• Get involved.
    We want your input!
    Apply for Membership and join the conversations about everything related to broadcasting.

    After we receive your registration, a moderator will review it. After your registration is approved, you will be permitted to post.
    If you use a disposable or false email address, your registration will be rejected.

    After your membership is approved, please take a minute to tell us a little bit about yourself.
    https://www.radiodiscussions.com/forums/introduce-yourself.1088/

    Thanks in advance and have fun!
    RadioDiscussions Administrators

Over modulating

No, I'm talking about multipath. The greater the frequency deviation, the more upper and lower sidebands. Multipath can cause phase and timing shifts which result in these sidebands interfering with frequencies closer to the carrier. That's why multipath is worse when listening in stereo and nearly disappears when you switch the receiver to mono.
 
Greater modulation also increases the possibility of synchronous AM because of the typical variation in amplitude response of the transmission chain passband. In multipath reception, sync AM modulation vectors of the two (or more) signals can add because of time delay, increasing the resulting AM many times, and when combined with carrier cancellation, can increase to the point of crossing the receivers quieting and phase lock thresholds. Transmitted sync AM at -35dB, for example, can result in more than 100% AM at a multipath receive site.

Less sync AM transmitted, less vector addition, etc. Its hard enough to get sync AM below -45dB at or below 100% total mod, going higher just makes it all worse. Not the whole story, but a very big contributor.

Frank's observation is also correct, but another reason multipath affects mono less is that the 50dB quieting signal strength is typically 20dB lower than required for 50dB quieting in stereo. Just a fact of life and bandwidth.
 
Yes. The L-R amplitude modulated sidebands are more fragile than the frequency modulated L+R main portion of the carrier. You said it better than I did and I thank you.
 
Thanks, part of what I said. Yes, the the 38kHz suppressed carrier DSB signal is fragile because the receiver bandwidth must be open to around 54kHz or a bit more, rather than 15kHz of the L+R/mono signal. That's about 4X the bandwidth, and thus much more noise spectrum is included, clean demodulation becomes impossible, and we get demodulated noise that is out of phase in both channels.

But I also mentioned sync AM of the RF carrier, which is a separate though related issue. It's created by non-flat RF passband response and a frequency modulated carrier. The result is an AM component that shouldn't technically be there in a perfect world. Non-flat passband response is typical of many transmitters, notably older tube-based IPA stages, but also includes any RF filters and antenna response. The modulation vectors of that signal, plus a delayed version of the same signal, can easily add to each other while the actual carrier is partially cancelled. The result is a multiplication of the AM component that can exceed 100% amplitude modulation. It's hard to explain simply in words. I did a presentation on this several decades ago at a broadcasters conference, demonstrated the effect live with signal generators and a scope, and had a (very crude) computer animation that showed the vector addition. Oh well, that was a long time ago. Maybe somebody remembers it if they're not dead.
 
I'm reading this article and it seems as no more than 82.5 khz or 110% mod is acceptable, right?
5% over 100% is allowed for stations running one or more subcarriers. That means if a station has a 67kHZ subcarrier, 105% is the limit. If the station is running both 67 and 92kHZ subcarriers, 105% is still technically the limit.

In reality, since the shutdown of many local field offices, the Commission doesn't run around checking station modulation. Most investigation and enforcement is usually started because of a complaint.
 
The L-R amplitude modulated sidebands are more fragile than the frequency modulate L+R main portion of the carrier.

Just to recall that, although the nominal 23-58 kHz L-R DSBSC* spectrum of an analog FM stereo baseband waveform is generated by an AM process, then that spectrum and a 19 kHz pilot signal are _TRANSMITTED_ using frequency modulation of the main carrier of the FM transmitter — by the same process and modulator used for the L+R (monaural) waveform.

*Double Side Band Suppressed Carrier
 
I'm reading this article and it seems as no more than 82.5 khz or 110% mod is acceptable, right?
You mean acceptable by the FCC, right?

Most receivers built before the current lines had a tuned bandwidth where modulation over about 130% would start causing ugliness (popping noise on some, as an example). Further, back in that era the Optimod would start reducing stereo injection around 125% modulation.

So there was a reason in the up to a little more than a decade ago not to push modulation too far due to receiver limitations.
 
MPXTool is made by Leif Claesson. Not made in china. And what is wrong with China for you?
Wherever made, these SDR devices/applications are made for hobbyists, not as a calibrated measurement tool to determine whether a broadcast station is operating legally or not. The ones made in China, in particular, cover a very wide range of frequencies/bands. When you try to cover that much real estate, the resolution and accuracy can vary significantly.
 
Wherever made, these SDR devices/applications are made for hobbyists, not as a calibrated measurement tool to determine whether a broadcast station is operating legally or not. The ones made in China, in particular, cover a very wide range of frequencies/bands. When you try to cover that much real estate, the resolution and accuracy can vary significantly.
This is not i got on my own personal tests against commercial modulation monitors from famous brands on my country. MPXTool gives me extremely precise readings. 99% of the dedicated modulation monitors i've tested gave me extremely low sensitivity and VERY BAD peak-precision. with some being worse than 2ms. showing varying and different levels of modulation with different levels of loudness.
 
This is not i got on my own personal tests against commercial modulation monitors from famous brands on my country. MPXTool gives me extremely precise readings. 99% of the dedicated modulation monitors i've tested gave me extremely low sensitivity and VERY BAD peak-precision. with some being worse than 2ms. showing varying and different levels of modulation with different levels of loudness.
The thing is when people say they are completely off or it displays incorrect data, that are right for a quick sec. When you calibrate the rtl sdr then you get the correct readings. It’s like using mirrors on a car without adjusting them first and expecting you’d able to see objects around your car “correctly “.
 
This is not i got on my own personal tests against commercial modulation monitors from famous brands on my country. MPXTool gives me extremely precise readings. 99% of the dedicated modulation monitors i've tested gave me extremely low sensitivity and VERY BAD peak-precision. with some being worse than 2ms. showing varying and different levels of modulation with different levels of loudness.
That's great and all, but it's still just a toy.
 
That's great and all, but it's still just a toy.
NO, It's not a toy. a SDR can pass extremely precise RF data if you know what you're doing. you probably think you know everything. SDR RTL's can give extremely precise modulation metering. MPXTool holds against the most expensive modulation metering hardware on world. with Nautel variant costing hundreds of dollars and running on extremely high quality SDR hardware. stop spreading your stupid opinion about something you don't know on internet please!
 
NO, It's not a toy. a SDR can pass extremely precise RF data if you know what you're doing. you probably think you know everything. SDR RTL's can give extremely precise modulation metering. MPXTool holds against the most expensive modulation metering hardware on world. with Nautel variant costing hundreds of dollars and running on extremely high quality SDR hardware. stop spreading your stupid opinion about something you don't know on internet please!
It's a toy. And it's more than my opinion. Professionals use professional equipment that can properly measure to ensure stations are kept within government standards. Using toys like consumer grade SDR's are fun and educational for amateurs and hobbyists, but someone using them as a measuring tool for deviation, spectral, or occupied bandwidth compliance without being able to confirm it with proper test equipment and methodology, are being foolish. The Nautel tools are expensive for a reason.
Was doing a similar comparison just the other day: One of my colleagues claimed that WinTV SDR used in combination with a $300 test software running on a laptop would equal the measuring capabilities of a $35,000 Trivini Streamscope for DTV measurements. Side by side, the Streamscope blew the SDR out of the water. Not just with accuracy, but with granularity and level of precision.
If you've been in this business as long as I have, you would know that already. This is a discussion board. You can disagree and get defensive about the capabilities of SDR's, but it doesn't mean I'm wrong.
 
Last edited:
It's a toy. And it's more than my opinion. Professionals use professional equipment that can properly measure to ensure stations are kept within government standards. Using toys like consumer grade SDR's are fun and educational for amateurs and hobbyists, but someone using them as a measuring tool for deviation, spectral, or occupied bandwidth compliance without being able to confirm it with proper test equipment and methodology, are being foolish. The Nautel tools are expensive for a reason.
Was doing a similar comparison just the other day: One of my colleagues claimed that WinTV SDR used in combination with a $300 test software running on a laptop would equal the measuring capabilities of a $35,000 Trivini Streamscope for DTV measurements. Side by side, the Streamscope blew the SDR out of the water. Not just with accuracy, but with granularity and level of precision.
If you've been in this business as long as I have, you would know that already. This is a discussion board. You can disagree and get defensive about the capabilities of SDR's, but it doesn't mean I'm wrong.
We are not talking about digital television here. We are talking about modulation deviation measuring using SDR. I've done extensive tests with different types of professional modulation monitors. Every model gave me different problems. From VERY BAD receivers with very bad signal reception to extremely inaccurate readings. SDR gave me the most precise metering even with bad signal reception and multipath. You keep saying the same thing all over and over. YOU SAYING THAT SDR's are bad doesn't means nothing to the actual thing. (Site Administrator Note: Offensive ad hominem comments removed.)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
It's a toy. And it's more than my opinion. Professionals use professional equipment that can properly measure to ensure stations are kept within government standards. Using toys like consumer grade SDR's are fun and educational for amateurs and hobbyists, but someone using them as a measuring tool for deviation, spectral, or occupied bandwidth compliance without being able to confirm it with proper test equipment and methodology, are being foolish. The Nautel tools are expensive for a reason.
Was doing a similar comparison just the other day: One of my colleagues claimed that WinTV SDR used in combination with a $300 test software running on a laptop would equal the measuring capabilities of a $35,000 Trivini Streamscope for DTV measurements. Side by side, the Streamscope blew the SDR out of the water. Not just with accuracy, but with granularity and level of precision.
If you've been in this business as long as I have, you would know that already. This is a discussion board. You can disagree and get defensive about the capabilities of SDR's, but it doesn't mean I'm wrong.
Remember there's not only you on this planet. Everyone is working with several types of equipment. Stop saying SDRs are bad just because you think you know something about SDRs and their linearity.
 
It's not first time you're being an very stupid person on this forum. Every thread you're one you say something stupid.
Wow, pretty childish and defensive aren't we? What, next are you going to start calling me a poo-poo head too?
Time to put on your big boy pants and discuss like an adult, otherwise your limited credibility continues to drop.
 
I guess you don't have much things to do on your life besides losing your time saying things you pretend you know on a radio forum
Ah, now you're questioning what I do with my time? So far, other than calling me names, you haven't shown you know much about this business. The only thing shown for sure are your insecurities.
 
Last edited:
Then there's the preemphasis issue - 75 microseconds (USA) - 50 microseconds (Europe and I don't know where else) which has an effect on the modulation % (audio frequency dependent).

Preemphasis is a brute force noise reduction system for the mono/stereo sum signal only.


Kirk Bayne
 
Status
This thread has been closed due to inactivity. You can create a new thread to discuss this topic.
Back
Top Bottom