Program Directors vs. Music Directors

[Daryl Lynn L.A.]

You're not off-topic. It's literally about Program Directors and Music Directors.

That said, there have been some tremendous women as Program Directors as well: I believe Rochelle Staab was the first female PD in L.A. at KIIS-AM-FM, from 1976-1978. Since then, just off the top of my head, my former boss and friend Crys Quimby was PD at KFWB from 1996-2003 and Robin Bertolucci has been the PD at KFI for 20 years.

This is fascinating !! Thank you so much, Michael. You are a wealth of information !! And thanks to EVERYONE here who contributed information. What a fun, helpful group of people ! 👍🙂
🙂🙂

 

[michael hagerty]

Yes, I know this is off-topic, but the topic threads here are pretty narrow. - Daryl

Daryl: I don't know how else to say it, so I'll just say it the same way again---you can create your own topic.

Go to the main Los Angeles page---the one showing all the threads. Click the orange box on the top right that says "Post Thread".

Meantime, I'll copy this over and create a thread about Female Air Talent in L.A.

 

[michael hagerty]

I love Stevie Wonder and "Sir Duke", but my gosh, that's an impossible song with which to lead into the news. L.A. top 40 stations always found some movie theme music by Henry Mancini, or Herb Alpert and the Tijuana Brass. I'm sure that Herb Alpert sold millions of albums because his trumpet music was used constantly to lead up to the news. -- Daryl

Not impossible. Just math. I never had to hit the network cold when I was doing music, but backtiming really isn't that hard. It takes practice, but it can be done.

 

[DavidEduardo]

Thank you so much for this information ! At the risk of going off-topic, I cannot imagine a woman program director. In my day, very, very few women held any significant jobs in radio. It was completely a man's world. I think one time at KRLA, DJ Dick Biondi got his girlfriend a job as the music librarian. But that was about it. Anyway, I will look up Rosalie. Thank you. -- Daryl

Today, women are more common in programming. My SO, until retirement, was PD of a group of adult hits FMs in LA, San Francisco, San Diego, Dallas, Chicago, Houston, Phoenix and a half dozen others and did a networked personality show also.

If you follow Kevin & Steve's RAMPO at RAMP - Radio and Music Pros you can see how many women are now successfully running the programming at stations of all sizes.

 

[DavidEduardo]

Not impossible. Just math. I never had to hit the network cold when I was doing music, but backtiming really isn't that hard. It takes practice, but it can be done.

Being a novice and having to fit more stuff into fewer seconds gives surprising results.

At about age 16, I had too few seconds to fit the station ID (that had to be read precisely and exactly from a card) between a network breaking news special and the hourly news summary...

So, tensely, I open the mike and say, "Cleveland's jazz station, WCUY, ninety poo point pee, Cleveland Heights. Stay tuned for ABC news on the hour".

My manager was listening. He called. I have no idea what he said, as he was laughing so hard. I was not fired. I was very embarrassed.

 

[DavidEduardo]

Other great MDs of the 60s and 70s: Betty Brenneman at KHJ,

Betty is legendary, particularly given her ability to work with Drake and Jacobs.

I know she is retired and living in the Palm Springs area, but I have not been able to locate her. I'd love to add her radio memorabilia to www.worldradiohistory.com and would, of course, be astoundingly honored just to talk to her.

 

[Daryl Lynn L.A.]

Today, women are more common in programming. My SO, until retirement, was PD of a group of adult hits FMs in LA, San Francisco, San Diego, Dallas, Chicago, Houston, Phoenix and a half dozen others and did a networked personality show also.

If you follow Kevin & Steve's RAMPO at RAMP - Radio and Music Pros you can see how many women are now successfully running the programming at stations of all sizes.

Thank you, David ! I will definitely look up Kevin and Steve's information. 🙂

 

[TomásEstefan]

This is off-topic ( sigh ), but big important stations like KMPC, KFI, KHJ, had zero female air talent when I was listening.

I think that maybe one time, KRLA program director Jim Washburne gave a secretary, Sie Holliday, a Sunday night DJ shift because the station imagined her to have a "sultry" voice, but she did not last very long, and went back to being a secretary.
She lasted maybe 6 weeks?


I'm sure you're right, but KMPC was hugely successful and would have no need to hire Alene McKinney ( unless she was attractive and was a girlfriend of someone in management). Yes, memory can be deceiving, but a woman pd is almost unimaginagle in the 60's. Maybe in the late 70's, though.

KMPC is huge, very popular, buttoned down, owned by Gene Autry, IIRC. Which I might not be doing. Conservative MOR format, played standards and some top 40 ballads -- for those readers here outside of California.

Mel Torme's daughter, Daisy Torme, was a DJ there in 1990's. I used to listen to her a lot. Yes, I know this is off-topic, but the topic threads here are pretty narrow. - Daryl

Don't forget Kathy Gori on KMPC in the 80s. She might have come down to SoCal from KEX.

 

[michael hagerty]

Don't forget Kathy Gori on KMPC in the 80s. She might have come down to SoCal from KEX.

KSFO. See separate thread on female air talent.

 

[gr8oldies]

Not impossible. Just math. I never had to hit the network cold when I was doing music, but backtiming really isn't that hard. It takes practice, but it can be done.

Hitting with "Sir Duke" was a personal challenge. I've not heard KHJ airchecks ith instrumental fill going into 20-20 News, but certainly backtiming was necessary.

 

[Yabadabado1]

On overnights, had to pull the commercial carts for the morning guy and stack them up by the hours. [6 to 7= one stack, 7 to 8=another stack] There would literally be a stack of carts foot and a half high by 3 feet long. I always thought that there had to be way more minutes on the carts then there were in an hour and figured that he must have played maybe one song an hour, if even that. I assume the traffic director at the station had way more pull than any PD or MD that worked there, at least as far as the morning shift went. And all this happened way before itart radio started doing there 18-22 commercials in a row crap.
A station in my area dumped their talk and went back to music about 3 years ago and it sounded great at first. Hit the news at the top of the hour, etc. Now they're back to playing an instrumental and it can run anywhere from 15 seconds to maybe 3/4ths of the way through when it's unceremoniously chopped off for the news. They were getting sloppy with station IDs, heard some up to 10 minutes past the hour or before. The must've gotten busted because all of a sudden it went back to being between 2 minutes before/after the top of the hour.

 

[michael hagerty]

I've not heard KHJ airchecks ith instrumental fill going into 20-20 News, but certainly backtiming was necessary.

No, it wasn't. The only time precise timing is necessary is to hit a live event that's starting whether you're ready or not---like a network newscast. 20/20 News began when the record ended. The PD liked it to be close, but there are plenty of airchecks where not only did 20/20 News start a minute or so past :20 or :40, but, whether there was a newscast in that hour or not, the legal ID was "4:01" or "7:02 in Boss Angeles".

Paul Drew, when he became RKO National PD in mid-'73, after Drake left, had been so bugged by it (his previous gig was day-to-day PD of KHJ) that he installed one of those audible top-of-the-hour tones like KMPC used. It only lasted a few weeks because all it did was highlight just how far off the exact top of the hour the legal ID was airing most of the time.

 

[michael hagerty]

Hitting with "Sir Duke" was a personal challenge.

Not to take anything away from that, gr8oldies, but hitting with "Sir Duke" is no harder or easier than hitting with any song with a cold ending and a defined running time. It sounds cooler because of the abrupt ending, but it's the same math that you're doing to hit with any record that ended cold.

 

[michael hagerty]

On overnights, had to pull the commercial carts for the morning guy and stack them up by the hours. [6 to 7= one stack, 7 to 8=another stack] There would literally be a stack of carts foot and a half high by 3 feet long. I always thought that there had to be way more minutes on the carts then there were in an hour and figured that he must have played maybe one song an hour, if even that. I assume the traffic director at the station had way more pull than any PD or MD that worked there, at least as far as the morning shift went. And all this happened way before itart radio started doing there 18-22 commercials in a row crap.
A station in my area dumped their talk and went back to music about 3 years ago and it sounded great at first. Hit the news at the top of the hour, etc. Now they're back to playing an instrumental and it can run anywhere from 15 seconds to maybe 3/4ths of the way through when it's unceremoniously chopped off for the news. They were getting sloppy with station IDs, heard some up to 10 minutes past the hour or before. The must've gotten busted because all of a sudden it went back to being between 2 minutes before/after the top of the hour.

Wow. What station? And didn't that get complicated if the same spot ran in adjacent hours (say in the 6 and 7 a.m. hours)?

The rule of thumb when I was doing it in the 70s, was, as a courtesy, you pulled the first hour of the next jock's commercial carts for him/her. After that, it's up to them and they pay it forward for the next jock.

As for spot load, that's not so much the Traffic Director as the GM and sales. The Traffic Director just makes sure the spots make it into the logs and deals with conflicts and discrepancies.

In Reno, we were at 18 minutes an hour and an FM beautiful music switched format and started playing our playlist with eight minutes of commercials an hour. We got the GM to raise rates and lower our spot load to 14 (as low as he'd go), but six months later, political season began and he took us to 22 minutes an hour (this is 1980). We went from 2nd place in the market to tied for sixth. The FM went to number one. Within two years (I'd gone to TV by then, our station had gone Country. After that, talk, then satellite oldies and finally Immaculate Heart Radio. The FM is still doing AC 42 years later.

The FCC rule on IDs was within two minutes of the top of the hour or as close as possible within a natural break. Starting in the 80s, some stations took that to mean that they could bury the ID in the last stopset of the hour, even if that was at :47, and sweep the top of the hour with music. It went on for decades. Recently, though, the FCC has begun notifying stations that it considers "a natural break" to be the ending of a song. If you could put a jingle or a sweeper in there, you can put a legal ID there. And most are now complying and getting the ID in within :02 or :03 of the top.

 

[Daryl Lynn L.A.]

Recently, though, the FCC has begun notifying stations that it considers "a natural break" to be the ending of a song. If you could put a jingle or a sweeper in there, you can put a legal ID there. And most are now complying and getting the ID in within :02 or :03 of the top.

Yes. Michael, you are correct 100% of the time on the topics. ( as well as many other people here who are chatting).
I am listening to KFRC San Francisco on the internet right now. This band is called HD-2 , but they also say they are FM 106.9.
And they just did the station ID at 8:59:30 PM. Otherwise, there is almost no talk at all. ( no weather, no freeway traffic, no sports, no time announcements). It is just oldies music 1960's- 2000's.

So, I have a question about how the role of a program director or music director has changed.

For example: In the old days, I guess, there would be a staff meeting of all the air talent, then the PD would announce the new playlist for the week, and copies of the Top 40 record list would be distributed. Then, the music director makes sure that those records are available in the DJ booth. In the 80's or so, the station moves from vinyl 45's to music recorded on "carts", correct?
So that is announced in a face to face meeting, just as all businesses have staff meetings and introduce their new products to the employees.

It is helpful, IMO, to think of a radio station as a business, where the product is entertainment, and the music is part of the product.
So, everyone would agree to play those records on the list - or brand new "pick of the week" records that had not charted yet.

Then of course, in the digital age, this can be done via e-mail memos which go out to the staff. And the music can be downloaded onto a computer playlist, which can be interspersed with the spot ads or commercials.

So, this the playlist for KFRC last hour. They call this format "classic hits" instead of "oldies".(But, it's just oldies):

Piano Man - Billy Joel

Help Me Rhonda- Beach Boys

Any Way you Want It - Journey

Rock the Boat - Hues Corporation

The Sound of Philadelphia - MFSB ( this oldies station likes to play disco)

Jungle Love - Steve Miller

Can't Buy Me Love - Beatles

Have You Ever Seen the Rain -- Creedence Clearwater

Too Late to Turn Back Now - Cornelius Brothers

Back In Love - L.T.D.

Yours Faithfully -- Journey

Get It On -- T Rex.

So, on KFRC's playlist, they have mostly groups, with a few male solos, like Piano Man. ( One instrumental, no female soloists or girl groups).

Now - somebody chose this playlist. Because KFRC is an Audacy station and part of a huge corporation, it's could be a program director at the corporate office. And, that PD could choose the same playlist for any number of Audacy internet stations with an oldies format. Just send out a software file of music. It doesn't have to be specific for San Francisco.

So, because everything is digital, that eliminates the need for local DJ's ( everything can be VT if there is any need for announcements - which KFRC rarely does, except for one commercial for a medical clinic in Danville, CA).

But, it also eliminates the need for program directors. One national program director can choose the playlist for all Audacy stations with a "classic hits" format.

However -- What happens if KFRC and Audacy wants to "outsource" their play list? What is to prevent them from ordering a pre-packaged playlist from an independent music service that composes a playlist of oldies, then just sells the playlist to the station? All the station has to do is open the software and download it, or better yet, just access it off the cloud.
So, even a program director's job is completely superfluous, because with streaming, and huge corporations, there's no need for any local programming. It can all be outsourced. This is kind of sad !

Michael, or anyone.........Is this is what is happening? Not only is air talent obsolete, but also the program director and music director? Thank you, from Daryl

 

[TheBigA]

In the 80's or so, the station moves from vinyl 45's to music recorded on "carts", correct?

Depends on the station. WABC was using carts in the early 60s. Some small stations continued to use vinyl 45s into the 80.

It is helpful, IMO, to think of a radio station as a business, where the product is entertainment, and the music is part of the product.
So, everyone would agree to play those records on the list - or brand new "pick of the week" records that had not charted yet.

Depends on who you ask. The GM and sales staff would say the product is the advertising. The music is the way the station attracts the audience, which the station sells to advertisers.

Once again, going back to the 60s, if you were a DJ at a radio station, the music was chosen for you.

But, it also eliminates the need for program directors. One national program director can choose the playlist for all Audacy stations with a "classic hits" format.

Earlier in this thread, I talked about trade charts, and chart reporters. Radio airplay charts go back to the 1940s. Today we have two accepted chart services: Billboard and Mediabase. If a radio station is a chart reporter, it has to have a local person who makes the playlist, and who also takes music calls from record labels. Otherwise the station won't be listed as a reporter, and won't get favored treatment from record labels. Radio stations want favored treatment because it gets them promotional goodies to give out to listeners.

What happens if KFRC and Audacy wants to "outsource" their play list? What is to prevent them from ordering a pre-packaged playlist from an independent music service that composes a playlist of oldies, then just sells the playlist to the station?

You're talking about two different things. The playlist has to be local for the chart, as I described. But some stations use music services to receive their music. One of the common ones is PlayMPE. It's an online service that provides downloads of new releases and other content from labels. Another is CDX, which is either downloadable or via CD. However, the big radio companies also can provide access to a hard drive where their owned stations can get their music.

Michael, or anyone.........Is this is what is happening? Not only is air talent obsolete, but also the program director and music director?

The air talent thing is a function of the station budget. If they can afford to pay local talent, then that's a good thing, because the local talent will represent the station to the public at events or gatherings, and the talent can read local commercials. Within the station, the talent may work live or VT. Or if there's no budget, the PD or GM may use VT from co-owned stations. Or use syndicated talent.

 

[DavidEduardo]

Then of course, in the digital age, this can be done via e-mail memos which go out to the staff. And the music can be downloaded onto a computer playlist, which can be interspersed with the spot ads or commercials.

Adding a song to the playlist requires timing and coding to match each station's definitions of tempo and other qualities.

But, it also eliminates the need for program directors. One national program director can choose the playlist for all Audacy stations with a "classic hits" format.

The PD does a lot more than picking music. Promotions, local contests, local events, sales promotions are mostly local. Scheduling syndicated shows requires control of promos, local items like weather and traffic. And even if there are only one or two local talents, they need airchecking, vacation scheduling. And production of local account spots takes time

However -- What happens if KFRC and Audacy wants to "outsource" their play list? What is to prevent them from ordering a pre-packaged playlist from an independent music service that makes a playlist of oldies, then just sells the playlist to the station?

In larger markets... meaning at least the top 100 and then even down to ones the size of Palm Springs or Huntsville or Tallahassee ... there are local (or shared in the region) music tests that tailor the sound to local tastes. So, unless you are in a very small market and using a national "satellite" network (actually delivered today in workparts on the web), the log will be done for each local station... even if there is group HQ supervision.

And each station has different spot loads and service elements, so adjustments have to be made by someone!

All the station has to do is open the software and download it, or better yet, just access it off the cloud.
So, even a program director's job is completely superfluous, because with streaming, and huge corporations, there's no need for any local programming. It can all be outsourced. This is kind of sad !

Yes, it can be done. But a locally programmed station will be much better in music, so most larger market stations ... even playing mostly gold... will do better with someone locally doing programming.

Michael, or anyone.........Is this is what is happening? Not only is air talent obsolete, but also the program director and music director? Thank you, from Daryl

For about the last 50 years, lots of formats have been syndicated and systems to run them unattended have existed. But when market size allows for local customization, that choice generally is more profitable. But I think we are now in the era of a hybrid: national programming assembled at the local level and integrated with station-specific elements.

 

[Daryl Lynn L.A.]

For about the last 50 years, lots of formats have been syndicated and systems to run them unattended have existed. But when market size allows for local customization, that choice generally is more profitable. But I think we are now in the era of a hybrid: national programming assembled at the local level and integrated with station-specific elements.

KFRC played all that music, no DJ, no weather, sports, freeway traffic, and only one commercial. And they still got that timing to work so perfectly their station break jingle played at exactly at 30 seconds to the top of the hour. That's amazing to my mind as a listener. Whatever software program they're using, it's very successful. -- Daryl

 

[michael hagerty]

We've covered this before a few times on the San Francisco board, but so no one is confused by what's been written above:

The revival of KFRC as a classic hits station at 106.9 FM came on May 17, 2007, replacing the "Free FM" talk format (the previous oldies format KFRC at 99.7 was replaced by "Movin 99.7" on September 22, 2006).

But less than a year and a half later, October 27, 2008, CBS killed KFRC for a simulcast of KCBS (740 AM). It kept the KFRC call letters, which is why the legal ID for KCBS includes "KFRC-FM and HD-1".

At that time, CBS put a jockless version of KFRC online and on 106.9 HD-2. The music library (which might be 200 songs) is meant to evoke the sound of KFRC (then on 610 AM) in its 1970s-era peak, and the jingles are from that era, including the station ID, which is voiced over the 1976-77 "You" campaign ID:

Apart from the one spot per hour (for years, it was GEICO---I haven't listened long enough recently to know what it is now, but it's almost certainly just a bonus spot for an advertiser on another station in the Audacy SF cluster), NOTHING---not the music, not the jingles, not the IDs---has been touched in 14-plus years.

The legal ID says "...and directly from KFRC-dot-com." That site hasn't existed in at least ten years---since then it's linked to Radio.com and now to Audacy.com.

Traffic updates the one commercial (which is just a matter of a keystroke or two) and IT maintains the server and that's it. It's the equivalent of a Spotify playlist with a commercial, a top-of-the-hour ID and some jingles. The songs are pretty uniformly three to four minutes long, so hitting the legal ID anywhere between :58 and :02 is no sweat---not that anyone in the building knows or cares.

 

[PTBoardOp94]

For example: In the old days, I guess, there would be a staff meeting of all the air talent, then the PD would announce the new playlist for the week, and copies of the Top 40 record list would be distributed. Then, the music director makes sure that those records are available in the DJ booth. In the 80's or so, the station moves from vinyl 45's to music recorded on "carts", correct?
So that is announced in a face to face meeting, just as all businesses have staff meetings and introduce their new products to the employees.

Few stations would have had something so formal as a staff meeting each week. If the station had live personalities around the clock, there would be no mutually agreeable time for a staff meeting - and the jock on the air would have had to divide his attention from doing his actual job.

More likely the PD/MD posted a typewritten list of the rotation categories records for the week in the studio, and made sure those records/carts were in the right places in the studio.