major ad agencies first. They're ultimately the ones who would care.

If I were King, the only thing I would do is eliminate useless 6-12M-F altogether, at least for radio. I'm convinced there's not enough there to even bother trying to count.

 

[TheBigA]

Exactly. Suggesting Nielsen readjust the demo brackets to fit an older radio listening narrative only helps radio that has lost a younger audience to social media. His suggestion would be better pitched to all the major ad agencies first. They're ultimately the ones who would care.

At the same time, subscribers to the Nielsen data can see the 55+ numbers if they want. It's not as though that information doesn't exist. It does. John Sebastian regularly posts that information for KOAI in Phoenix on his Facebook page every month. If other radio people want to do that, they can.

 

[CTListener]

If I were King, the only thing I would do is eliminate useless 6-12M-F altogether, at least for radio. I'm convinced there's not enough there to even bother trying to count.

I don't imagine any advertisers are pushing money toward the kiddie audience, no matter how many children there might be. But unless it's somehow costing Nielsen extra to get 6-12 numbers or unless the kids are somehow skewing the numbers that advertisers/agencies base their buys on, keeping 6-12 as part of the "beauty pageant" ratings doesn't seem objectionable to me.

 

[DavidEduardo]

Exactly. Suggesting Nielsen readjust the demo brackets to fit an older radio listening narrative only helps radio that has lost a younger audience to social media. His suggestion would be better pitched to all the major ad agencies first. They're ultimately the ones who would care.

If I were King, the only thing I would do is eliminate useless 6-12M-F altogether, at least for radio. I'm convinced there's not enough there to even bother trying to count.

Do you mean the 6-12 year olds or 6 AM to 12 Midnight?

 

[Kelly A]

Do you mean the 6-12 year olds or 6 AM to 12 Midnight?

6-12 year old's.

 

[Kelly A]

At the same time, subscribers to the Nielsen data can see the 55+ numbers if they want. It's not as though that information doesn't exist. It does. John Sebastian regularly posts that information for KOAI in Phoenix on his Facebook page every month. If other radio people want to do that, they can.

That's true, but it then becomes demo rankers.

 

[Kelly A]

I don't imagine any advertisers are pushing money toward the kiddie audience, no matter how many children there might be. But unless it's somehow costing Nielsen extra to get 6-12 numbers or unless the kids are somehow skewing the numbers that advertisers/agencies base their buys on, keeping 6-12 as part of the "beauty pageant" ratings doesn't seem objectionable to me.

But that's the thing; radio no longer appeals to pre-teens and teens, so why bother including them? All it does is confuse people who don't understand, or care to understand, where the sought-after demos are.

 

[DavidEduardo]

6-12 year old's.

Back when we were starting the PPM effort around 2002, Nielsen TV was part of the project and 6-12 is core to TV still. And with the still vague plans to consolidate TV, video, radio, streaming and podcasts in one measurement system or "universe" the inclusion of 6 to 12 is important so it won't go away.

 

[TheBigA]

But that's the thing; radio no longer appeals to pre-teens and teens, so why bother including them? All it does is confuse people who don't understand, or care to understand, where the sought-after demos are.

Statistically, you have to include everyone. That's how you do statistics. Then its up to the station sales people to do their own presentation to show how the radio station fits the goals of the advertiser. That's not Nielsen's job.

As for your comment "no longer appeals to pre-teens and teens," I doubt it ever did. Being fair to everyone involved, if teens had the same options in the 60s and 70s that they have now, they would have made the same exact choices that teens make today. The minute teens and 20s had the opportunity to make their own tapes or CDs, and bypass radio, they did.

 

[CTListener]

Statistically, you have to include everyone. That's how you do statistics. Then its up to the station sales people to do their own presentation to show how the radio station fits the goals of the advertiser. That's not Nielsen's job.

As for your comment "no longer appeals to pre-teens and teens," I doubt it ever did.

Not even in the first 30 years of Top 40/CHR? Really? How were teens finding new music in the '50s, '60s and '70s if not through radio? They weren't enjoying what they were hearing? They didn't like those DJs they listened to religiously every night?

 

[TheBigA]

Not even in the first 30 years of Top 40/CHR? Really? How were teens finding new music in the '50s, '60s and '70s if not through radio? They weren't enjoying what they were hearing? They didn't like those DJs they listened to religiously every night?

Every generation uses the technology it has. Teens in the 1940s & 50s were buying records and listening to them in their homes. Record stores in that time had listening booths, where record buyers could preview new records before buying them. Those listening booths were still there until the early 70s. There were early TV shows where the artists performed. Our only videos of Johnny Ray or Bill Haley are from TV apparances in the late 50s. Elvis was on Ed Sullivan. Even Hank Williams, who died in the early 50s, made TV appearances.

Sure some had radio, depending on where they lived. In some places, the shows for young people came on at night. Alan Freed's radio show in Cleveland started at 11PM, and was sponsored by a local record store. Those early DJs were also concert promoters and hosted concerts by the artists of the day. Once again, the goal of all this was to get young people to BUY records. That's not the driving force any more.

The late 60s music explosion coincided with the baby boom coming of age, and conveniently coincided with personal audio technology becoming more portable and affordable. So instead of listening to music on the parent's record player, they could listen to it in their bedroom on their own device. The minute they could, they did. Did they love the DJs? Sure, because those DJs were their only connections to the music they loved. But if there had been other options at the time, they would have taken them.

Today, the goal is to get people to stream the music. Thanks to the DMCA, artists & labels get paid every time someone streams their music. That doesn't happen with radio airplay. So record companies and artists are less motivated to promote music to radio. They'd rather go directly to the consumer. And that's what they do.

 

[michael hagerty]

How were teens finding new music in the '50s, '60s and '70s if not through radio?

I can't speak to the 1950s other than to say American Bandstand went national in 1957 and was on every day for years. A lot of American teens lived in places where they couldn't receive a Top 40 station, except at night. And given that WLS and WABC didn't go Top 40 until 1960, many may have lived in places where even at night, they were unable to hear a Top 40 station.

Bandstand and other music-oriented TV shows (Lloyd Thaxton, Shindig, Hullaballoo, Shivaree, Shebang, and in L.A., 9th Street West, Boss City, Groovy, and The Real Don Steele Show---all KHJ-TV productions) were on the air through the 60s. Rolling Stone magazine was in print from November, 1967 on.

For that matter, Ed Sullivan almost certainly put the Beatles in front of teens across the country whose local radio stations weren't playing them yet.

And in the 70s, pretty much all of those, plus Soul Train, The Midnight Special, ABC's In Concert, and Saturday Night Live.

They weren't enjoying what they were hearing?

TheBigA says it best:

The minute teens and 20s had the opportunity to make their own tapes or CDs, and bypass radio, they did.

They didn't like those DJs they listened to religiously every night?

Some did. Heck, one liked me enough to marry me 36 years later. But I couldn't tell you the number of times I got this on the request line:

"Hi! Could you play (song) in the next 15 minutes, but don't talk over the beginning, okay? I want to tape it."

 

[TheBigA]

"Hi! Could you play (song) in the next 15 minutes, but don't talk over the beginning, okay? I want to tape it."

To the point where congress passed a law mandating a tax on blank recording tape and recording devices to act as a royalty for the music industry. After that, the Digital Music Copyright Act had special provisions in the law designed to prevent home taping of albums from digital radio. Home recording was obviously a big problem for the music industry. People wanted to be able to hear their favorite music when and where they wanted on their own personal devices. All that has led us to where we are today with music streaming.

 

[michael hagerty]

To the point where congress passed a law mandating a tax on blank recording tape and recording devices to act as a royalty for the music industry. After that, the Digital Music Copyright Act had special provisions in the law designed to prevent home taping of albums from digital radio. Home recording was obviously a big problem for the music industry. People wanted to be able to hear their favorite music when and where they wanted on their own personal devices. All that has led us to where we are today with music streaming.

Yep, and the big problem was stations, especially FM stations, tracking entire albums and promoting it in advance. That coincided with people having decent stereos, including cassette recorders.

But even as early as 1971 on underpowered little AM stations, we'd get phone calls from people hoping to get a clean copy of a single by taping it off the radio on battery-operated tape recorders.

My favorites were the ones that I'd humor once with a cold segue who'd call over and over---they were recording by putting a condenser mic next to the speaker of a transistor or table radio----"Can you do it again? My dog barked. My sister wouldn't shut up. The phone rang...."

A lot of trouble to go through to not drop 89 cents on a single, but a lot of 'em did it.

In fact, once I started collecting airchecks in earnest, I was amazed to find how many surviving tapes were made by people who'd roll on a station that played music they mostly liked, and who would hit "pause" when the jock started talking or a song they didn't care for came on. They wanted the music.

 

[frankberry]

But even as early as 1971 on underpowered little AM stations, we'd get phone calls from people hoping to get a clean copy of a single by taping it off the radio on battery-operated tape recorders.

My favorites were the ones that I'd humor once with a cold segue who'd call over and over---they were recording by putting a condenser mic next to the speaker of a transistor or table radio----"Can you do it again? My dog barked. My sister wouldn't shut up. The phone rang...."

A lot of trouble to go through to not drop 89 cents on a single, but a lot of 'em did it.

In fact, once I started collecting airchecks in earnest, I was amazed to find how many surviving tapes were made by people who'd roll on a station that played music they mostly liked, and who would hit "pause" when the jock started talking or a song they didn't care for came on. They wanted the music.

"Go spend a buck and buy the record."

 

[TheBigA]

A lot of trouble to go through to not drop 89 cents on a single, but a lot of 'em did it.

This was at a time when most radio stations had live & local talent. They weren't recording the DJs. They were recording the music.

 

[Huff]

The last major revision of demos occurred in 1977, when Arbitron initiated the ages of 44 and 54 as new breakpoints. This also created the "25-54" cell, which did not exist prior to that point.
Here is a comparison of books from 1976 and 1977 showing the difference between the cell breakouts.
If you wanted to know 18-34, for example, you could manually add the AQH Persons from the 18-24 and 25-34 cells
It seems rather limited in comparison to today's standards, but this was light years ahead of where Pulse and Hooper were in the 50s and 60s, when the only cells were "Men, Women and Children"

 

[AbrahamJSimpson]

Not even in the first 30 years of Top 40/CHR? Really? How were teens finding new music in the '50s, '60s and '70s if not through radio? They weren't enjoying what they were hearing? They didn't like those DJs they listened to religiously every night?

Not like there is ever anything universal, but let's not pretend that just because it was the only option (or perhaps most practical option is better) that there weren't plenty of people who regarded the DJs as an annoyance or just background wallpaper they could do without. We like to romanticize the past; it rarely deserves that.

 

[TheBigA]

The last major revision of demos occurred in 1977, when Arbitron initiated the ages of 44 and 54 as new breakpoints. This also created the "25-54" cell, which did not exist prior to that point.

I don't know if the examples given were real, but it was interesting to see that even in 1977, the share increased as people got older.