Single Edits vs Album Versions

[Oldbones]

There are actually some stations that play "Heartbreaker" without "Living Loving Maid" - that grinds my gears... Same for truncated versions of "Frankenstein", "Magic Man" and "Sweet Home Alabama" (usually on country stations).

I recall hearing "Living Loving Maid" without Heartbreaker back in the day (it was the B side of the "Whole Lotta Love" 45), but never the other way around nor have I heard it since.

Are you saying someone actually plays the promo edit of "Magic Man" (where it fades just before the bridge) these days? Please tell me it's some barely-making-it 1000W AM in East Broomstick somewhere that only has the original promo 45 (and as I recall, even that had the long version on the other side). I can't imagine anyone else playing that version. Even the store copies of the 45 had the long version.

 

[BenTehelenbach]

Someone who reads this board might know the answer to this: Are the full-length versions of "Don't Fear the Reaper" and "All Right Now" afterthoughts a la "Crimson and Clover?" They sure sound like it. "All Right Now," as I remember, had a shortened retail 45 version (I originally thought this was the "album" version) and an even shorter radio promo version.

 

[ARDONAVINDA]

I'm enjoying reading all these responses, some edits I knew but there were some I didn't know about. As big of a TJ & Shondells fan as I am, I was unaware of the Add In to C & C being an after thought, I just assumed it was a long version that had been edited for single release. I never cared much for the long version, didn't like that cry baby guitar (wa wa wa wa wa) thought it sounded silly, even as a kid( sorry TJ ) at the oldies stations that I was music director for I always added the single edit of C & C, mostly because the greatest hits compilation that Rhino put out in 90 only had the 45 edit. That's the version I always played. As a side note, does anyone remember "Sugar On Sunday"? Song was written by Tommy James, the Shondells recorded it, but The Clique had the radio hit with it. I love the Cliques's version better as well. I have a near mint clean stereo LP Clique album version that I think is the same as the mono White Whale 45. RCA, & Electra were the two first labels to release a 45 in stereo in the late 60's. Electra may have actually beaten RCA to the punch with The Doors "Hello I Love You" 1968 all the RCA 45's were in stereo by 1969. I do have a 1968 DJ copy of The Monkees D.W. Washburn in stereo which was Colgems (RCA). And in 1971 there were still a few labels that were not yet stereo like Atlantic records, Columbia or ABC Dunhill. 3 Dog Night's first stereo 45 debut was "Old Fashioned Love Song" even though the label does not read stereo on it. You can hear the seperation.

Getting back to edits one of the worst I've heard is "Beginnings" as someone else pointed out in an earlier reply, I can't believe the parts they decided to take the blade to. ??? I have a original 45 Columbia copy. There has since been a much cleaner probably digital edit that follows suit to the 45 version that I've added at the radio station. It is not on that Rhino 2 disc CD. I got mine from Tom Kent. He sent me his copy. It has a short talk up intro,:06 I believe with a total of around 3:50. And if you're doing a classic T-40 or gold format you really don't need the over 6 min version with all that percussive stuff anyway the meat of the song is still there IMO. I guess it was said best early on as well that it depends on what format you are re-creating if it's classic rock you wouldn't play anything other than the album version, Classic Top 40 you'd play the single edits. I've always liked both long and short of "Nights In White" we mostly play the 45 edit but sometimes for flavor we'll play the long "Breathe Deep" version. For classic rock I'd play Guess Who's "No Sugar/New Mother Nature" Oldies the 1:50 "No Sugar" Never should radio play 45 edit of "American Pie" you feel jyped, or "We Will Rock You". Our sister station which is classic rock does play the 45 edit of IN-A-GODDA-DA-VIDA that clocks in at just over 3:20, the 17:00 is just to damn long for radio play at all anymore, same with the 13:00 minute version of Frampton, ours is 7 some minutes, and still plays well. Never heard a short version of "Papa Was A Rolling Stone" even my original 1972 Gordy 45 is 7 minutes long! I'm sure there are more examples that you guys will think of. Thank You

 

[Inventor989]

Again, re "Crimson And Clover"...the short version is the original. The long version's guitar bridge was concocted at a later recording session and added to the original...badly.

 

[amfmsw]

"All Right Now" was released with a 45 edit. TM Century GoldDisc library service offers both versions on the CD. As well as Stereo and mono choices of "Satisfaction", most early Beatles cuts, and the choice of stereo lp or true 45 mono version of TDK "Joy To The World".

The local Classic Rock station plays the LP version, the local oldies outlets play the 45 edit...less rough around the edged, and nerarly 2 minutes shorter.

 

[Robert Bass]

JonesTM (formerly TM Century) only shows the long version of All Right Now by Free, in their database.

I have to agree that the version chosen for play, depends more on your format, along with version popularity. On a T40 Oldies format, I'd go with the shorter, more familiar to T40 fans, version. On AOR or Classic Rock, I'd probably go with the longer, album versions.

I do agree that with a few songs, you've got to play only the long versions. American Pie is one of the most classic examples of it's-the-long-version-or-nada. With regard to Knights In White Satun, this is a case where both versions could be used. I have both versions in rotation, with scheduling restrictions to keep the longer version in the late night / overnight / weekend hours.

Another song I am familiar with is Strange Way, by Firefall. The full version of the song is about 4 1/2 minutes, but many compilation CD's have it fade out shortly after the faster tempo with flute and tambourine starts. I only came across the longer, cold ending version, when I was browsing JonesTM's library. After hearing this longer version, I dumped the faded out version.

R

 

[RadioMan203]

"All Right Now" was released with a 45 edit. TM Century GoldDisc library service offers both versions on the CD. As well as Stereo and mono choices of "Satisfaction", most early Beatles cuts, and the choice of stereo lp or true 45 mono version of TDK "Joy To The World".

You have to be careful, as there are edits on the GoldDisc libraries that are handmade by TM and they are wrong when compared to the official vinyl releases. When possible I've always opted for vinyl references and if the TM edit was incorrect I would restore the vinyl record for play on my webstream.

 

[Oldbones]

Electra may have actually beaten RCA to the punch with The Doors "Hello I Love You" 1968 all the RCA 45's were in stereo by 1969. I do have a 1968 DJ copy of The Monkees D.W. Washburn in stereo which was Colgems (RCA).

Actually, Buddah beat them both with "Rice Is Nice" in the spring of '68, a couple of MGM stereo singles ("Sky Pilot" was one) also preceeded "Hello I Love You".
Are you sure your copy of "DW Washburn" is in stereo? I also have it on a promo single and it's mono. First stereo RCA single I saw was "These Eyes" from 1969.

 

[ARDONAVINDA]

You are correct my friend, I goofed. I had to go into the basement and get into my "box of boss biscuits" and noticed my yellow Colgems dj copy does not say stereo on it, I didn't take the time to play it and listen for seperation but I think it probably is mono, I have a reg pressing of it on the red & white, and I'd say there both mono, I did however find my 45 copy of "Teardrop City" 1969 which is stereo it says it on the label. Maybe that's what I was mixing up. Hey I havn't pulled these out in nearly 20 years, I get rusty. ;D About 20 years ago I used to go to these record shops in Philadelphia when I lived on the east coast and I would buy very clean near mint 45's many original pic sleeves, I bought a whole bunch of Turtles picture sleeves. I remember back then liking the way "Elenore" sounded on the 45 mono pressing better than the album or CD stereo mix. The 45 is bassier and heavily reverbed. I like that! It's a very clean copy, wouldn't mind transfering that onto CD and maybe playing that version.
When I worked at a radio station in TN we had a TM Century gold disc version of "Money" without BULLSHIT the backing track remained, it just removed the vocal for that second, I don't have the original 45 so I can't tell if TM got a hold of the original 45 master edit or what? I never dubbed that off on CD, I did dub a copy on to a cart, I still have that but no working cart machine anymore. Should have dubbed to CD, I'm no longer with that company.

 

[Robert Bass]

"All Right Now" was released with a 45 edit. TM Century GoldDisc library service offers both versions on the CD. As well as Stereo and mono choices of "Satisfaction", most early Beatles cuts, and the choice of stereo lp or true 45 mono version of TDK "Joy To The World".

You have to be careful, as there are edits on the GoldDisc libraries that are handmade by TM and they are wrong when compared to the official vinyl releases. When possible I've always opted for vinyl references and if the TM edit was incorrect I would restore the vinyl record for play on my webstream.

According to our TM rep, they do not do any song editing themselves, unless it is a specific customer request. They won't even pitch a song's tempo.

Having said that, TM originally used whatever source material was available to them, when the first batch of GoldDiscs were released. What you should look for, is GoldDiscs ending with the letter "N" which stands for "NoNoise", the process used to clean up (but not edit) the selections.

GoldDiscs ending in "R" that have since been updated with N's, may have bad source material. Usually TM discontinues the R versions when an N version is available. With the N's, you often get both the original promo or 45 RPM versions "and" occasionally the longer album cuts, on the same CD.

R

 

[RadioMan203]

According to our TM rep, they do not do any song editing themselves, unless it is a specific customer request. They won't even pitch a song's tempo.

It sounds like you have a rep who hasn't been there all that long. I've been using GoldDiscs since their inception in the early 80's and to say they haven't done custom edits is far from the truth. Over on Pat Downey's site there's always talk about how TM's edits don't match the original single edits. I personally own at two different generations of the GoldDisc series and have access to later versions through the stations I consult for. I have heard these edits that, while they sound perfectly acceptable, are not mirror images of the original single issues. If that were the case I wouldn't have spent thousands of hours seeking out and restorning original vintage vinyl for my webstream.

Having said that, TM originally used whatever source material was available to them, when the first batch of GoldDiscs were released. What you should look for, is GoldDiscs ending with the letter "N" which stands for "NoNoise", the process used to clean up (but not edit) the selections.

The original No Noise series was an abomination: Some tracks had way too much noise reduction applied, where tracks sounded too "sterile", especially when played on FM with more open processing. The first pressings also were known for nasty phasing problems. I remember playing The Mama's and The Papa's "California Dreamin'" on an AM Stereo station I engineer. It sounded fabulous in stereo - but switch to mono and the vocals just about disappeared! Not too good when the majority of your audience is listening in mono! They later got on the ball with QC and the replacement discs were phase corrected.

GoldDiscs ending in "R" that have since been updated with N's, may have bad source material. Usually TM discontinues the R versions when an N version is available. With the N's, you often get both the original promo or 45 RPM versions "and" occasionally the longer album cuts, on the same CD.

Many of the GoldDiscs were mastered from vinyl and in spite of NoNoise there were plenty of crackles and clicks. I've even cleaned up tracks on GD's when I was too lazy to find an alternate source of certain tracks. With most stations working with MOHD they're not going to actively chase down different versions of the GoldDisc library to replace tracks unless they get a flock of complaints about the quality of the song(s) in question.

 

[Robert Bass]

The early 80's? TM didn't start pressing GoldDiscs back then. In fact they didn't even exist as TM Century back then. It was TM Programming at one point, and then Century21 Programming by the mid 1980's. In those days, they were making music reels, not CD's.

You state you own copies of the first generations of GoldDiscs. Those earlier generations may have bad source material. Those are probably GoldDisc 1's. Many of those have likely been updated to GoldDisc 3's, and have been remastered with better source material.

What proof do you have that states TM does their own edits, and releases them on GoldDiscs? I own some GD3's with edited songs that I first thought TM might have done on their own. But I later found consumer compilation CD's that had the exact same edits as compared to what was on TM's GD3's.

R

 

[RadioMan203]

The early 80's? TM didn't start pressing GoldDiscs back then. In fact they didn't even exist as TM Century back then. It was TM Programming at one point, and then Century21 Programming by the mid 1980's. In those days, they were making music reels, not CD's.

Let's try to remember that CDs came out in the spring of 1983 and Century 21 came out with GoldDiscs not long afterwards. The FM I worked with had reel to reel automation starting witm Century 21's "Z" Format and later moving to Radio Arts Programming. That FM migrated to GoldDiscs not long after it was sold and the former sister AM station moved to C21's GoldDiscs after the influx of cash from the sale of their former counterpart. These were the first generation GoldDiscs with many a phase issue, hence the Mama's and Papa's issue I brought up earlier.

You state you own copies of the first generations of GoldDiscs. Those earlier generations may have bad source material. Those are probably GoldDisc 1's. Many of those have likely been updated to GoldDisc 3's, and have been remastered with better source material.

I may have a few original GoldDisc 1's, but most of my libraries are GoldDisc 3's - both "red" label print and "black" label print. The vast majority of my library was purchased after 1999 with the exception of the two libraries I purchased from stations that had gone dark. Even some of the later discs are not as clean as you may imagine. I have Halland libraries and many songs on Halland's discs are sonically superior to many that appear on GoldDiscs. To be technically accurate, I would say GoldDiscs with music recorded past 1990 are usually sonically equal to those of other vendors such as Halland, Swaitek, etc.

What proof do you have that states TM does their own edits, and releases them on GoldDiscs? I own some GD3's with edited songs that I first thought TM might have done on their own. But I later found consumer compilation CD's that had the exact same edits as compared to what was on TM's GD3's.

I would head yourself over to Pat Downey's site http://www.top40musiconcd.com/forum/ and ask for yourself - there are plenty of single-edit devotees there who will be able to give you examples of where Century 21/TM Century/JonesTM have edits that don't match original singles. In fact, I bet if you search the forums you'll find them for yourself without even bothering to ask. And if you think I'm kidding, just ask any of the forum regulars - they are anal about matching edits and will fuss about those that vary more than a second or two, let alone mix differences, screwed-up edit points in poor attempts to re-create lost edits, etc.

FYI: TMCI was originally TM Productions, thanks to Tom Merriman founding it back in the late 60's. I believe it was the late 80's when TM Communications Inc. and Century 21 merged.

 

[RadioMan203]

Robert,

I decided to save you a little time. Go to this post on Pat's site:

http://www.top40musiconcd.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1379&&PID=7249

and scroll down to the second post in the thread. It's just one of many on the board that support the fact that C21/TMC/JonesTM GoldDiscs do have homemade and sometimes inaccurate edits of single "hit" tracks.

 

[Robert Bass]

Bill,

With all due respect...

Dave Scott introduced the GoldDisc concept in 1985, and introduced HitDiscs a year later. At the time of the introduction of GoldDiscs, Dave states there were around 3,000 clients. It is common knowledge that C21 asked all of their clients to provide copies of songs, for C21 to evaluate as potential source material for the GoldDiscs. It is very possible those contributions were used by C21, with no effort on their behalf to compare the submitted recordings against the single releases. Those recordings could very well have been edited by the person whom supplied them. I believe TM does their homework on that matter now, and thus the need for reissuing earlier GD 1 and 2 pressings as GD3. The No Noise technology went into place at C21 in the late 1980's, after the introduction of the technology from SonicSolutions in 1987. So there's no way GoldDiscs were around in 1982 - 1984, unless perhaps you have a test disc dub from 1984.

As for colors, I believe the song info printed in blue on the CD's, were GD1's, red text is GD2 (now known as GD-R's) and black text is GD3. Some of the GD's in TM's library are still generation 2's, others have since been re-mastered as GD3's.

I can't buy into that website blog with the person who posted it, because he isn't detailed enough. He makes claims of edits, but does not state exactly what GD generation was used for the tests, specifically the GD issue and GD number. The "run times" comparison is not in itself, the best way to test that theory. I find this post is potentially a subjective opinion from the poster. If you can provide actual GD3 disc numbers of TM's product you find are sonically (or whatever) incorrect, I will do my own comparisons.

For example, I have a first generation of GoldDisc 303. We have the GD3 version at KEOM. The M&P song appears on that CD, and I'll do a side by side on Monday. I took my copy of 303 and summed that song to mono with Adobe Audition 1.5, and the vocals do not almost vanish. Rather, the whole mono mix sounds a bit too bright for my taste. Please note, I ran this test on my computer, with PC speakers. I will run the test again on a better monitoring setup, on Monday.

R

 

[RadioMan203]

Those recordings could very well have been edited by the person whom supplied them. I believe TM does their homework on that matter now, and thus the need for reissuing earlier GD 1 and 2 pressings as GD3. The No Noise technology went into place at C21 in the late 1980's, after the introduction of the technology from SonicSolutions in 1987. So there's no way GoldDiscs were around in 1982 - 1984, unless perhaps you have a test disc dub from 1984.

Since one of my stations was sold in '84 and I remember them migrating to CD not long after I know it had to be around the '84-'85 time frame. I'll gladly go and look up the invoices, since invoices can't dispute the fact when they were billed for their GoldDisc purchases. Just to say that " ... I believe (Jones)TM does their homework on that matter now" doesn't mean that they have weeded out all their questionable edits off of their discs by now. BTW: I do have a test/introductory disc from when GoldDiscs were initially release, although I never used it in an "on-air" situation to evaluate sonics, phasing, etc (since the sampler/demo was "borrowed" from programming and ended up in my archive box somewhere out in the garage.

As for colors, I believe the song info printed in blue on the CD's, were GD1's, red text is GD2 (now known as GD-R's) and black text is GD3. Some of the GD's in TM's library are still generation 2's, others have since been re-mastered as GD3's.

Perhaps not always the case, since they have different series of discs it is possibe you can't always identify a disc this way. I also have discs from such series as the "1800" series which are multicolor (or at least with yellow and black logos on them), which I haven't been able to find any original blue/black/red plain printing issued media for.

I can't buy into that website blog with the person who posted it, because he isn't detailed enough. He makes claims of edits, but does not state exactly what GD generation was used for the tests, specifically the GD issue and GD number. The "run times" comparison is not in itself, the best way to test that theory. I find this post is potentially a subjective opinion from the poster. If you can provide actual GD3 disc numbers of TM's product you find are sonically (or whatever) incorrect, I will do my own comparisons.

The one post I referenced was only meant as an example to show you that there are others who have already proven that there are differences in GDs from single edits and mixes. It seems pretty appearent from your reply that you neither asked any of the forum's regulars nor did any further research on the board to search past the post I noted. I know for a fact that there are more posts that reference issues with GDs and the person analyzing the tracks in question have identified the discs in some manner, be it with GD3 logo, the printed ink color or the disc library or pressing numbers. Not researching the informational lead I gave you can't be the basis for saying it's moot or untrue. Using that sort of logic would be like me saying out of five people I asked only one voted for Bush, so Bush must not be president. Robert, feel free to ask on Pat's forum or at the very least search the forums for yourself - the post I referenced was back from 2006 - I picked that post to show that this issue wasn't just brought up yesterday.

For example, I have a first generation of GoldDisc 303. We have the GD3 version at KEOM. The M&P song appears on that CD, and I'll do a side by side on Monday. I took my copy of 303 and summed that song to mono with Adobe Audition 1.5, and the vocals do not almost vanish. Rather, the whole mono mix sounds a bit too bright for my taste. Please note, I ran this test on my computer, with PC speakers. I will run the test again on a better monitoring setup, on Monday.

That's good that you can perform your test on your PC, but does it duplicate "real-world" conditions? Not being performed through the actual AM transmission system in question, let alone processing and playback equipment would lead me not to accept the test with enough merit to be conclusive. I'll have to see if I have an aircheck in my archives that shows the example in question in AM Stereo recieved in mono with the deminished vocals. This issue was witnessed by other engineers in my market. It was even brought up in discussion by other engineers in my SBE chapter and confirmed that the C21 discs were the fault of the "lost vocal" syndrome on the M&P tune as well as other noticeable phase and QC issues. Replacing that track resolved the on-air playback issue with expected results in both stereo and mono off-air reception.

With all due respect, Robert, how long have you been doing engineering? Do you regularly network with fellow engineers in your market? Working in engineering for more than 33 years, with the vast majority of that being in commercial broadcasting I've seem many things an engineer working one lone station wouldn't. Having been involved in the New York chapter of the SBE allowed me to pick the minds of some of the greatest engineering talent in the nation's number 1 market. If there's a problem relating to audio quality, be it related to a studio playback problem, processing abnormaiity or transmission system fault, these guys aren't just going to sit back and leave it be - it simply will not be tolerated in a market as competitive as New York City.

Having addressed the phasing playback issues let's get back to the question at hand about single edits. I think it would be worth your while to check out the information I gave you earlier. Like I said, I would have never been bothered to purchase and restore more than 300 vinyl singles (and purchase more styli for my turntables) if it would heve been easier to purchase the tracks as GoldDisc or GoldWav selections. I also have an amazing collection of promo edits that the GDs completely lack due to a given tune's vintage or chart popularity.

 

[Robert Bass]

Bill,

Let’s try to keep this on topic.

Again, you’re citing a blog thread as your source for proof that TM does in-house edits. Anyone can post anything they want to on a blog, but that doesn’t always mean it is true.

Regarding the 1800 series discs, I checked the Jones TM website, and although I did not look up all 50 discs, the first 20 and random checks of 21 – 50 are all indicating they are GD-R’s.

I noticed further down in the original link you provided, the song Miracles by J. Starship was claimed to have been edited via commission. I looked up that song on the Jones TM site and found on GoldDisc 210N there is a version marked with “Special Edit” (track #22), and perhaps that is the commissioned edit?

Of course we all know that when CD’s first hit the U.S. market, there were only two CD pressing plants, neither of them were located in the U.S. It has taken a couple of decades for older songs to resurface on CD’s. This reaffirms the fact that C21 used whatever source material they could obtain, for GD1’s and GD2’s.

According to a brochure I have from C21, only a small fraction of vinyl is used for the GD3’s. The remainder of older selections on GD3’s has come from better source material direct from the record labels. This would include the original 2 track master mix tapes. It goes on to state that with the GD3 series, digital CD players and digital consoles were used in the mastering process.

I would hope that Dave Scott is reading this thread, and would chime in with his knowledge about the product himself.

R

 

[RadioMan203]

Let’s try to keep this on topic.

I have. Given my responses above are directly related to quotes from your posts. If you choose to not respond to my queries that is solely by your own choice. Be it on the topic of edit discrepancies or sonics/phasing, I gave you the answer to your query in addition to background supporting it.

Again, you’re citing a blog thread as your source for proof that TM does in-house edits.

Pardon me? While I referred you to one particular thread message I had mentioned to you that there's multiple messages across the entire forum to support the topic at hand on edit discrepancies. Again, I gave you more than ample information to look up and confirm the facts at hand. I can't help it if you feel it's not worth your while to research the entire forum or ask those folks who are intimately familiar with these discrepancies which they have confirmed on numerous occasions. Perhaps another informed single-edit enthusiast will chime in should they feel it's worth their time to research Pat's forums.

Anyone can post anything they want to on a blog, but that doesn’t always mean it is true.

And you've decided to take what you've read about Gold Discs as gospel? What makes C21/TMC/JonesTM so infallible? They're human like the rest of the race.

I noticed further down in the original ]

Perhaps, I'll have to pull my copy of GD210 and see if it's an "N" version, since I know I restored my RCA promo of that track simply because all I had on my available CDs was the LP length/version.

Of course we all know that when CD’s first hit the U.S. market, there were only two CD pressing plants, neither of them were located in the U.S. It has taken a couple of decades for older songs to resurface on CD’s. This reaffirms the fact that C21 used whatever source material they could obtain, for GD1’s and GD2’s.

Could it be they use the same source material they used while producing their "Z" Format and other automation formats they were producing at the time? Assuming their formats' music masters were on tape this would allow them to edit tracks where needed and have them readily available for production. It's not out of the question that 2 track editing could have easily accomplished many of the edits in question, especially since tape editing had be around since the 1960's.

According to a brochure I have from C21, only a small fraction of vinyl is used for the GD3’s. The remainder of older selections on GD3’s has come from better source material direct from the record labels. This would include the original 2 track master mix tapes. It goes on to state that with the GD3 series, digital CD players and digital consoles were used in the mastering process.

Regardless of the source, be it "... has come from better source material direct from the record labels" or a digital transfer from a CD via a digital console the down and dirty fact remains, what's to say their songs aren't edited? If they are, what's to say they spent the time to edit them to mirror the retail or promo single version? IIRC I believe it was TM who pioneered the now well-accepted edit of Stevie Wonder's "Isn't She Lovely" - a track that a label-sanctioned edited single had never existed due to the fact Stevie didn't want it edited at all!

BTW: If you take everything you've read in a brochure as gospel, the marketing folks are going to have a field day with you.

Gosh, I love lively debates!

 

[Robert Bass]

Bill,

I doubt the marketing people who put that brochure together, are still the same marketing people who are there today. I wouldn't be surprised if they ran out of brochures and the present marketing folks have never seen them.

Be that as it may...

I would much rather go by what Dave himself says, than what a bunch of timing geeks go by. You still haven't given me any specific GD numbers you think have bad edits made in-house. Citing the 1800 series was a nice start, and as I showed you those are coming up as GD2's / GDR's. There is a potential for those pressings to contain bad edits.

But as far as GD3's go, there has been more than enough time for TM to research and remaster all the cuts, from better source material, and I am not going to spend all day searching blogs for people who claim to know TM still uses commissioned edits, when the very first link you gave me contains no hard evidence. That post did not give the pressing and CD numbering information that I would insist on having for doing my own tests.

At this point, I'm only interested on what you find, when you review your copy of 210N.

Now if you want real proof that a GD3 version of a song that has an edit not done in-house, check out 10cc’s “I’m Not in Love” on GD219N track #7 or GD7501N track #12. We have both a GDR and GDN copy of 219. The first time I heard the edited version on 219N, I noticed the quite obvious edit at the end of the song. My initial reaction was to question where that edit came from. After some research I found not one but two different consumer compilation CD’s with the exact same edit at the exact same place. One of those compilations is on the Rhino Records “Super Hits of the 70’s” collection. Specifically volume 14, track 12.

Obviously Rhino and TM used identical source material, so there’s no proof pointing to who made the edit.

I would still rather hear from Dave himself, than I would some poster who supposedly has knowledge, but never actually worked for TM.

R

 

[RadioMan203]

Robert,

You may discount the research from those "timing geeks" but the fact that they have found evidence of bad edits and/or incorrect single versions on Gold Discs is fact and not just hearsay (that was the subject of this thread, right?). Hope you're hungry, cause I've been busy listening to things you think don't exist from the infallible C21/TM/Jones boys:

1. Whitney Houston - How Will I Know

My rip of GoldDisc 923 matches the re-mastered LP version, which differs from the 45 edit. The remastered LP version switches over to sparser instrumentation at the 4:17 mark. In addition to altered instrumentation and fading slightly earlier, the 45 has a one-line difference in the background vocals:

The remastered LP fadeout goes:
How will I know
(How will I know)
How will I know
How will I know
(I say a prayer)
How will I know, ooh
How will I know
(I fall in love)
How will I know
Hey, How will I know
(I'm asking you)
How will I, How will I... (END)

The 45 version fadeout goes:
How will I know
(How will I know)
How will I know
How will I know
(I say a prayer)
How will I know, ooh
(Heartbeat)
How will I know
(I fall in love)
How will I know
Hey, how will I know... (END)

This was confirmed thanks to a "timing geeks" thread and my iPod.

2. Chicago - Beginnings

I have two copies of this Chicago track, as it appears on both GD 226 track 17 / GD 431 track 1 - neither seem to be the correct single edit. My Columbia vinyl single runs 2:45 while GD 226 runs 2:40 and GD 431 runs 2:32 There are 11 edits to cull the LP length down to correctly match the single edit - part of the Gold Disc track actually drops to mono for a brief moment as C21/TM fumbled on the edit (can't remember which one or both). That's a dead giveaway of a homemade edit if ever I heard one! Ask yourself this, correct and consistent edits don't vary 8 seconds between CDs, do they? My personal master of this one is from my vinyl single

3. Huey Lewis & The News - I Know What I Like

The 45 edit of this one runs 3:53 while the CD version runs 4:00 - The Gold Disc version matches the LP version note for note as well as for length, This version also appears on Lewis' "Fore" CD release, also confirming it's not the single edit. The MOHD tag for this one states source was Gold Disc 149. Glad I had my "Fore" CD on my iPod for this one.

4. Stevie Nicks - Talk To Me

Another misstep that appears on Gold Disc 121. From what I can tell, the first disc was released with an alternate mix and vocal take when compared to my reference copy. I found a second copy on a client's system which matches the LP version, having MOHD tags from GD 121v1 - perhaps a re-release or GD3 version of GD 121?

A couple of these are MOHD masters and backups so I can't confirm which version of Gold Discs they came from. While it's easy for me to listen to my local MOHD and iPod backups for my webstream, it's a chore trying to PC Anywhere into my clients' networks looking to locate and listen to these tracks. BTW: All of my personal CDs are in storage during my home remodel and I'm not about to go through 200+ boxes to find all of them so I won't be checking discs 210, 219, or 750 until I get some time to sit in one of my stations to take a listening in a studio. I will also look in the PD's office to see if the discs refereced in MOHD tags are of Gold Disc 3's, earlier versions or even Gold Wav purchases.

There are four examples of incorrect versions or edits sourced from Gold Discs, so I doubt those single edit enthusiasts (or as you have referred to them, "timing geeks") are blowing smoke. You also never said anything about TM's custom edit of "Isn't She lovely" as no lablel-sanctioned single has ever existed for it. That's pretty obvious that they have created custom edits, which by the way appears on Gold Disc 217 track 19.