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R&B staples on non-urban stations

M

mcnamara

Guest
How do programmers determine what R&B is played on non-urban stations? I get confused. Sometimes it's clear to me e.g. if it's watered-down (read: not offensively soulful) R&B songs like "Turn Your Love Around" by George Benson and "Stay With Me Tonight" by Jeffrey Osborne. Then sometimes I just don't get the rationale e.g. "Shining Star" by Earth Wind & Fire and "Take Your Time" by the SOS Band.
 
R&B staples

Truth is that not a lot of it tests on white-bread targeted stations. I hear a lot of Oldies stations forcing 70's R&B into their mix ("cuz it sounds like some of the Motown of the 60's", which is untrue) and it doesn't work. That's not a programming opinion as much as having read tons of oldies music research over the past 15 years or so.

And, it's a damn shame, cuz I love stuff like the Dramatics, Undisputed Truth, Delfonics, Harold & Bluenotes, Stylistics, etc. Most, however, tests totally lousy with Oldies-type stations. A few excptions, of course, like a few of the big Barry White hits, couple of O'Jays, Al Green's Let's Stay Together, plus a couple of disco-genre songs that really are more mass-appeal like Get Down Tonight and That's The Way(I Like It) by KC & Sunshine band or Brickhouse.

> How do programmers determine what R&B is played on non-urban
> stations? I get confused. Sometimes it's clear to me e.g. if
> it's watered-down (read: not offensively soulful) R&B songs
> like "Turn Your Love Around" by George Benson and "Stay With
> Me Tonight" by Jeffrey Osborne. Then sometimes I just don't
> get the rationale e.g. "Shining Star" by Earth Wind & Fire
> and "Take Your Time" by the SOS Band.
>
 
Re: R&B staples

> Truth is that not a lot of it tests on white-bread targeted
> stations. I hear a lot of Oldies stations forcing 70's R&B
> into their mix ("cuz it sounds like some of the Motown of
> the 60's", which is untrue) and it doesn't work. That's not
> a programming opinion as much as having read tons of oldies
> music research over the past 15 years or so.
>
> And, it's a damn shame, cuz I love stuff like the Dramatics,
> Undisputed Truth, Delfonics, Harold & Bluenotes, Stylistics,
> etc. Most, however, tests totally lousy with Oldies-type
> stations. A few excptions, of course, like a few of the big
> Barry White hits, couple of O'Jays, Al Green's Let's Stay
> Together, plus a couple of disco-genre songs that really are
> more mass-appeal like Get Down Tonight and That's The Way(I
> Like It) by KC & Sunshine band or Brickhouse.

Hey Cat, you are so right on those type songs not testing. I program Oldies in the South, do lots of auditorium testing, and they test poorly.
Frankly, I'm surprised.

They're such great songs and let's face it, we know a lot of people like them.
Do you think the "hooks" just don't do them justice? Or, the testing environment(next to the Stones and CCR) is just not right for that smooth soul
sound?

Like the Jack format's wide variety, maybe we should just mix them in anyway.
It pisses me off that I can't play them!

HMMMM? What do you think?
 
Re: R&B staples

I think it's as simple as we like these songs more than our listeners do. We in radio have different likes and tastes and are exposed to more music than a great majority of our listeners ever are (whether we want to admit it or not).

From the testing question: a song hook is a song hook- it is what it is. Doesn't matter if it's a Dramatics hook or a Stones hook- they either like the songs or they don't. And a lot of these were "manufactured" hits by PDs and DJs who loved the music and loved playing them. That has nothing to do with whether they were great songs (I think they were). It's the age-old division between the pop culture radio, TV and movies shoves down consumers throats and what the public really wants and likes (and they are not always the same).

The bigger question is: why give regular spins to songs we KNOW most of our lsiteners don't want to hear on a regular basis? It's fine to make them part of special features, Lost songs, etc., and get minimal mileage out of minimal hits.

>
> Hey Cat, you are so right on those type songs not testing.
> I program Oldies in the South, do lots of auditorium
> testing, and they test poorly. Frankly, I'm surprised.
>
> They're such great songs and let's face it, we know a lot of
> people like them.
> Do you think the "hooks" just don't do them justice? Or,
> the testing environment(next to the Stones and CCR) is just
> not right for that smooth soul sound?
>
> Like the Jack format's wide variety, maybe we should just
> mix them in anyway.
> It pisses me off that I can't play them!
>
> HMMMM? What do you think?
>
 
Re: R&B staples

Soul Street on XM for all of us! When I saw my first music test, I was surprised at how poorly all but a few Motown songs did.
 
Re: R&B staples

> I think it's as simple as we like these songs more than our
> listeners do. We in radio have different likes and tastes
> and are exposed to more music than a great majority of our
> listeners ever are (whether we want to admit it or not).
>
> From the testing question: a song hook is a song hook- it is
> what it is. Doesn't matter if it's a Dramatics hook or a
> Stones hook- they either like the songs or they don't. And
> a lot of these were "manufactured" hits by PDs and DJs who
> loved the music and loved playing them. That has nothing to
> do with whether they were great songs (I think they were).
> It's the age-old division between the pop culture radio, TV
> and movies shoves down consumers throats and what the public
> really wants and likes (and they are not always the same).
>
> The bigger question is: why give regular spins to songs we
> KNOW most of our lsiteners don't want to hear on a regular
> basis? It's fine to make them part of special features,
> Lost songs, etc., and get minimal mileage out of minimal
> hits.
>

You seem to be contradicting yourself from earlier statements you've made regarding VH playlists. There are plenty of non-R&B "turntable hits" too...many of which seem to be re-surfacing on VH stations. Either VH listeners want a wide playlist or they don't...which is it? While I find our local VH station ("Mike" in Boston) an interesting listen, I hear way too many stiffs or songs I don't even know. I can't imagine a non-music geek wanting to listen to a mix like that for very long.
 
R&B staples

But Oldies and Variety Hits are different.

The songs you refer to are indeed out there and people want them, but I stick with my premise that a lot of songs charted and were chart "hits" because of record company promotions or PD's liking the song. It goes the other way, too- many songs didn't chart that high, yet are huge today (and that's because they were bigger than the charts indicated when they were out). "Land Of 1000 Dances" by Wilson Pickett peaked at #21- "Ain't Too Proud To Beg" by the Temps never hit the top 10 and "All My Lovin'" by The Beatles NEVER hit the top 40.
But we all know these are huge today. Same goes on VH stations- many of the songs are testing great because they're legit "hits", former chart position notwithstanding. And, part of the charm w/V.H. stations is all the songs are hits, just from a wider and broader era.
>
> You seem to be contradicting yourself from earlier
> statements you've made regarding VH playlists. There are
> plenty of non-R&B "turntable hits" too...many of which seem
> to be re-surfacing on VH stations. Either VH listeners want
> a wide playlist or they don't...which is it? While I find
> our local VH station ("Mike" in Boston) an interesting
> listen, I hear way too many stiffs or songs I don't even
> know. I can't imagine a non-music geek wanting to listen to
> a mix like that for very long.
>
 
Welcome To Jack, turn you clock back about 35 years

Jack's programming logic is right out Jim Crowe. It's laughable.

Look can we cut the BS about Jerk. It's a heavily researched format aimed at WHITE MEN that plays only researched WHITE music with a few acceptable BLACKIE hits and some lame ass (BLEEP) heard on the LIFETIME channel. The mentality (when it comes to urban) is the reason why many DARKIE songs became hits years after they were released because WHITEY, testosterone filled PDs were determining what WHITEY would listen to from those NEGROES. And once again square white guys are constantly bombarding the airwaves with nothing but ROCK and derivates of washed up artists taking into no account the fact that many people would love to hear music they haven't been allowed to in years. I know, Donna Summer and others are taboo for Hollander, God forbid we play any URBAN music that threatens our WHITE REIGN over the part mood. The format takes no no market's heritage into account. It's small town radio run on the cheap. That's fine but let's no bullshit people anymore OK. It's insulting.

NOTE: This corporate humping lackey OldiesCat should carry a bucket around for Hollander so you don't have to use your hands to pick up all his crap.



> But Oldies and Variety Hits are different.
>
> The songs you refer to are indeed out there and people want
> them, but I stick with my premise that a lot of songs
> charted and were chart "hits" because of record company
> promotions or PD's liking the song. It goes the other way,
> too- many songs didn't chart that high, yet are huge today
> (and that's because they were bigger than the charts
> indicated when they were out). "Land Of 1000 Dances" by
> Wilson Pickett peaked at #21- "Ain't Too Proud To Beg" by
> the Temps never hit the top 10 and "All My Lovin'" by The
> Beatles NEVER hit the top 40.
> But we all know these are huge today. Same goes on VH
> stations- many of the songs are testing great because
> they're legit "hits", former chart position notwithstanding.
> And, part of the charm w/V.H. stations is all the songs are
> hits, just from a wider and broader era.
> >
> > You seem to be contradicting yourself from earlier
> > statements you've made regarding VH playlists. There are
> > plenty of non-R&B "turntable hits" too...many of which
> seem
> > to be re-surfacing on VH stations. Either VH listeners
> want
> > a wide playlist or they don't...which is it? While I find
>
> > our local VH station ("Mike" in Boston) an interesting
> > listen, I hear way too many stiffs or songs I don't even
> > know. I can't imagine a non-music geek wanting to listen
> to
> > a mix like that for very long.
> >
>
 
Welcome To Jack

thanks for the perspective, Mr. Bitter Beer Face. Now, please go crawl back into your black hole.

>
> Look can we cut the BS about Jerk. It's a heavily researched
> format aimed at WHITE MEN that plays only researched WHITE
> music with a few acceptable BLACKIE hits and some lame ass
> (BLEEP) heard on the LIFETIME channel. The mentality (when
> it comes to urban) is the reason why many DARKIE songs
> became hits years after they were released because WHITEY,
> testosterone filled PDs were determining what WHITEY would
> listen to from those NEGROES. And once again square white
> guys are constantly bombarding the airwaves with nothing but
> ROCK and derivates of washed up artists taking into no
> account the fact that many people would love to hear music
> they haven't been allowed to in years. I know, Donna Summer
> and others are taboo for Hollander, God forbid we play any
> URBAN music that threatens our WHITE REIGN over the part
> mood. The format takes no no market's heritage into account.
> It's small town radio run on the cheap. That's fine but
> let's no bullshit people anymore OK. It's insulting.
>
> NOTE: This corporate humping lackey OldiesCat should carry a
> bucket around for Hollander so you don't have to use your
> hands to pick up all his crap.
>
>
>
> > But Oldies and Variety Hits are different.
> >
> > The songs you refer to are indeed out there and people
> want
> > them, but I stick with my premise that a lot of songs
> > charted and were chart "hits" because of record company
> > promotions or PD's liking the song. It goes the other
> way,
> > too- many songs didn't chart that high, yet are huge today
>
> > (and that's because they were bigger than the charts
> > indicated when they were out). "Land Of 1000 Dances" by
> > Wilson Pickett peaked at #21- "Ain't Too Proud To Beg" by
> > the Temps never hit the top 10 and "All My Lovin'" by The
> > Beatles NEVER hit the top 40.
> > But we all know these are huge today. Same goes on VH
> > stations- many of the songs are testing great because
> > they're legit "hits", former chart position
> notwithstanding.
> > And, part of the charm w/V.H. stations is all the songs
> are
> > hits, just from a wider and broader era.
> > >
> > > You seem to be contradicting yourself from earlier
> > > statements you've made regarding VH playlists. There
> are
> > > plenty of non-R&B "turntable hits" too...many of which
> > seem
> > > to be re-surfacing on VH stations. Either VH listeners
> > want
> > > a wide playlist or they don't...which is it? While I
> find
> >
> > > our local VH station ("Mike" in Boston) an interesting
> > > listen, I hear way too many stiffs or songs I don't even
>
> > > know. I can't imagine a non-music geek wanting to
> listen
> > to
> > > a mix like that for very long.
> > >
> >
>
 
Re: Welcome To Jack

I don't think racial prejudice has anything to do with the Jack/Billy Bob programming approach. Although from OldiesCat's reply it sounds like he/she may have that problem. The VH format is supposedly competing with a person's own mp3 where there's a wide variety of music. That's not possible. In the case of this discussion, I'm a 51 year old white guy who likes Wilson Pickett's "Land of 1000 Dances" and "Funky Broadway". Both of those songs got airplay on Chicago's legendary top-40 WLS. How many times have I heard either one of them on the Indy Jack station? Never. I also like Eddie Kendricks, Edwin Starr, Curtis Mayfield, etc., but those artists aren't played on Jack either. My mp3 still wins. That's why the Jack format is not going to succeed.

> thanks for the perspective, Mr. Bitter Beer Face. Now,
> please go crawl back into your black hole.
>
> >
> > Look can we cut the BS about Jerk. It's a heavily researched
> > format aimed at WHITE MEN that plays only researched WHITE
> > music with a few acceptable BLACKIE hits and some lame ass
> > (BLEEP) heard on the LIFETIME channel. The mentality (when
> > it comes to urban) is the reason why many DARKIE songs
> > became hits years after they were released because WHITEY,
> > testosterone filled PDs were determining what WHITEY would
> > listen to from those NEGROES. And once again square white
> > guys are constantly bombarding the airwaves with nothing
> > but ROCK and derivates of washed up artists taking into no
> > account the fact that many people would love to hear music
> > they haven't been allowed to in years. I know, Donna Summer
> > and others are taboo for Hollander, God forbid we play any
> > URBAN music that threatens our WHITE REIGN over the part mood. The format > > takes no market's heritage into account.
> > It's small town radio run on the cheap. That's fine but
> > let's no bullshit people anymore OK. It's insulting.
> >
> > NOTE: This corporate humping lackey OldiesCat should carry a
> > bucket around for Hollander so you don't have to use your
> > hands to pick up all his crap.
 
omg

Hey, up yours, dude- do not EVER accuse me of such a thing.

Shame on you, big-time.


> I don't think racial prejudice has anything to do with the
> Jack/Billy Bob programming approach. Although from
> OldiesCat's reply it sounds like he/she may have that
> problem. The VH format is supposedly competing with a
> person's own mp3 where there's a wide variety of music.
> That's not possible. In the case of this discussion, I'm a
> 51 year old white guy who likes Wilson Pickett's "Land of
> 1000 Dances" and "Funky Broadway". Both of those songs got
> airplay on Chicago's legendary top-40 WLS. How many times
> have I heard either one of them on the Indy Jack station?
> Never. I also like Eddie Kendricks, Edwin Starr, Curtis
> Mayfield, etc., but those artists aren't played on Jack
> either. My mp3 still wins. That's why the Jack format is
> not going to succeed.
>
> > thanks for the perspective, Mr. Bitter Beer Face. Now,
> > please go crawl back into your black hole.
> >
> > >
> > > Look can we cut the BS about Jerk. It's a heavily
> researched
> > > format aimed at WHITE MEN that plays only researched
> WHITE
> > > music with a few acceptable BLACKIE hits and some lame
> ass
> > > (BLEEP) heard on the LIFETIME channel. The mentality
> (when
> > > it comes to urban) is the reason why many DARKIE songs
> > > became hits years after they were released because
> WHITEY,
> > > testosterone filled PDs were determining what WHITEY
> would
> > > listen to from those NEGROES. And once again square
> white
> > > guys are constantly bombarding the airwaves with nothing
>
> > > but ROCK and derivates of washed up artists taking into
> no
> > > account the fact that many people would love to hear
> music
> > > they haven't been allowed to in years. I know, Donna
> Summer
> > > and others are taboo for Hollander, God forbid we play
> any
> > > URBAN music that threatens our WHITE REIGN over the part
> mood. The format > > takes no market's heritage into
> account.
> > > It's small town radio run on the cheap. That's fine but
> > > let's no bullshit people anymore OK. It's insulting.
> > >
> > > NOTE: This corporate humping lackey OldiesCat should
> carry a
> > > bucket around for Hollander so you don't have to use
> your
> > > hands to pick up all his crap.
>
 
Re: Welcome To Jack

You and I see eye to eye. No attention paid to heritage nor is there a true understanding of that market's heritage.

It's so typical of white guys who smoked pot in their friends basements to have closed minds to what "people" want. They forgot the rest of the world enjoyed many a NEGRO song in the 70s, 80s and 90s. Problem was they were all loading their minds with ROCK N' ROLL and 20 years later became fans of everything they missed out on that many didn't. That's why it's such a lily white format and they have no idea how to combine any of that urban sound with their lily white presentation. They missed the boat back then and they still haven't gotten on it.

And the typical answer from the Kool-Aid crew, we're bitter, Jack is great, Jack is great. It's ridiculous and to defend it says you're a lackey for the company hoping you won't get laid off or a raise of more peanuts. It's a poor idea to think you can supply someone with YOUR idea of what THEIR variety is. It goes against all radio's einstein's have preached. Were they wrong? In this case, it's the only thing they ever got right in that time.

> I don't think racial prejudice has anything to do with the
> Jack/Billy Bob programming approach. Although from
> OldiesCat's reply it sounds like he/she may have that
> problem. The VH format is supposedly competing with a
> person's own mp3 where there's a wide variety of music.
> That's not possible. In the case of this discussion, I'm a
> 51 year old white guy who likes Wilson Pickett's "Land of
> 1000 Dances" and "Funky Broadway". Both of those songs got
> airplay on Chicago's legendary top-40 WLS. How many times
> have I heard either one of them on the Indy Jack station?
> Never. I also like Eddie Kendricks, Edwin Starr, Curtis
> Mayfield, etc., but those artists aren't played on Jack
> either. My mp3 still wins. That's why the Jack format is
> not going to succeed.
>
> > thanks for the perspective, Mr. Bitter Beer Face. Now,
> > please go crawl back into your black hole.
> >
> > >
> > > Look can we cut the BS about Jerk. It's a heavily
> researched
> > > format aimed at WHITE MEN that plays only researched
> WHITE
> > > music with a few acceptable BLACKIE hits and some lame
> ass
> > > (BLEEP) heard on the LIFETIME channel. The mentality
> (when
> > > it comes to urban) is the reason why many DARKIE songs
> > > became hits years after they were released because
> WHITEY,
> > > testosterone filled PDs were determining what WHITEY
> would
> > > listen to from those NEGROES. And once again square
> white
> > > guys are constantly bombarding the airwaves with nothing
>
> > > but ROCK and derivates of washed up artists taking into
> no
> > > account the fact that many people would love to hear
> music
> > > they haven't been allowed to in years. I know, Donna
> Summer
> > > and others are taboo for Hollander, God forbid we play
> any
> > > URBAN music that threatens our WHITE REIGN over the part
> mood. The format > > takes no market's heritage into
> account.
> > > It's small town radio run on the cheap. That's fine but
> > > let's no bullshit people anymore OK. It's insulting.
> > >
> > > NOTE: This corporate humping lackey OldiesCat should
> carry a
> > > bucket around for Hollander so you don't have to use
> your
> > > hands to pick up all his crap.
>
 
Re: omg

With your command of the English language I can see why you USED to be in radio.

> Hey, up yours, dude- do not EVER accuse me of such a thing.
>
> Shame on you, big-time.
 
omg

Still am and doing REALLY WELL.

And, the next time you accuse me of being racist I WILL get you banned.



> With your command of the English language I can see why you USED to be in radio.
>
> > Hey, up yours, dude- do not EVER accuse me of such a thing.
> >
> > Shame on you, big-time.
>
 
Re: omg

You must have the power. I mean, after all, how else could so many of your posts get deleted?

> Still am and doing REALLY WELL.
>
> And, the next time you accuse me of being racist I WILL get
> you banned.
>
 
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