Where Do Oldies Stations' Music Libraries Go When They're Defunct?

[AMRadioGuy]

Who sold the records to the store? The station or an employee? If it was an employee, he has stolen station property.

The particular case in the story was a music critic, apparently self-employed. That's a different situation.

The Goodwill situation is also different because it was originally purchased. Not a gift.



This is why artists prefer the current situation where there is no physical product, and they get paid every time someone streams their song.

I work for a group of stations. They (station ownership) gave me all of their remaining 45s, many of them promos marked "Not For Sale." If they are not actually allowed to be sold, that would be because the record label still owns them. The law is pretty clear that you can do what you would like with property you own. They were the property of the radio station.
Some of those promo 45s I got have some decent value. Is it unethical for me to sell them?

In another case, I actually bought a few hundred promo 45s, directly from the owner of a radio station. Once again, those 45s were his property.

Many radio stations also gave away promo 45s and albums in all kinds of contests. Was that unethical? And if you won one of those albums from a station back in 1972, is it unethical to sell it now?

And if it's about artists getting a cut, is it unethical to sell any cutouts in your collection (because the artist didn't get any money for it at all, and depending on the label, got totally screwed as a result of other shady practices relating to cutouts)...

 

[TheBigA]

I work for a group of stations. They (station ownership) gave me all of their remaining 45s, many of them promos marked "Not For Sale."

When they gave them to you, did they provide a receipt? Did you get a value on the gift? Pay tax on that gift?

Was that unethical? And if you won one of those albums from a station back in 1972, is it unethical to sell it now?

Ethics are subjective. The relationship between a fan and an artist isn't a legal one. How does a fan convey their support to their artist? Just playing the music at home doesn't convey support. It merely provides personal pleasure. The support comes in buying the music, and having that purchase price convey to the artist. Anything outside that is outside the area of being a music fan.

 

[AMRadioGuy]

When they gave them to you, did they provide a receipt? Did you get a value on the gift? Pay tax on that gift?



Ethics are subjective. The relationship between a fan and an artist isn't a legal one. How does a fan convey their support to their artist? Just playing the music at home doesn't convey support. It merely provides personal pleasure. The support comes in buying the music, and having that purchase price convey to the artist. Anything outside that is outside the area of being a music fan.

Ahh, that's what I was getting at. Ethics are indeed subjective.

There are many other ways to support an artist than directly through the purchase of music. Lest we forget that radio stations have basically gotten a free lunch on the music they've played for the better part of a century - it was provided as promos from labels and only songwriting royalties were paid. They "supported" the artist through airplay. You could "support" an artist by turning a friend on to their music, which is essentially what radio stations do.

And as I had said earlier, purchasing music used does not support an artist at all, by your definition. Sure, it was purchased originally, but what if it was purchased as a cutout so the artist got no money from that sale? And... if there was no value to the artist/label giving away 45s for free... why did they? Why not just make the radio stations pay for the 45s in the first place? I'd argue that a promo 45 sent to WABC in 1964 that made it on the air provided a ton more value to an artist than a dozen purchased in a record store...

As far as a receipt... no, I did not get one. Nor do I have receipts for 99% of the records in my collection. That doesn't mean they aren't mine. There's no way those 45s were worth more than the $17,000 tax exclusion for gifts, either.

 

[TheBigA]

Lest we forget that radio stations have basically gotten a free lunch on the music they've played for the better part of a century - it was provided as promos from labels and only songwriting royalties were paid.

That was the choice of record labels and artists. They had the opportunity to lobby congress for a royalty in the 1930s, and they chose not to. Once they changed their minds, it was too late. Radio stations have followed the laws. Artists understand the law too, and they started writing songs (or putting their names on songs) to collect the songwriting royalty. Nobody objects to that. Today radio stations pay performance royalties for the right to play music. How it's disbursed is up to the PROs.

And as I had said earlier, purchasing music used does not support an artist at all, by your definition.

It's not MY definition. It's the artist's definition. They're the ones who make the music, and they're the ones with the contract. You don't have a contract, and you don't have a receipt. So it's as I say outside the area of being a fan. It doesn't count. There's nothing tangible for the artist. That's why I bring up ethics. If you feel comfortable getting pleasure from something where the creator got nothing, then that's up to you. No one's going to arrest you.

 

[AMRadioGuy]

That was the choice of record labels and artists. They had the opportunity to lobby congress for a royalty in the 1930s, and they chose not to. Once they changed their minds, it was too late. Radio stations have followed the laws. Artists understand the law too, and they started writing songs (or putting their names on songs) to collect the songwriting royalty. Nobody objects to that. Today radio stations pay performance royalties for the right to play music. How it's disbursed is up to the PROs.



It's not MY definition. It's the artist's definition. They're the ones who make the music, and they're the ones with the contract. You don't have a contract, and you don't have a receipt. So it's as I say outside the area of being a fan. It doesn't count. There's nothing tangible for the artist. That's why I bring up ethics. If you feel comfortable getting pleasure from something where the creator got nothing, then that's up to you. No one's going to arrest you.

Sure, the artists have a contract. And part of that contract is that the record label can give away promotional 45s... That's my whole point. It's not like the artist is opposed to those 45s being given out. You keep arguing that radio stations are following the law (and you are right - they do). The law is clear that promotional 45s are no different than stock copies from a legal perspective. Artists agree that their labels can give out promotional 45s knowing full well that they are the same thing from a legal perspective as a stock copy.

And the artist did get something for that promotional 45. They got airplay and likely a lot of increased sales. Sure, they might not have directly gotten paid for it, but that's the status quo for many promotional things.

I don't see how having a receipt has anything to do with it - at all. I've purchased many stock 45s second hand over the years I don't have a receipt for, either. Not sure how that makes me an illegitimate owner or makes my ownership of those 45s not count...

 

[TheBigA]

Sure, the artists have a contract. And part of that contract is that the record label can give away promotional 45s... That's my whole point.

I'm talking about the role of the fan, and how I find it hard to call someone a music fan if they get their music in such a way that leaves the artist out. This is the choice of the fan. The fan can behave like a fan or not. It's up to the so-called fan.

Not sure how that makes me an illegitimate owner or makes my ownership of those 45s not count...

Justify it any way you want, in any way that makes you feel comfortable. Just don't say you did it as a music fan.

 

[kevtronics]

If the record companies had their way, then all sales of used records would've been illegal, if they didn't get their chance to double-dip -- not just promo records.

 

[AMRadioGuy]

I'm talking about the role of the fan, and how I find it hard to call someone a music fan if they get their music in such a way that leaves the artist out. This is the choice of the fan. The fan can behave like a fan or not. It's up to the so-called fan.



Justify it any way you want, in any way that makes you feel comfortable. Just don't say you did it as a music fan.

I think at this point we just need to agree to disagree...

If the record companies had their way, then all sales of used records would've been illegal, if they didn't get their chance to double-dip -- not just promo records.

You're correct here and it was tried actually - some old 78s have resale prices on them and others that say they could not be resold. Of course, this is a silly notion and the courts quickly tossed it out.