H
Harvey_Dogg
Guest
Wow! The test failed to send the audio message to millions of people. And people here want to argue about it. Wow! I rest my case. It flopped.
-
Get involved.
We want your input!
Apply for Membership and join the conversations about everything related to broadcasting.
After we receive your registration, a moderator will review it. After your registration is approved, you will be permitted to post.
If you use a disposable or false email address, your registration will be rejected.
After your membership is approved, please take a minute to tell us a little bit about yourself.
https://www.radiodiscussions.com/forums/introduce-yourself.1088/
Thanks in advance and have fun!
RadioDiscussions Administrators
Finding out where systems do not work was the actual purpose of the test. A test is done to see if things all work; the result is finding what needs to be improved, fixed or changed.
You don't test things that are already proven to work. You test when you make improvements, changes and install new systems.
Every time they test, they will find new things to fix or improve. But the system is redundant, covering phones, radio, TV and even much of new media. If at least one of the systems worked in each are, the system is a success.
In college I found that it took nearly twice as long to get an A+ as it did to get an A-. Both were A's, With the time saved, I could take as many as 6 extra credits per semester and finish school in 3 instead of 4 years.
Funny that you assumed I was talking about successful monthly tests. I wasn't.
My experience with the monthly tests is checkered at best, especially in the 90s and 2000s, before the internet alert monitoring.
I get it; those who have no idea how the system works, or the complexity therein, are first to criticize testing. So far you haven't answered my question: How do you expect to identify potentially broken links in a system unless you test it?
Monthly tests are more complex than what a radio station issues as a weekly test. Every single state, county, city, town, and municipality has EAS equipment. Along with the local NWS offices, and of course, every public and commercial broadcast station, cable TV head end, and even SiriusXM locations in Atlanta, NYC, Los Angeles, and Washington D.C. So, given all the entities with EAS equipment used to forward, or initiate a monthly test, you don't expect something in the chain could get broken? And how would you know what link is potentially broken, if you don't test?
H
Harvey_Dogg
Guest
What cheek! You haven't addressed the problem, the cause, or offered a solution. You are only good at taking pot shots at people and. that is not supposed to be allowed.
You never answered any of my questions. Even a simple one like: How can you determine where problems are if you don't test?
Instead you come back with diversionary fained outrage, because it's pretty clear you don't know how complicated the EAS system is. Not intended to be cheeky, but a pretty clear observation.
I find it fascinating that you think the EAS is working and fixable. Maybe that's the real disconnect here.
Dutchman and I both write to you from small market America, and I understand you and David have worked for large broadcasters in major markets. I have no idea how well the EAS works in Los Angeles or New York, but I'm sure KFI puts more effort into maintaining their EAS equipment, and all other parts of their physical plant than, say WASK AM/FM, the Class C AM/Class A FM combo that serves as LP1 for the Lafayette, Indiana market.
Dutchman and I both write to you from small market America, and I understand you and David have worked for large broadcasters in major markets. I have no idea how well the EAS works in Los Angeles or New York, but I'm sure KFI puts more effort into maintaining their EAS equipment, and all other parts of their physical plant than, say WASK AM/FM, the Class C AM/Class A FM combo that serves as LP1 for the Lafayette, Indiana market.
The test went flawlessly here... near perfect audio and near perfect execution as monitored via satellite.. but other than that, EAS would be entirely useless for us unless it was a large scale national emergency and even then, its validity and usefulness would be in question.
I've worked with stations in markets as small as Lake City, FL (where?) and very remote and isolated ones like El Paso. And, of course, with stations nearly 1000 miles to the Southeast of the Florida coast were nothing works as well as predicted, ever.
The point is that we do tests to find deficiencies so they can be fixed.
The issues with the EAS gear are not generally at the station level where the gear is pretty foolproof. It is at the distribution points and regional hubs. Those are run by the government agencies, not private radio and TV and communications companies. We just rebroadcast what the government systems give us... just as we don't originate content, either.
Now that I truly believe. Is Santa Claus your nearest neighbor?El Paso's got nothing on my stations remoteness and isolation
My best was Lago Agrio, Ecuador. The town had a municipal snake catcher and it rained 365 days a year. At the time, there was no road in or out, and you had to take planes made by the Wright Brothers.
No, but i can hear KJNP 1170 North Pole 300 miles away before the sun rises in the winter, does that count?
Hee hee. That is why I asked about Santa being a neighbor. I think every "lower 48" DXer would love to hear a station licensed to "North Pole".
When I was DXing from Cleveland, I had to settle for Fairbanks. Nowhere near the mystique.
RWT and RMT do not test the equipment that FEMA has installed at the PEP stations transmitter site. That's what this national test did. It tested the Endec and associated equipment at the PEP station transmitter site that FEMA installed. PEP stations have two EAS boxes. The regular EAS box, usually at the studio, that monitors IPAWS, national weather, another LP1. Then at the transmitter there is an EAS box that FEMA installs and connects to with audio.
The reason the PEP station repeats the test is because their studio Endec picked up the test just transmitted by the FEMA Endec at the transmitter site either through self monitoring (yes we do that) or via one of the other monitored sources. Most people that are just listeners don't know that the PEP station has two EAS units in line. I have to admit it surprised me, but once I understood why the station repeated the test it made sense (you cant tell an EAS box like the Sage to ignore a national message.) FEMA is also aware that the test usually gets relayed twice by the originating PEP station. I look at it this way, at least the message got out. And listening to the second message lets you hear how well the studio Endec is picking up your station giving you a good idea of how your reception is for other stations in the area.
I also know that if the PEP station did not email results of the test that day (8/11/21), you got a phone call that night, asking how it went and to please email an audio recording of station relaying the information the next day. FEMA has an good idea of what needs to be fixed and improved upon.
Yes one of the satellite channels that radio stations are allowed to monitor for national EAS messages failed the test and did not actually broadcast the voice message. That means there is something to improve upon or fixed.
This also tested how participating stations monitored and relayed the test. Some stations care more than others in the quality of their set up. Some may take steps to improve the reliability of their EAS set up after this test, some wont.
There is alot about the Nation EAS system the lay person has no idea of or how it works. Here is a fun fact. FEMA ran a test around 2am during July and the first week of August, testing groups of PEP stations, to further work out some kinks. That test was actually sent as a RWT so it was not relayed. Most people had no idea that happened.
How do you know if something is working as designed. You test it. If something during the test fails you evaluate and fix it. Then test again.
A good example of testing something is a standby generator. You can start it and let it run with no load, lets call that your RWT. Then there is the load test to see if the generator will run the load it's supposed to provide back up power too. One test just sees if the engine starts and runs. The other test sees if it runs and will transfer the load and power your building (transfer switch gets tested along with the generator as a system.) If the generator system fails do you just throw up your hands and declare defeat, no you fix it and test again.
FEMA installs a generator at the PEP station too. They do yearly maintenance and load testing on that system. If it fails, they fix it.
Did the national EAS test work. Yes it worked. It showed there are areas for improvement some things may need to be fixed. I look at the national test as a yearly maintenance task. I would not be surprised if FEMA continues with some sort of yearly test. It will improve the system much faster if they do a national test each year.
To declare a test a failure when you have no idea of the test criteria, shows you are speaking about something you know nothing about. This test was not for the listener. It was for the radio stations and those that relay the national FEMA/presidential message. If you were not involved in relaying the message, then the test was not meant for you. If you knew what the test was about you would understand this was not a pass or fail test. It was "where do we need to improve". Like a skills test.
As a listener, if you heard the test and message great. If you didn't hear the message that's good to know too. It shows where the system needs a harder look and improvement. You don't need to be negative about it. EAS evolves year to year and is very dynamic. It even needs the occasional firmware upgrade and testing.
More fun EAS facts. Most common reasons a RMT did not run....We forgot, Was it our turn, you sure it was our turn. We never trained the new person how to do that. My favorite, I was on vacation that week. And that's at your local county level.
Want to say Hi to my friend Kelly, Always fun to read your words. Hi David always enjoy your words too. Shout out to your website we all spend way too much time getting drawn into. WorldRadioHistory dot com. You should make that a jingle.
P.S. This is only a test.
The reason the PEP station repeats the test is because their studio Endec picked up the test just transmitted by the FEMA Endec at the transmitter site either through self monitoring (yes we do that) or via one of the other monitored sources. Most people that are just listeners don't know that the PEP station has two EAS units in line. I have to admit it surprised me, but once I understood why the station repeated the test it made sense (you cant tell an EAS box like the Sage to ignore a national message.) FEMA is also aware that the test usually gets relayed twice by the originating PEP station. I look at it this way, at least the message got out. And listening to the second message lets you hear how well the studio Endec is picking up your station giving you a good idea of how your reception is for other stations in the area.
I also know that if the PEP station did not email results of the test that day (8/11/21), you got a phone call that night, asking how it went and to please email an audio recording of station relaying the information the next day. FEMA has an good idea of what needs to be fixed and improved upon.
Yes one of the satellite channels that radio stations are allowed to monitor for national EAS messages failed the test and did not actually broadcast the voice message. That means there is something to improve upon or fixed.
This also tested how participating stations monitored and relayed the test. Some stations care more than others in the quality of their set up. Some may take steps to improve the reliability of their EAS set up after this test, some wont.
There is alot about the Nation EAS system the lay person has no idea of or how it works. Here is a fun fact. FEMA ran a test around 2am during July and the first week of August, testing groups of PEP stations, to further work out some kinks. That test was actually sent as a RWT so it was not relayed. Most people had no idea that happened.
How do you know if something is working as designed. You test it. If something during the test fails you evaluate and fix it. Then test again.
A good example of testing something is a standby generator. You can start it and let it run with no load, lets call that your RWT. Then there is the load test to see if the generator will run the load it's supposed to provide back up power too. One test just sees if the engine starts and runs. The other test sees if it runs and will transfer the load and power your building (transfer switch gets tested along with the generator as a system.) If the generator system fails do you just throw up your hands and declare defeat, no you fix it and test again.
FEMA installs a generator at the PEP station too. They do yearly maintenance and load testing on that system. If it fails, they fix it.
Did the national EAS test work. Yes it worked. It showed there are areas for improvement some things may need to be fixed. I look at the national test as a yearly maintenance task. I would not be surprised if FEMA continues with some sort of yearly test. It will improve the system much faster if they do a national test each year.
To declare a test a failure when you have no idea of the test criteria, shows you are speaking about something you know nothing about. This test was not for the listener. It was for the radio stations and those that relay the national FEMA/presidential message. If you were not involved in relaying the message, then the test was not meant for you. If you knew what the test was about you would understand this was not a pass or fail test. It was "where do we need to improve". Like a skills test.
As a listener, if you heard the test and message great. If you didn't hear the message that's good to know too. It shows where the system needs a harder look and improvement. You don't need to be negative about it. EAS evolves year to year and is very dynamic. It even needs the occasional firmware upgrade and testing.
More fun EAS facts. Most common reasons a RMT did not run....We forgot, Was it our turn, you sure it was our turn. We never trained the new person how to do that. My favorite, I was on vacation that week. And that's at your local county level.
Want to say Hi to my friend Kelly, Always fun to read your words. Hi David always enjoy your words too. Shout out to your website we all spend way too much time getting drawn into. WorldRadioHistory dot com. You should make that a jingle.
P.S. This is only a test.
I mean, obviously there are problems with the communications between FEMA and the PEP stations, and that was the object of the test last week.
But the EAS is only as strong as the weakest station in the daisy chain. And there are some very weak links in my stations' link to the state PEP. I don't wish to air my dirty laundry, but I propose it should be a prerequisite that any relay stations called out in the EAS plans should have a working genset.
My expectations for an emergency alert system are really high. It should be expected to work work 99% of the time during regular tests, with the idea that, during an actual emergency, the probability of successful transmission goes down (possibly a lot, depending on the nature) That means about three failed monthly tests in the entire history of the EAS.
There have been individual years where my stations have missed receiving three monthly tests.
Ergo the system is broken.
H
Harvey_Dogg
Guest
A self driving car crashes and bursts into flames. A medical lab's hopeful cure for cancer doesn't work. Only here would one find people arguing these were really successful tests. And, how dare one say otherwise.
This board is just a little private club and I'm not welcome here. So, you guys just go on .praising sloppy work and patting your friends on the back.
I would have drooped this matter. But you attack the whistle blower. So, now I will complain about it to the government. The EAS system truly sucks. This could put lives in danger and the American people deserve better.
This is my last post. Good Bye!
This board is just a little private club and I'm not welcome here. So, you guys just go on .praising sloppy work and patting your friends on the back.
I would have drooped this matter. But you attack the whistle blower. So, now I will complain about it to the government. The EAS system truly sucks. This could put lives in danger and the American people deserve better.
This is my last post. Good Bye!
Last edited by a moderator:
You know this how? Do you have anything to do with a PEP station? Monthly test are sent at the state/county level not at the Federal/FEMA level. So you really don't know all the moving pieces and how it works. Do you even know your own states EAS plan. It varies state to state. If you were actually in charge of logging EAS and doing the paper work at your stations, you would know that the agency that did not send the RMT is supposed to give a reason why the test was not run, and you are to put that reason on the weekly EAS print out/paperwork. If your stations were not logging the reason they did not get a RMT then the stations EAS logging and verification system is broken and subject to FCC fine.
EAS works and does save lives, weather warnings are an example of that. Flying_Dutchman what is the testing criteria? Again this was not a test for you to participate in. I would encourage you to read your states EAS plan. It would give you insight on how it works.
North Pole is just up the road form Fairbanks, so you were close
For a start, you admitted it this morning. Second, it's obvious from the tests through the years.
Trust me, I do. I really don't appreciate you and Kelly presuming anyone who considers the operation of the system poor just don't understand how it's supposed to work.
Yes, I am very aware of my state's EAS plan, and all of its revisions since the early 2000s.
I have been responsible for EAS logging at a very small-time station. I am not currently and have not been for a long time. Almost all of the EAS failures were because one station in the chain between the state primary station and my station didn't know what they were doing.
There were enough problems like this that the state EAS plan was amended such that any local primary station could originate its own RMTs. Here's a snip from the state EAS plan:
Which, of course, defeats the purpose.
It was a test that was relayed, ergo it was a test for everyone.
I agree that EAS, and particularly weather radios that alarm on SAME codes, are a good thing. For the purpose of relaying weather warnings, my stations have always monitored NOAA Weather Radio. It's much more reliable than the relay system through commercial networks.
- Status