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KZJK SSB Stereo

RomanPort

RomanPort

Hi!

Was listening to the radio today with my SDR and switched it over to KZJK (104.1 JACK FM) and noticed a big change...they're using SSB stereo now!

1630554716742.png

Basically, as I understand it at least, instead of the traditional L-R signal, you use only the upper sideband of it and then double the amplitude. I believe it's compatible with all older radios and deals with multipath interference better. I haven't had enough time to really listen to the difference yet, but I definitely immediately noticed a difference in the sound, even before I even noticed it was SSB. Here are my first impressions after a few minutes of listening:

* Stereo separation is significantly better, at least with my current setup.
* I can't quite put my finger on what, but the sound is definitely different from what I've heard on FM before. I can't even decide if it's bad change or not either.
* To me, it sounds like there are a lot more lows than highs in the sound. This was especially noticeable during "Jump" by Van Halen.
* Right off the bat, I'm pretty sure I'm hearing distortion in the audio. This could be my setup again though.
* The audio has a suuuuper tight rolloff into the stereo pilot. Will that cause problems with older radios?

I'm also connected to this SDR over an RDP connection with a compressed audio stream from 4 hours away, but I haven't noticed a change in audio quality elsewhere. I might also have no idea what I'm talking about, but I am fascinated by this kind of stuff. This is the first high power station in the area I'm aware of that uses SSB stereo, the only other being relatively low power KBEM. I'll get some side-by-side examples later tomorrow. Thanks for reading!

(p.s. If anyone working at KZJK is reading this, the station's "now playing" feature has been busted both on RDS and on your website for almost a month now. It just says "JACK-FM Playing What We Want" instead of the current song playing. I'm begging you to fix it!)
 
Audacy, iHeart, and Tune-In are all horrible when it comes to RDS/Now Playing. This feature works sporadically on all 3 platforms and I tend to avoid them for that reason. There is an app titled "My Tuner FM" or something similar to that where the system works very well on almost any station I listen to but the ads when you switch stations sometimes make the app difficult to navigate. I find that the individual station apps and SXM app work about the best for song information.
 
RomanPort said:
* To me, it sounds like there are a lot more lows than highs in the sound. This was especially noticeable during "Jump" by Van Halen.
* Right off the bat, I'm pretty sure I'm hearing distortion in the audio. This could be my setup again though.
* The audio has a suuuuper tight rolloff into the stereo pilot. Will that cause problems with older radios?
Click to expand...
The distortion is how extreme the ssb is, or over modulation!

The tight roll-off would make sense less is better in this case.
 
I just tuned in on my conventional Kenwood receiver. I definitely hear a difference. The audio sounds "wider" with a higher sound quality overall.

Is this typical for Audacy stations? In my experience, Audacy stations tend to have a better-engineered audio. This was true before the rebrand to Audacy, too.

I'm also surprised that Minnesota Public Radio doesn't take this approach. Their audience is more attune to higher audio quality.
 
pattywells said:
I just tuned in on my conventional Kenwood receiver. I definitely hear a difference. The audio sounds "wider" with a higher sound quality overall.

Is this typical for Audacy stations? In my experience, Audacy stations tend to have a better-engineered audio. This was true before the rebrand to Audacy, too.

I'm also surprised that Minnesota Public Radio doesn't take this approach. Their audience is more attune to higher audio quality.
Click to expand...
Not sure if it's typical for Audacy, but I can definitely notice a difference from how it was before. I think it sounds better too.

Yeah, I am kind of surprised The Current (from MPR) doesn't take this approach either. The sound quality of their transmitter is already pretty good though because they don't overprocess the crap out of the audio. Their station is a lot quieter than everything else but has a lot better dynamic range.
 
RomanPort said:
As I understand it at least, instead of the traditional L-R signal, you use only the upper sideband of it and then double the amplitude. I believe it's compatible with all older radios and deals with multipath interference better. I haven't had enough time to really listen to the difference yet, but I definitely immediately noticed a difference in the sound, even before I even noticed it was SSB.
Click to expand...
Another station using SSB stereo is 106.7 KJUG in Tulare (Fresno) California.

Like you, I noticed something was different when I first heard it, but I couldn't figure out why until looking at the signal in SDR.

At first I thought it was a technical problem, but it's been like that for years.

I know of SSB from ham radio, but I never knew such a thing was possible with a regular station (considering all the other regulations which the signal must conform to).
 
RomanPort said:
Not sure if it's typical for Audacy, but I can definitely notice a difference from how it was before. I think it sounds better too.

Yeah, I am kind of surprised The Current (from MPR) doesn't take this approach either. The sound quality of their transmitter is already pretty good though because they don't overprocess the crap out of the audio. Their station is a lot quieter than everything else but has a lot better dynamic range.
Click to expand...
Very good point. Audio quality on the FM dial (and audio quality on most technologies) has degraded over time. For example, KDWB sounds extra loud and over-processed. The new KNOF sounds quiet and narrow, especially compared to the previous GO-Radio format. Ironically, recording equipment has gotten better over time. Most people don't care about audio quality, so it kind of falls by the wayside.

I do most of my listening to MPR stations (The Current and Classical MPR) on HD radio and streaming. I think MPR has wonderful streaming audio quality. The HD radio quality is much better than most other HD stations that I've heard (It's still not great, due to the constraints of the HD technology. But hey, at least they try).
 
RomanPort said:
Hi!

Was listening to the radio today with my SDR and switched it over to KZJK (104.1 JACK FM) and noticed a big change...they're using SSB stereo now!

View attachment 2153

Basically, as I understand it at least, instead of the traditional L-R signal, you use only the upper sideband of it and then double the amplitude. I believe it's compatible with all older radios and deals with multipath interference better. I haven't had enough time to really listen to the difference yet, but I definitely immediately noticed a difference in the sound, even before I even noticed it was SSB. Here are my first impressions after a few minutes of listening:

* Stereo separation is significantly better, at least with my current setup.
* I can't quite put my finger on what, but the sound is definitely different from what I've heard on FM before. I can't even decide if it's bad change or not either.
* To me, it sounds like there are a lot more lows than highs in the sound. This was especially noticeable during "Jump" by Van Halen.
* Right off the bat, I'm pretty sure I'm hearing distortion in the audio. This could be my setup again though.
* The audio has a suuuuper tight rolloff into the stereo pilot. Will that cause problems with older radios?

I'm also connected to this SDR over an RDP connection with a compressed audio stream from 4 hours away, but I haven't noticed a change in audio quality elsewhere. I might also have no idea what I'm talking about, but I am fascinated by this kind of stuff. This is the first high power station in the area I'm aware of that uses SSB stereo, the only other being relatively low power KBEM. I'll get some side-by-side examples later tomorrow. Thanks for reading!

(p.s. If anyone working at KZJK is reading this, the station's "now playing" feature has been busted both on RDS and on your website for almost a month now. It just says "JACK-FM Playing What We Want" instead of the current song playing. I'm begging you to fix it!)
Click to expand...
104.1 still sounds like junk in my opinion. 102.9's RDS is also stuck on something like "102.9 The Wolf The Twin Cities New Country Leader."
 
104.1-HD2 has also made changes. Now it sounds very low and unprocessed, but the extremely annoying high-end sound is gone.
 
I had a chance to demo SSB stereo on Omnia 11 on a test transmitter. I did not like the way audio sounded on SSB vs. normal stereo in my car. Other engineers also heard the difference and agreed to leave SSB off.
 
Yeah ssb is tricky cause it can add excess distortion. I believe the 9 had it.
Anton P said:
I had a chance to demo SSB stereo on Omnia 11 on a test transmitter. I did not like the way audio sounded on SSB vs. normal stereo in my car. Other engineers also heard the difference and agreed to leave SSB off.
Click to expand...
 
^^^
...at least 10 or 12 are so noisy in stereo that I
normally have to switch to mono to merely be able to
understand the content of the program. For every one of
those 10 to 12 stations, depressing the noise-reduction and
multipath-reduction buttons on the Carver TX -11 tuner
made the reception quality acceptable and listenable!


Has this tech ever been implemented in SDR based FM stereo receivers (IMHO, this Carver concept would have been a big help in car FM stereo radios, but the Carver co. didn't make car radios)?


Kirk Bayne
 
I listened to 104.1 for a while today. It sounds horrible. Way too muddy-sounding. There is virtually no high end anymore, all the other stations are so much louder and cleaner sounding. Nobody seems to be able to find that perfect sound, either it's muddy sounding or there is way too much high-end. I'm very critical of audio processing, and the only TC stations I find that sound good is 107.9 or 92.5. The other good-sounding station is 105.7, granted they are driving things a bit hard, if they fixed that, 105.7 would absolutely hands down be the best sounding TC station.
 
NBRadioMN said:
I listened to 104.1 for a while today. It sounds horrible. Way too muddy-sounding. There is virtually no high end anymore, all the other stations are so much louder and cleaner sounding. Nobody seems to be able to find that perfect sound, either it's muddy sounding or there is way too much high-end. I'm very critical of audio processing, and the only TC stations I find that sound good is 107.9 or 92.5. The other good-sounding station is 105.7, granted they are driving things a bit hard, if they fixed that, 105.7 would absolutely hands down be the best sounding TC station.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I agree that there is virtually no high-end anymore. I don't think it sounds horrible, but it's definitely a lot different from how it sounded previously. Hell, a friend of mine who only listens to JACK and only in the car (I guess like more regular people, heh) told me that he heard a big difference without me even asking.

I keep meaning to record some clips to compare to my previous recordings of JACK, but frankly I'm a bit burned out on the format, haha.
 
RomanPort said:
Yeah, I agree that there is virtually no high-end anymore. I don't think it sounds horrible, but it's definitely a lot different from how it sounded previously. Hell, a friend of mine who only listens to JACK and only in the car (I guess like more regular people, heh) told me that he heard a big difference without me even asking.

I keep meaning to record some clips to compare to my previous recordings of JACK, but frankly I'm a bit burned out on the format, haha.
Click to expand...
The same five songs that you'll NEVER EVER get annoyed of. :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
 
RomanPort said:
Yeah, I agree that there is virtually no high-end anymore. I don't think it sounds horrible, but it's definitely a lot different from how it sounded previously. Hell, a friend of mine who only listens to JACK and only in the car (I guess like more regular people, heh) told me that he heard a big difference without me even asking.

I keep meaning to record some clips to compare to my previous recordings of JACK, but frankly I'm a bit burned out on the format, haha.
Click to expand...
If you're on Facebook and in the FM DX Watchdogs or I Love AM Radio group, you'll most likely know who one of the two people referenced is, but they both hate 104.1's old sound with a passion... (or at least one with a passion) Guessing they don't like the new sound much better lol... I will ask them soon.
 
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