AAA on 96.5 HD-2 (KOIT HD-2)

[Radical348]

KOIT's HD-2 station has started an AAA format. https://koit.com/96-5-hd2/

This came as a complete surprise, since AAA stations are disappearing and HD stations are flipping to nationally syndicated streams. We recently lost our AAA station, KFOG when it officially flipped to Alternative. Most AAAs on HD-2 are there because they were formerly on the main signal and got bumped to HD-2, but since that didn't happen with KFOG, I thought AAA was officially dead in this market.

I've been listening to it quite a bit and their playlist isn't too deep, but it is wide. (Meaning I haven't heard anything too unusual yet, but they do have a vast selection of AAA standards.) Many tracks that were big on AAA at some point but aren't heard much outside the format, i.e. Tori Amos - A Sorta Fairytale, Marc Broussard - Home. Lots of 90s to present, some 80s, very few 60s-70s and the ones they do play are by bands/artists that are EXTREMELY recognizable, such as the Rolling Stones or David Bowie. More mainstream leaning than most AAA station's I've heard. Lots of singer-songwriters, not much classic rock. No live DJs but lots of sweepers saying that they're dedicated to the SF Bay Area, as well as pre-recorded clips of people saying the like the Fillmore, practicing yoga in the park, etc. All lip service, but most other HD stations don't even have that.

I'm wondering if this is a "labor of love" for a PD who just really likes AAA music, or if they're planning something bigger with this. AAA could probably still work in SF. Bonneville just acquired KOIT (and a few other SF stations) which was also a surprise, since they have very few radio stations nationwide. They're hardly an iHeartMedia, Cumulus, or Entercom (or even an Alpha). They do have somewhat of a history of AAA. They tried starting The Sound in LA -- didn't stay AAA for long, though they did make it work as a more interesting than average Classic Rock station until it was traded to Entercom and then sold to Christian Radio. I don't see them flipping KOIT, but maybe one of their other frequencies might.

 

[erwin33]

I'm looking for a stream but can't find it. Are they stream?

 

[Michael Rivers Kramer]

KOIT's HD-2 station has started an AAA format. https://koit.com/96-5-hd2/


This came as a complete surprise, since AAA stations are disappearing and HD stations are flipping to nationally syndicated streams. We recently lost our AAA station, KFOG when it officially flipped to Alternative. Most AAAs on HD-2 are there because they were formerly on the main signal and got bumped to HD-2, but since that didn't happen with KFOG, I thought AAA was officially dead in this market.

I've been listening to it quite a bit and their playlist isn't too deep, but it is wide. (Meaning I haven't heard anything too unusual yet, but they do have a vast selection of AAA standards.) Many tracks that were big on AAA at some point but aren't heard much outside the format, i.e. Tori Amos - A Sorta Fairytale, Marc Broussard - Home. Lots of 90s to present, some 80s, very few 60s-70s and the ones they do play are by bands/artists that are EXTREMELY recognizable, such as the Rolling Stones or David Bowie. More mainstream leaning than most AAA station's I've heard. Lots of singer-songwriters, not much classic rock. No live DJs but lots of sweepers saying that they're dedicated to the SF Bay Area, as well as pre-recorded clips of people saying the like the Fillmore, practicing yoga in the park, etc. All lip service, but most other HD stations don't even have that.

I'm wondering if this is a "labor of love" for a PD who just really likes AAA music, or if they're planning something bigger with this. AAA could probably still work in SF. Bonneville just acquired KOIT (and a few other SF stations) which was also a surprise, since they have very few radio stations nationwide. They're hardly an iHeartMedia, Cumulus, or Entercom (or even an Alpha). They do have somewhat of a history of AAA. They tried starting The Sound in LA -- didn't stay AAA for long, though they did make it work as a more interesting than average Classic Rock station until it was traded to Entercom and then sold to Christian Radio. I don't see them flipping KOIT, but maybe one of their other frequencies might.

I don’t see Bonneville flipping and of their stations in SF to AAA anytime soon. It’s sad that KFOG lost their way.

 

[DavidEduardo]

I don’t see Bonneville flipping and of their stations in SF to AAA anytime soon. It’s sad that KFOG lost their way.

The real question is whether KFOG lost its way, or whether the format overall lost its relevance.

Some will say that the format was not correctly executed. I know they did considerable research, and apparently could not find the right formula. Emmis found the same in NYC: a format a good number of people thought would be appealing, but within that group, differing ideas of the ideal blend and, thus, polarization.

Some will say it is due to the overall decline in rock, as evidenced by all kinds of consumption data.

Some will say that AAA never captured younger listeners, and the format aged out.

And some will say that the increasing diversity in America put many at the margins of this mostly white male format; this was among the reasons why KSCA in LA failed as an AAA station (the manager said it was the signal... but that same signal got a 7 share in Spanish).

 

[TheBigA]

I find it interesting that at a time when there are so many ways for people to consume music, and at a time when there are so many people releasing so much diverse music, that there really is no demand for all of the diverse music being produced. When you look at the streaming charts, when you see what people stream the most, it's a very limited list of artists and songs. I don't blame the people for this. They're just seeking out the music they know. The problem is that the music industry and music artists think all they have to do is release their music to Spotify or Amazon or Apple, and everyone will automatically want to hear them. Thy believe that the music itself will create demand. That's not how things work in popular culture.

 

[Radical348]

I'm looking for a stream but can't find it. Are they stream?

Sorry, it looks like they don't have a stream. I'm not sure whether or not they plan to add it in the future.

An update: I'm noticing more and more new wave tracks thrown into the mix. And they're going just a *bit* deeper (i.e. "Walking in LA" from Missing Persons rather than "Words," "All the Things She Said" from Simple Minds rather than "Don't You Forget About Me", etc), although still nothing completely out of left field.

I don’t see Bonneville flipping and of their stations in SF to AAA anytime soon. It’s sad that KFOG lost their way.

Why not?

The real question is whether KFOG lost its way, or whether the format overall lost its relevance.

Some will say that the format was not correctly executed. I know they did considerable research, and apparently could not find the right formula. Emmis found the same in NYC: a format a good number of people thought would be appealing, but within that group, differing ideas of the ideal blend and, thus, polarization.

Some will say it is due to the overall decline in rock, as evidenced by all kinds of consumption data.

Some will say that AAA never captured younger listeners, and the format aged out.

And some will say that the increasing diversity in America put many at the margins of this mostly white male format; this was among the reasons why KSCA in LA failed as an AAA station (the manager said it was the signal... but that same signal got a 7 share in Spanish).

Most of those have probably played a part, though I wouldn't say Cumulus did considerable research to try to make KFOG work so much as they just tried to drive that poor station into the ground (and finally succeeded). Otherwise, there'd have been no reason for letting Dennis Constantine go when he was pulling in high 2's/low 3's, which was as good as it was going to get. Bill Pugh, Jim Richards, Bryan Schock...all completely interchangeable. I suppose the Mat Bates era was an attempt to see if something different worked. And while he really did make the station sound good in my opinion, I think by that time it was just unfortunately too little too late. As for the format losing its relevance...I think it's primarily due to being a non-cookie cutter format that's not easy to automate. More and more stations are becoming automated, adding syndicated shows, using voice tracking, some even going completely jock-less. Many AAA stations had a community aspect (the live sampler CDs which benefitted local charities and were common among AAA stations was a great example of this), which requires real effort on the ground. The execs in Atlanta, Houston, Portland, etc aren't going to want to do that (and who can blame them, when they make just as much money from other stations where they don't have to put in nearly as much effort.)

 

[TheBigA]

As for the format losing its relevance...I think it's primarily due to being a non-cookie cutter format that's not easy to automate. More and more stations are becoming automated, adding syndicated shows, using voice tracking, some even going completely jock-less.

But that's not been the case, especially in San Francisco. In fact, I see more live & local now than ten years ago. What HAS happened is that the music for this format has become more esoteric, and less popular as compared to other genres. The music has moved from major labels to indie labels. When that happens, the budgets become smaller, and the artists get less support. So you end up with a genre of music that's really built around artists who get no TV support, no tour support, and no radio support. This is not to say they're not making great music. But it's not music that can draw an audience to radio stations for the purpose of selling advertising.

I know some people who work in AAA radio, but few of them work for commercial stations. This is primarily, as I've said before, a non-commercial format, similar to classical, jazz, or folk. The audience tends to be VERY loyal and very passionate, but also small and a bit on the old side. I've had many conversations with my friends at these stations, and they tell the vast majority of the money comes from "non-traditional" sources. That would include the example you gave, although there's no money nor much interest in CDs any more, even for this audience. What this station does is station-sponsored trips to exotic places to see this music performed in a kind of mini-festival. Those are very popular, and the station makes money from these kinds of events.

My point here is the problem isn't radio, but more the changes in the music and the audiences it attracts. That's why stations like KFOG have had to make adjustments, to maintain their heritage, but attempt to attract a new and larger audience.

 

[DavidEduardo]

As for the format losing its relevance...I think it's primarily due to being a non-cookie cutter format that's not easy to automate. More and more stations are becoming automated, adding syndicated shows, using voice tracking, some even going completely jock-less. Many AAA stations had a community aspect (the live sampler CDs which benefitted local charities and were common among AAA stations was a great example of this), which requires real effort on the ground. The execs in Atlanta, Houston, Portland, etc aren't going to want to do that (and who can blame them, when they make just as much money from other stations where they don't have to put in nearly as much effort.)

Many of the stations that failed or dropped AAA, such as KSCA in Los Angeles, did so before widespread voice tracking of major market stations became more common.

In the case of KSCA, the station simply failed to garner more than a low one-share. Emmis's attempt in NYC failed, also, due to lack of audience even though the station was live and very locally programmed.

A CD that sells a couple of thousand copies at most is not going to make or break a station... it's the appeal of the music today vs. the music available online. And doing music promotions with CDs in an era of on-demand listening is very old... nearly as old as the listeners.

 

[Radical348]

But that's not been the case, especially in San Francisco. In fact, I see more live & local now than ten years ago. What HAS happened is that the music for this format has become more esoteric, and less popular as compared to other genres. The music has moved from major labels to indie labels. When that happens, the budgets become smaller, and the artists get less support. So you end up with a genre of music that's really built around artists who get no TV support, no tour support, and no radio support. This is not to say they're not making great music. But it's not music that can draw an audience to radio stations for the purpose of selling advertising.

I know some people who work in AAA radio, but few of them work for commercial stations. This is primarily, as I've said before, a non-commercial format, similar to classical, jazz, or folk. The audience tends to be VERY loyal and very passionate, but also small and a bit on the old side. I've had many conversations with my friends at these stations, and they tell the vast majority of the money comes from "non-traditional" sources. That would include the example you gave, although there's no money nor much interest in CDs any more, even for this audience. What this station does is station-sponsored trips to exotic places to see this music performed in a kind of mini-festival. Those are very popular, and the station makes money from these kinds of events.

My point here is the problem isn't radio, but more the changes in the music and the audiences it attracts. That's why stations like KFOG have had to make adjustments, to maintain their heritage, but attempt to attract a new and larger audience.

I'm not sure what live and local stuff you see on commercial radio in SF, but I live here and I see much less of it than 5-10 years ago. But that's a fair point about the music on AAA being more independent. That said, this format has always been a balancing act, and the current state of radio becoming more streamlined and generic, I believe it is making it harder to them to win that balancing act. I would agree that this format works better on non-commercial stations, similar to classical, jazz, and folk.

Many of the stations that failed or dropped AAA, such as KSCA in Los Angeles did so before widespread voice tracking of major market stations became more common.

In the case of KSCA, the station simply failed to garner more than a low one-share. Emmis's attempt in NYC failed, also, due to lack of audience even though the station was live and very locally programmed.

A CD that sells a couple of thousand copies at most is not going to make or break a station... it's the appeal of the music today vs. the music available online.

Sorry but KSCA is a terrible example. LA has never been a great market for AAA and that station lasted what...three years? AAA probably could have worked a bit better in NYC, but even then, that's not that great of a market for AAA (and a prestigious non-comm one, WFUV, already has a lock on it.) But I'm not talking about these trends being the reason for the destruction of fly-by-night AAA stations, I'm talking about these trends being the reason for the destruction of heritage AAA stations, particularly commercial major market ones. (i.e. KFOG/San Francisco, KMTT/Seattle, and I'll include KPRI/San Diego although less heritage than the others.)

I'm not sure what you mean "A CD that sells a couple of thousand copies at most is not going to make or break a station"...nobody said anything close to that. What I did is cite it as one example of the "community" aspect, which commercial radio is getting further and further from especially in major markets.

 

[TheBigA]

That said, this format has always been a balancing act, and the current state of radio becoming more streamlined and generic, I believe it is making it harder to them to win that balancing act. I would agree that this format works better on non-commercial stations, similar to classical, jazz, and folk.

I don't see the change you describe in radio. To me, it's always been about playing popular music, and there have always been a handful of sellable formats. That goes back to the golden age of radio in the 30s and 40s. The ONLY reason commercial radio stations play music at all is to attract an audience that it can sell to advertisers. There is no other reason. So if we're talking about a music that even the major labels can't support, then it's even less likely that it will have an appeal to major radio stations.

 

[DavidEduardo]

Sorry but KSCA is a terrible example. LA has never been a great market for AAA and that station lasted what...three years? AAA probably could have worked a bit better in NYC, but even then, that's not that great of a market for AAA (and a prestigious non-comm one, WFUV, already has a lock on it.) But I'm not talking about these trends being the reason for the destruction of fly-by-night AAA stations, I'm talking about these trends being the reason for the destruction of heritage AAA stations, particularly commercial major market ones. (i.e. KFOG/San Francisco, KMTT/Seattle, and I'll include KPRI/San Diego although less heritage than the others.)

KSCA did a good job at trying. So id Emmis in New York. They could just not assemble a significant cume base in a market as diverse as LA. And in other markets, as the population has become more diverse, AAA has become more fragmented and less relevant to more people.

Look at KINK: 57% of the AQH listening is over 55. They are 6th in a multi-book average in 12+, but in 25-49 they are 15th. The format is aging, and all the efforts of the different heritage stations to keep the format from aging out have failed.

When people can get the music they want on demand, they don't put up with "I like most of the songs" anymore. And AAA is a format that used to appeal to diverse tastes... you liked most of the songs, but not all. And the next listener liked the songs you did not like, some of those that you did like, but not all. Today, that does not work for broadcast radio. It's not baseball where the first two strikes are "on the house". One strike, you are out.

I'm not sure what you mean "A CD that sells a couple of thousand copies at most is not going to make or break a station"...nobody said anything close to that. What I did is cite it as one example of the "community" aspect, which commercial radio is getting further and further from especially in major markets.

"Community" today generally means an online affinity group, and the ability of radio stations to stage promotions, whether CD sales or raft races or whatever is vastly diminished. The era of "your friend on the radio" has been replaced by the era of Facebook groups ant Twitter followers.

When people can get the music they want on demand, they don't put up with stations that consistently play a significant percentage of songs they do not like.

 

[adradio]

Given those number at KINK (Portland), is that station still financially successful? I've always enjoyed listening to them when I'm up there...but then again I'm in the over 55 demo.

 

[DavidEduardo]

Given those number at KINK (Portland), is that station still financially successful? I've always enjoyed listening to them when I'm up there...but then again I'm in the over 55 demo.

It is still a strong biller, ranked third or fourth in revenue, as local accounts don't pay as much attention to ratings and demographics. Obviously, the station works for its a

 

[Radical348]

I don't see the change you describe in radio.

On this I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, although I'm honestly surprised you haven't noticed the change. Dumping local programming for streamlined, generic, national programming has been prevalent on every SF market station I've listened to in some way or other the last few years:

KFOG: Woody Show in the morning, being broadcast from LA. (I know it started on Live 105 years ago, but it's no longer based here, and now it's pretty much a national program.)
Live/Alt 105: Megan Holiday is based in LA and is doing shifts on both KROQ and Live 105. (She was live in studio on Live 105 a few years back, but not any longer. Also, a few years ago they tried beaming up the Kevin & Bean morning show from LA though that didn't work out.)
Mix 106.5: After Alpha took over the station, the long-running Bill & Marla Show (and then Pope & Marla, after Bill sadly passed away) was recently axed for Brooke and Jubal in the morning, syndicated show from Seattle or Portland...somewhere in the PNW, where Alpha is based.
KOSF 103.7 is now iHeart80s Radio--'nuff said.

Also, this isn't on-air, but it is related to losing the "live & local-ness" -- Alice @ 97.3 stopped doing their two signature free shows, Summerthing and Now & Zen (though they're still doing their much smaller, paid show Alice in Winterland), and a few years back KFOG stopped doing their signature KaBoom.

To me, it's always been about playing popular music, and there have always been a handful of sellable formats. That goes back to the golden age of radio in the 30s and 40s. The ONLY reason commercial radio stations play music at all is to attract an audience that it can sell to advertisers. There is no other reason. So if we're talking about a music that even the major labels can't support, then it's even less likely that it will have an appeal to major radio stations.

This part I mostly agree with. In fact I entirely agree with it, I just don't think it's at odds with what I've described. Commercial radio absolutely is about attracting an audience that it can sell to advertisers and has always been. But in the past, before it was so easy to streamline everything and manage it from afar, there was value in for cultivating a loyal following with live & local programming (since stations had to do that to a degree anyway) even if it didn't always play the most popular stuff. That's being crowded out, though I do agree that being unable to attract songs from major labels could also contribute to this.

 

[Radical348]

KSCA did a good job at trying. So id Emmis in New York. They could just not assemble a significant cume base in a market as diverse as LA. And in other markets, as the population has become more diverse, AAA has become more fragmented and less relevant to more people.

Look at KINK: 57% of the AQH listening is over 55. They are 6th in a multi-book average in 12+, but in 25-49 they are 15th. The format is aging, and all the efforts of the different heritage stations to keep the format from aging out have failed.

When people can get the music they want on demand, they don't put up with "I like most of the songs" anymore. And AAA is a format that used to appeal to diverse tastes... you liked most of the songs, but not all. And the next listener liked the songs you did not like, some of those that you did like, but not all. Today, that does not work for broadcast radio. It's not baseball where the first two strikes are "on the house". One strike, you are out.

Like I said, KSCA is a terrible example. It lasted a grand total of three years and died in 1997 which was over 20 years ago. It's completely irrelevant to the current trends.

"Community" today generally means an online affinity group, and the ability of radio stations to stage promotions, whether CD sales or raft races or whatever is vastly diminished. The era of "your friend on the radio" has been replaced by the era of Facebook groups ant Twitter followers.

When people can get the music they want on demand, they don't put up with stations that consistently play a significant percentage of songs they do not like.

Well yeah, the community aspect is becoming less and less relevant which I said is one of the things that has hurt AAA. "I like most of the songs" + strong community was sellable for awhile.

 

[TheBigA]

Dumping local programming for streamlined, generic, national programming has been prevalent on every SF market station I've listened to in some way or other the last few years:

Last time I checked, there are a lot more that four radio stations in San Francisco, and most of them are more popular than the four you list. In fact those four are among the lowest rated stations in town. I'd suggest the use of syndication is more a function of revenue than symptomatic of radio in general. The highest rated station on your list is KOSF. The other three are 1 share stations, with fewer listeners then KGO-AM. Hiring live staff costs money, and few listeners mean few dollars for staff. And let's face it, the live & local morning show never helped KFOG, did it?

 

[TheBigA]

But in the past, before it was so easy to streamline everything and manage it from afar, there was value in for cultivating a loyal following with live & local programming (since stations had to do that to a degree anyway) even if it didn't always play the most popular stuff. That's being crowded out, though I do agree that being unable to attract songs from major labels could also contribute to this.

Unfortunately it's all part of the money situation again. It's hurt the music industry, forcing major labels to drop risky artists. It's hurt the radio industry. What we find is that audiences for alternative music aren't necessarily fans of the genre, but fans of specific bands or artists. If the stations they listen to don't play those bands, they seek them out elsewhere. Internet-based music platforms are generally national, and they can spread out their expenses over multiple channels. So this kind of music tends to work better where listeners can pick and choose what they hear. That's why I say it's not a function of radio's ability to streamline or manage from afar. That ability has existed since the 1920s. It's more a function of the most efficient way to reach a particular audience given the diminishing size and value.

 

[Radical348]

Last time I checked, there are a lot more that four radio stations in San Francisco, and most of them are more popular than the four you list. In fact those four are among the lowest rated stations in town. I'd suggest the use of syndication is more a function of revenue than symptomatic of radio in general. The highest rated station on your list is KOSF. The other three are 1 share stations, with fewer listeners then KGO-AM. Hiring live staff costs money, and few listeners mean few dollars for staff. And let's face it, the live & local morning show never helped KFOG, did it?

I find it unlikely that this trend affects 100% of the stations I listen to but none of the other ones. Although I don't listen to AM, so maybe the situation is different than FM. Anyway, KEZR is 1-share in the entire SF market but they are concentrated in the South Bay/San Jose, where it has a 5+ share: https://ratings.radio-online.com/cgi-bin/rol.exe/arb215

Ehh, not true about the KFOG morning show. The live and local morning show was popular when Dave Morey was at the helm. After he retired, they were never able to (or didn't care to) find anyone interesting to replace him.

 

[DavidEduardo]

Like I said, KSCA is a terrible example. It lasted a grand total of three years and died in 1997 which was over 20 years ago. It's completely irrelevant to the current trends.

KSCA is relevant. So is the Emmis WRXP experiment 10 years or so later.

They both prove that, for the last 25 years, it has not been possible to launch a successful new AAA station in the US. And those experiences are why no owner is going to consider it for a full signal facility today.

If you look at studies, like the Edison decade study, you can see that rock, in all its forms, attracts an ever-smaller percentage of the population.

Well yeah, the community aspect is becoming less and less relevant which I said is one of the things that has hurt AAA. "I like most of the songs" + strong community was sellable for awhile.

What was sellable to advertisers was AQH audience. When the number of people declined, such stations got on fewer and fewer buys.

Music selection and community promotions and activities are not what makes for a ratings-based ad buy. In the era of programatic buying, that stuff is not even looked at.

The problem is in the overall appeal of the music. Labels, as BigA says, are not behind it as they once were. Fewer listeners seek it. And the listeners that do come are older.

And listeners now don't have to put up with stations that play songs they don't like.

KINK, one of the best heritage stations, is now 15th in 25-49, but 4th in 55+. KBCO in Denver is about the only exception, still #2 in billings in the market and in the top 5 stations in 25-54.

 

[DavidEduardo]

Also, this isn't on-air, but it is related to losing the "live & local-ness" -- Alice @ 97.3 stopped doing their two signature free shows, Summerthing and Now & Zen (though they're still doing their much smaller, paid show Alice in Winterland), and a few years back KFOG stopped doing their signature KaBoom.
.

That is not this or any other station's fault.

It's the state of the music industry that has changed.

Labels, which used to give us artists for events, let us use artist songs in TV spots and the like, and give us product to give away now charge for using talent in station TV and billboard campaigns, don't give product, and let artist management tell us "no way" for live shows.

That's why groups like iHeart have national shows... the only way to attract talent and to make money. A few events still endure, such as the Weenie Roast at KROQ, but they are scaled back in general.