Talk Radio Scoreboard for Large Markets: June 2014

[L Chanon Gade]

"I realize that they needed more money in that year, which is why I sourced my reference. But the fact that government provided so much money to a station that only reaches a small percentage of residents of the NYC area does make one wonder about the excesses of 31 studios and 70,000 square feet of space."

To some extent I agree. The reasons given were that WNYC was to be the production/origination point for NPR-PRI and others in the New York market.



"I would not use the word "shame" as I have seen many state run broadcasters in Europe where expenses are high and audiences are often low. It is easy to be grandiose when on the public teat, and WNYC sounds like it is overfunded, overstaffed and a bit of an anachronism. "

And I would not make such a comparison. Frankly, I'm surprised that you would either. The European State-Casters (Asian ones too) derive their total budgets from "extracted sources" -taxes. WNYC and all other Public Broadcasters who are not school affiliated, derive the vast majority of their funds from US -the listeners and corporate underwriters. If we don't like what is going-on we have an easy way to reign it in.



"I've never ever heard that in 55 years in radio. And I have worked with a variety of non-commercial broadcasters over that time. In truth, I believe most of us in the commercial radio world think that, if anything, non-coms tend to sever the older demos that commercial stations can't make money serving."

David, I'm nearly 58 years old and have listened to radio since 1961. The spot loads on the only commercial stations I listen to (WCBS-am and WINS) are much worse than even a decade ago. Even the people I know in the industry here in town will tell you this is true. In some operations it is debt service, on others it is just milking what they can from declining spot rates and aging demos. It is a vicious cycle that is damaging the industry.



"Most of us wish we could deal with fewer commercials but the reality of commercial radio does not permit that."

I don't doubt that. I am sure it is frustrating to have a show torn to bits and real news trivialized by constant interruption. That is why stations like WNYC are important to the future of the medium.

Chan/NYC

 

[L Chanon Gade]

No, you called people in the part of the country that make your very life possible "rubes". Without those "rubes" you wouldn't have food. You wouldn't have clothing, and you wouldn't have power to run the computer you use to post your hateful venom on this board. When you wake up in the morning you should thank your lucky stars that those "rubes" are there, because without them you would have NOTHING.

Oh, s-can the righteous indignation. The shows I "hate" are those the tell lies and pander to fears and prejudices of people. You know what these hosts, and possibly you, are doing. It is coming to an end. That end will visit you too.

Chan.

 

[FredLeonard]

No, you called people in the part of the country that make your very life possible "rubes". Without those "rubes" you wouldn't have food. You wouldn't have clothing, and you wouldn't have power to run the computer you use to post your hateful venom on this board. When you wake up in the morning you should thank your lucky stars that those "rubes" are there, because without them you would have NOTHING.

And many - if not most - of the people who grow your food are the ones you call "illegal" and want to ship out of the country.

 

[boombox4]

It's all coming to an end, eventually. Even NPR. There are increasing numbers of young people that don't know what a 'radio' is.

It's like the great newspapers. Most of them are in the largest metros, and most of them are not conservative at all -- yet they have abysmal and dwindling circulation numbers, and are slowly disappearing.

Technology is changing the way people get their entertainment and information.

 

[FredLeonard]

I: Don't forget, the New York metro has more "rubes" than any place else in the country. There are a few rube-free zones (Upper East Side, Upper West Side, the Village, the Heights Park Slope...) but the rest has more rubes per square mile than you'll find in the sticks. Add in Jersey and of course, Long Island.

Money demo rubes are too busy doing those unskilled, labor intensive, blue collar jobs SMG exalts to listen to Rush all day. So that leaves the angry old White guy geezers to shout "mega-dittos" at the radio. Problem probably is these semi-senile dummies may have forgotten how to change the station on their old AM radios with an actual dial and a knob you have to jiggle to actually find the station. Rush is still somewhere between 7 and 8 on the dial, so it shouldn't be that difficult but ....

I wonder how the rubes coped in 1941 when everything moved.

 

[Small Market Guy]

And many - if not most - of the people who grow your food are the ones you call "illegal" and want to ship out of the country.

They're the ones that pick it. And you have no idea what my stand on illegals is.

I guess I could tell you. It's not feasible to deport 15 million people. Impossible.

Make the border more secure, deport the people we have in custody and the ones not in custody can get guest worker status. That seems like a fair solution that's doable, no?

 

[Small Market Guy]

It's all coming to an end, eventually. Even NPR. There are increasing numbers of young people that don't know what a 'radio' is.

And the ones that do are bored by the presentation.

ALL formats of radio are stale. It's not a unique problem to talk.

The lack of a farm system for syndicated hosts, and lazy decisions to hire non-radio people just because they have a "name brand" is the real problem with talk. It isn't which side of the aisle the shows lean to. It's a lack of new and good talent. When was the last time a successful syndicated talk show of ANY sort (except sports talk) launched? Mark Levin? And he was abysmal for a long time. I'll give him credit, he's actually taken the time to learn how to do the job, but he shouldn't have been given the slot that he was.

 

[TheBigA]

The lack of a farm system for syndicated hosts,

I hear this all the time, usually from people who are IN the farm system, but don't know it. Anyone who isn't already syndicated is in the farm system. Especially if you happen to work for a major owner, like the guys at WLW Cincinnati or KFI Los Angeles. But when the KFI guys got used on WOR, it was poo-poo'd as syndication on the cheap. So they stay in LA. They're not complaining. They're stars in the #2 market in the USA. Same thing with Cumulus. Right now, they're trying out guys in DC and Atlanta, and they may get syndicated elsewhere. And when that happens, you'll hear the same complaining about how they're killing local jobs and doing radio on the cheap. It's one or the other. Either you want local radio to work like a farm system, or you don't.

 

[FredLeonard]

I hear this all the time, usually from people who are IN the farm system, but don't know it. Anyone who isn't already syndicated is in the farm system. Especially if you happen to work for a major owner, like the guys at WLW Cincinnati or KFI Los Angeles. But when the KFI guys got used on WOR, it was poo-poo'd as syndication on the cheap. So they stay in LA. They're not complaining. They're stars in the #2 market in the USA. Same thing with Cumulus. Right now, they're trying out guys in DC and Atlanta, and they may get syndicated elsewhere. And when that happens, you'll hear the same complaining about how they're killing local jobs and doing radio on the cheap. It's one or the other. Either you want local radio to work like a farm system, or you don't.

It's a really sad state of affairs when two major markets are called the "farm system." Major markets used to be "the majors." Kids dreamed of getting to some of the once legendary stations there and once they got there, if they made the grade, they stayed. Before talk radio got into its present sorry state, top rated hosts in major markets got more cume than most syndicated hosts get.

 

[TheBigA]

It's a really sad state of affairs when two major markets are called the "farm system."

I just picked two major market stations. There are about 2000 news talk stations in the country. LOTS of them are filled with local hosts. For a long time, New Jersey 101.5 was the farm system because it was so close and successful. In another thread, I mentioned Rochester's WHAM. A lot of the talent at these smaller local stations are getting paid good money, and have no real reason to uproot themselves and families to move to New York for syndication. So they stay on the farm.

One of the problems isn't the lack of a farm system, but the lack of originality. That's a different problem. Two guys just left WBT Charlotte, complaining about the "cesspool" of talk radio. That's their word, not mine. They claim they aren't willing to do what talk radio wants. But I really believe that with the latest trend of talk on the wane, that a lot of stations are really looking for something new and different. Two years ago, they had no real motivation to try something new. Now they do.

 

[Goat Rodeo Cowboy]

The fact that they can grow corn and wheat doesn't make them any less rube-like.

I grew up on a farm back in the day that maybe a large percentage of the actual farmers were a bit more "rube like".

Have you priced a tractor lately like they plow the wheat ground with? Have you priced a combine lately that they harvest the wheat with?

When you go down to the John Deere dealership and watch the folks making deals for machines in the $220,000 to $600,000 dollar price range... people who can walk through the door and make purchases like that are not what I picture when the word "rube" is used.

Track down the agriculture markets and figure out the price of the average cow tromping through the pasture. My brother-in-law died recently and I was wondering: what kind of financial shape did he leave my sister in? Well, she told me she now owns 137 head of COWS and another 60 or 70 calves. Do the math. And she lives in a place where you might expect to find a good number of "rubes" driving the pick-up trucks.

A couuple of years ago I woke up in time to get the farm commentator on WGN our of Chicago doing his 5 A.M. report. He was down and Galesburg, IL and had spent several days tracking down farmers to grow what you and I eat. It was Winter-time and the folks he was interviewing were explaining the "education seminars" they were getting ready to attend. it's cold in the winter in Illinois so they were cruising down to South America to spend 6 weeks visiting farms at work... comparing notes with those people on how to get more productivity from the land.

How many "rubes" do you know who can spend 6 to 8 weeks on a cruise and seminar trip?

We all know RADIO has changed a lot in the last 60 years. Some of us DON'T know that growing your wheat and beef and "harvesting" you coal to generate electricity have probably had even BIGGER changes than radio.

There is more to fly-over country than coyotes, tumbleweeds and prairie grass.

 

[Avid Listener]

The dictionary defines "rube" as "An unsophisticated country person". Sophistication is not the same as knowledge. So, to me, a "rube" is someone who is not well versed in certain aspects of contemporary culture. Such a person might be extremely knowledgeable to the point of unchallenged expertise on his particular career speciality. That doesn't mean that he isn't a "rube" when it comes to matters unrelated to his career. One could say that a "rube" is the rural equivalent of the urban "nerd". Possibly an expert on many things, but not sophisticated.

I just spent 45 minutes waiting at a garage for the manager to return from an errand so that I could pay my repair bill. The mechanic who did the work, and who knew more about the workings of an internal combustion engine than I could ever hope to learn if I studied for months didn't know how to operate the company's billing computer. He was an expert at what he knew, but a "rube" at what he didn't know.

I fear too many people from big cities equate "sophistication" with "knowledge".

 

[vchimpanzee]

This has somehow wandered off topic.

My adult standards station has the continuing adventures of two rubes.

"They ain't nothin' wrong with it. It just won't start."

"Well, somethin's wrong with it. Get yourself over to [name of business] and if they cain't fix it they'll set you up with a goodurn."

Sounds like it belongs on classic county radio, but this is what we've got.

 

[umfan]

Only a fool, or someone otherwise upset would've described such a large group of people in such a way. I'll give Chan the benefit of the doubt in that he was ticked off when he made that comment.

This started as a thread reporting the recent ratings for News/Talk stations. Nothing has changed in the current trend. The format remains viable, but with a declining listener base and less favorable demos. This isn't likely to change. Why there is so much vitrol on this point surprises me.

 

[Avid Listener]

The format remains viable, but with a declining listener base and less favorable demos. This isn't likely to change. Why there is so much vitrol on this point surprises me.

The format lives or dies on the perceptions of potential listeners. And, though people don't like to admit it, news/talk radio might not change the minds of people who are already convinced of the opposite of what the host believes, there are some "undecideds" in the middle who are swayed into taking a stand. And, there is a great deal of "energizing the base" of those who agree with the hosts. That process increases voter turnout and helps candidates get elected. So, people who oppose the political perspective of certain news/talk hosts see those hosts as enemies to be defeated or at least marginalized. That's why there is so much vitriol.

I'm surprised that so many people are so opposed to lively, passionate discussions, preferring mamby-pamby chit-chat over what cable systems are cursed, or other such inane time wasting.

 

[TheBigA]

So, people who oppose the political perspective of certain news/talk hosts see those hosts as enemies to be defeated or at least marginalized. That's why there is so much vitriol.

That's what happens when the host is more important than the issue being discussed. He overshadows everything, and the real story gets lost.

 

[Small Market Guy]

The majority of young people getting into farming these days have advanced degrees in Ag Business or some sort of biology, depending on if it's livestock or plant farming. My kid is getting an Ag Business degree. Trust me, the average farmer is more educated than the average sophisticated "big city" worker drone.

Anyone who thinks that farmers are "rubes" is absolutely ignorant of modern farming.

 

[L Chanon Gade]

The format lives or dies on the perceptions of potential listeners. And, though people don't like to admit it, news/talk radio might not change the minds of people who are already convinced of the opposite of what the host believes, there are some "undecideds" in the middle who are swayed into taking a stand. And, there is a great deal of "energizing the base" of those who agree with the hosts. That process increases voter turnout and helps candidates get elected. So, people who oppose the political perspective of certain news/talk hosts see those hosts as enemies to be defeated or at least marginalized. That's why there is so much vitriol.

I'm surprised that so many people are so opposed to lively, passionate discussions, preferring mamby-pamby chit-chat over what cable systems are cursed, or other such inane time wasting.

In the case of commercial "news-talk" -we aren't talking about lively-passionate. What most of these characters put out comes right to the border of bigotry and sedition.

That isn't conservatism -it is cynical manipulation (though the two are often conjoined) for the purpose of getting ignorant people to vote for specific candidates. Those politicians generally do NOT have the interest of the average American in-mind.

One interesting byproduct of the advertisers cutback or boycott of this type of programming has been to smoke-out shady types and their front organizations. The Kochs, Adelson, Rove and similar crud have their front org.s buying spots to run propaganda messages. We'll see how long that lasts.

One bright spot here, Mother Nature is solving this problem in it's usual relentless fashion.

Chan/NYC

 

[Avid Listener]

Anyone who thinks that farmers are "rubes" is absolutely ignorant of modern farming.

Sorry, that was already covered. Sophisticated isn't the same as knowledgeable. A "rube" is someone who is not well versed in certain aspects of contemporary culture. Such a person might be extremely knowledgeable to the point of unchallenged expertise on his particular career speciality. That doesn't mean that he isn't a "rube" when it comes to matters unrelated to his career. One could say that a "rube" is the rural equivalent of the urban "nerd". Possibly an expert on many things, but not sophisticated.

A farmer might now how to fill the nation's tables with food. That's an indication of possessing a lot of knowledge. But if he doesn't know which fork to use at a formal dinner party (or doesn't care which fork to use), then he's "unsophisticated". Personally, I don't think sophistication is all that big a deal. But "sophistication" with "knowledge" are two different things.

 

[Small Market Guy]

A farmer might now how to fill the nation's tables with food. That's an indication of possessing a lot of knowledge. But if he doesn't know which fork to use at a formal dinner party (or doesn't care which fork to use), then he's "unsophisticated". Personally, I don't think sophistication is all that big a deal. But "sophistication" with "knowledge" are two different things.

And those farmers are just as "sophisticated" as the average guy who works in a call center in Boston or a coffee shop in Brooklyn. There's this little thing called the Internet that almost everyone has. It's not like people who live in the "sticks" haven't seen what life in the big city is all about.

And I'd love to put 100 people from my little city up against 100 people from the Bronx and see how many of them know which forks to use for which courses. I guarantee my guys would win.