Production standards (or lack of)

[radiowizard101]

Listening to talk radio is a challenge. Where are the production values? I often hear 6 or 7 or 8 voice only spots in a row. Who wants to hear that? No background beds. No jingles. No SFX. Just blah blah blah with repeated 800 phone numbers. Where are the consultants? Are they as boring as the lazy non production between the talk segments?And broadcasters are wondering why listeners are abandoning the format. Could it be that the stop sets are as boring as the drivel coming out of the talkshow hosts mouths?

Few stations get this right. KFI is excellent regarding production values. They get the numbers too.

All talk radio should BE PRODUCED with plenty of bells and whistles. That is the recipe for good radio. NPR gets it. They always break it up with produced elements.

While I'm at it, the PUKE PROMO VOICES need to be rested too.

My rant is over. Have a nice day.

 

[TheBigA]

Listening to talk radio is a challenge. Where are the production values? I often hear 6 or 7 or 8 voice only spots in a row.

You realize the spots are the domain of the advertisers, not programmers. The spots aren't subject to the approval of consultants. The money is the money. Those are probably the only spots a talk station can attract these days, because all the bigger advertisers have "Do Not Buy" orders that keep them out of controversial programming.

NPR gets it by not having commercials. If AM talk could get its audience to pay for the programming, it would sound a lot better.

 

[DavidEduardo]

Few stations get this right. KFI is excellent regarding production values. They get the numbers too.

Yeah, the numbers. 19th in 25-54.

 

[wadio]

Yeah, the numbers. 19th in 25-54.

Apples to apples please, David. KFI does well compared to other talk stations.

And radiowizard101 is absolutely right in terms of production values. Whoever's running the ship at KFI knows what sounds good and has the guts to make it happen.

You realize the spots are the domain of the advertisers, not programmers. The spots aren't subject to the approval of consultants.

On KFI the Kars for Kids commercial is reworked as a voiceover with the jingle music softly in the background instead of sung by that whiny kid. Shows it can be done. Perhaps radio would get more respect from advertisers by standing up to them for what's actually in the best interest of both parties.

 

[Ravens]

I suggest you direct this to ad agencies, not the station. I'll bet if you paid attention, you'd notice local spots have production and national spots don't. I'd also bet the people at the stations you blame for this noticed it long before you and don't like it a bit more than you do.

 

[PTBoardOp94]

Who's running a 6 or 7 or 8 minute break set? About the longest I hear is 5, and that usually includes a news/weather/sports hit.

 

[Oscar Madison]

The production values in national spots described here show just how little regard ad agencies and clients have for radio - even those that still buy radio.

And remember this is right-wing talk radio: We are talking about advertisers who have not placed the format and its hosts on their do not buy lists - in other words, bottom feeders.

Not commercials on public radio? Maybe so, technically. But those enhanced underwriting announcements sound like commercials to most people. And for the record, those "spots" run on member stations (often during NPR programs) but not on NPR. Public radio spots are voice only but at least they don't do interminable stop sets. It would be nice to have opinions on public radio here from people who have actually listened to it (or worked in it).

 

[TheBigA]

Perhaps radio would get more respect from advertisers by standing up to them for what's actually in the best interest of both parties.

The first rule of business is the customer is always right. They're the ones paying for the time.

 

[Oscar Madison]

The first rule of business is the customer is always right. They're the ones paying for the time.

They are not really paying for time. They are paying for the attention of the audience. Attention is radio's product and it is not in a broadcaster's interest to degrade the product to make a quick sale. It also explains why blue chip "customers" no longer buy radio.

The phrase "the customer is always right" was coined by Harry Selfridge and he was was talking about customer service in a department store. He did not sell shoddy good nor compromise the integrity of his operation to pander to a customers' whims.

 

[TheBigA]

They are not really paying for time. They are paying for the attention of the audience. Attention is radio's product and it is not in a broadcaster's interest to degrade the product to make a quick sale. It also explains why blue chip "customers" no longer buy radio.

Not true. Lots of "blue chip customers" buy radio. Just not AM Talk radio. That's what this thread is about.

Advertisers are paying for time. They are charged for a combination of time and audience. No guarantee that they will get that audience's attention. That's up to the advertiser to GRAB the potential audience's attention.

The blue chip advertisers spend a lot of money studying the audience they want to reach. They know what they're doing. A lot of these voice-only spots are from billion dollar drug companies like Chattem who believe that hitting listeners over the head is a way to get their attention. They spend lots of money on AM radio, and no smart salesman is going to turn them down because of "production values." Radio stations aren't museums. They're businesses, and business isn't always pretty.

 

[DavidEduardo]

The production values in national spots described here show just how little regard ad agencies and clients have for radio - even those that still buy radio.

First, when you look at the lists of the "big spenders" on radio... the ones that are published in the trade newsletters every month or so... you see things like major retailers, fast food purveyors and large service providers. Here is a list from a random quarter out of the last year:

AT&T
Comcast XFinity
McDonald’s
T-Mobile
Verizon Wireless
GEICO
Coca-Cola Company
PepsiCo
JPMorgan Chase
Toyota Dealer Association

 

[DavidEduardo]

Apples to apples please, David. KFI does well compared to other talk stations.

On the sales level, KFI's 19th is no different than WGN's 24th. If you want a news/talker that does well, look at WSB in Atlanta... averaging top 5 in 25-54.

And radiowizard101 is absolutely right in terms of production values. Whoever's running the ship at KFI knows what sounds good and has the guts to make it happen.

The agency spots on any major market news/talk station are going to be similar, and the station has no control over them. KFI has better production than a news/talk station in Cleveland or Memphis might simply because its a bigger, higher billing market and in a big, high billing cluster that can afford really good production on local spots.

On KFI the Kars for Kids commercial is reworked as a voiceover with the jingle music softly in the background instead of sung by that whiny kid. Shows it can be done. Perhaps radio would get more respect from advertisers by standing up to them for what's actually in the best interest of both parties.

The Kars for Kids spot on KFI is what the agency sent; the voice is not a station voice but the agency voiceover talent. Most of us learned years if not decades ago not to mess with agency creative unless there was an obscenity/profanity or legal issue involved.

 

[Oscar Madison]

First, when you look at the lists of the "big spenders" on radio... the ones that are published in the trade newsletters every month or so... you see things like major retailers, fast food purveyors and large service providers. Here is a list from a random quarter out of the last year:

AT&T
Comcast XFinity
McDonald’s
T-Mobile
Verizon Wireless
GEICO
Coca-Cola Company
PepsiCo
JPMorgan Chase
Toyota Dealer Association

I don't see any major retailers. One fast food purveyor. One (financial) service provider.
The list is not for talk radio specifically, the topic here. Nor does it indicate which have these advertisers have talk radio, in general, or specific talk shows on their do not buy lists.
The only one of these I've heard in the past 20 years was MickeyD (but mostly I hear about their slumping sales).

 

[DavidEduardo]

I don't see any major retailers. One fast food purveyor. One (financial) service provider.

It's a top 10 list covering one season. Go further down and there is some of everything.

The list is not for talk radio specifically, the topic here. Nor does it indicate which have these advertisers have talk radio, in general, or specific talk shows on their do not buy lists.

Since so few news/talk stations are high enough rated in 25-54 to automatically get on buys, they often have a higher percentage of local business. They way they get on 25-54 buys is by pricing competitively the 25-54 they do have, and running more minutes of commercials an hour.

The only one of these I've heard in the past 20 years was MickeyD (but mostly I hear about their slumping sales).

Talkers generally do better with local agency than national, and better with local businesses than national ones. The national stuff gets sold based on pricing the 25-54 delivery right.

And many national and regional agency buys have "no talk / no controversy" buy restrictions.

 

[DavidEduardo]

They are not really paying for time. They are paying for the attention of the audience. Attention is radio's product and it is not in a broadcaster's interest to degrade the product to make a quick sale.

No.

An advertiser is buying time. Whether the audience pays attention is the responsibility of the creative, and in larger stations much of the creative is not done at the station.

The station is the messenger, not the message. We sell time to present a message. We don't guarantee the message itself.

 

[Oscar Madison]

No.

An advertiser is buying time. Whether the audience pays attention is the responsibility of the creative, and in larger stations much of the creative is not done at the station.

The station is the messenger, not the message. We sell time to present a message. We don't guarantee the message itself.

A rather cynical and amoral attitude, eh? I look forward to the day when stations get sued because of false or deceptive advertising - especially when commercials are seeming personal endorsements read by station personalities.

Your website is filled with back issues of trade publications with ads for stations claiming the trust and confidence of their listeners. Everything about positive attention, nothing about time. If it's all about time and only time, why buy those trade ads?

 

[DavidEduardo]

A rather cynical and amoral attitude, eh? I look forward to the day when stations get sued because of false or deceptive advertising - especially when commercials are seeming personal endorsements read by station personalities.

Not cynical and not amoral. Just realistic. We rent out our stations in minute and half-minute pieces to peddle goods and hawk wares. It has been that way since the 1920's in radio. It's been that way for centuries in the print media.

Interestingly, both "media" and "medium" come from the same Latin root, and the broadcast media is a medium by which an idea can be conveyed. During a stopset, radio stations are the highway, not the cars. We are just a way to get from one to many, and we sell access to this ability.

There are quite a few legal reasons why stations can't just "decide" not to run an ad. The most significant is the restraint of trade issue: if a station takes an ad for a pain reliever, they must take adds for all pain relief medications that so desire. You can also say, "I won't take ads for all hard liquors" but if you take a rum ad but refuse a vodka spot, you are in trouble.

The media is not the mediator for the usefulness, effectiveness of a product. There are a wealth of regulatory bodies that control what the consumer can buy, and many others that can weigh in on the ethics or honesty of a business, like the BBB.

Radio stations, or the NAB for that matter, can't test every product advertised nor can they check the business practices of every retailer and service provider. That's why all the other regulatory boards and agencies exist.

Your website is filled with back issues of trade publications with ads for stations claiming the trust and confidence of their listeners. Everything about positive attention, nothing about time. If it's all about time and only time, why buy those trade ads?

The ads are about reaching more ears than on "the other station". It's about placing your ad on a station that listeners like. But once the clock starts counting up to 60 or 30 seconds, it is up to the advertiser to make his presence work.

There are ads in publications on my site that sell an "underground" antenna that eliminates static and picks up stations across the nation. For a short time, it was in a half-dozen publications I have seen, and many more, no doubt, that are long gone. Snake oil of the purist kind. But how was the publisher of a radio fan magazine to know?

 

[TheBigA]

The one thing that hasn't been mentioned in this thread is that every element, every sound effect, every voice, and every piece of music must be licensed and cleared for use in an ad. You can't just play a hit song as a music bed for an ad. The rules are very different than straight airplay. This adds more cost to the spot production, and that cost is passed on to the advertiser.

 

[wadio]

The Kars for Kids spot on KFI is what the agency sent; the voice is not a station voice but the agency voiceover talent. Most of us learned years if not decades ago not to mess with agency creative unless there was an obscenity/profanity or legal issue involved.

The Kars for Kids spot on KFI is voiced by KFI's Tim Conway, Jr. -- likely a compromise to get the business but not punish the listeners.

A station I had a connection with at one time refused to accept ad production that didn't meet the standards of the format. They explained why to advertisers and offered to re-voice the spots at no charge. They were quite successful and didn't turn away much business. Their spot rate was high for the market, in part based on their reputation for "excellence."

That was some years ago when management actually believed in standards and radio was held in some esteem as an advertising vehicle, not a last resort because the spots are cheap and they'll do practically anything to get the buy.

My guess is that KFI is attempting to set and adhere to standards for its air sound and I applaud that. I'm not sure why the usual wet blankets here are so eager to shoot down anyone who's in favor of at least trying to improve radio from a programming perspective.

 

[TheBigA]

I'm not sure why the usual wet blankets here are so eager to shoot down anyone who's in favor of at least trying to improve radio from a programming perspective.

I don't see how complaining on a message board does anything to improve radio.

I do my part every day in my little square foot of the business. I'm not the only one.