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K-Earth... Number 1 in the nation? Well, now that CBS FM is gone...

Re: Oldies are dying off.

> Classical has not been a great ratings or revenue winner is
> Los Angeles ever. 92.3 KFAC was junked by Evergreen Media in
> 1989 because it had much less than zero growth potential.

Also, Evergreen had a huge debt service that Classical would never bring in enough revenue to cover. (Of course, neither did "Rock With A Beat", but that's a different thread for us to discuss sometime.)

> And now KMZT is off about 1/3 of their ratings (and revenue)
> over the last year and slipping. He'll change the format to
> oldies given the opportunity (K-Earth's demise). It won't be
> the first time he has changed the format of the FM...or AM's
> (which he changes almost annually on average).

I very much agree. Saul has, from time to time, sold off stations to keep KMZT afloat. (AM 1510 in the Bay Area is the latest.) All it would take is KRTH switching while KMZT is in a cash flow slump, and Saul will seriously consider the idea.

Besides, a 70s-focused Oldies on 105.1 could be sold in combo with 1260/540.
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Re: Oldies are dying off.

> > Classical has not been a great ratings or revenue winner
> is
> > Los Angeles ever. 92.3 KFAC was junked by Evergreen Media
> in
> > 1989 because it had much less than zero growth potential.
>
> Also, Evergreen had a huge debt service that Classical would
> never bring in enough revenue to cover. (Of course, neither
> did "Rock With A Beat", but that's a different thread for us
> to discuss sometime.)

Jimmy de Castro and Scott Ginsburg had no intention of operating a classical station from they day Evergreen Media bought KFAC. But Rock With A Beat is just a bad memory in the history of Los Angeles radio. It was originally intended to be an AOR with Mark and Brian doing mornings.

>
> > And now KMZT is off about 1/3 of their ratings (and
> revenue)
> > over the last year and slipping. He'll change the format
> to
> > oldies given the opportunity (K-Earth's demise). It won't
> be
> > the first time he has changed the format of the FM...or
> AM's
> > (which he changes almost annually on average).
>
> I very much agree. Saul has, from time to time, sold off
> stations to keep KMZT afloat. (AM 1510 in the Bay Area is
> the latest.) All it would take is KRTH switching while KMZT
> is in a cash flow slump, and Saul will seriously consider
> the idea.
>
> Besides, a 70s-focused Oldies on 105.1 could be sold in
> combo with 1260/540.
>
Now if he only had decent facilities to broadcast from. It may be in Westwood - next to the 405 freeway - but it is a toilet.
 
Re: Oldies are dying off.

All it would take is KRTH switching while
> KMZT
> > is in a cash flow slump, and Saul will seriously consider
> > the idea.
> >
> > Besides, a 70s-focused Oldies on 105.1 could be sold in
> > combo with 1260/540.
> >
> Now if he only had decent facilities to broadcast from. It
> may be in Westwood - next to the 405 freeway - but it is a
> toilet.
>
Many a great radio station has had poor, ugly facilities. Remember, a great staff, superior programming and marketing are the qualities that can make a good station special.

You know, 105.1 could be a great oldies station station. But what would make it any better or more desirable to advertisers or listeners than KRTH which already has a name in the format?
In another thread I suggested that 101.1 focus more on 70's and newer with just the best of the 60's and 50's.

Other than not having stations to sell in combo as 1260/540, why would you feel that K-Earth can't rebound?
 
Re: Oldies are dying off.

> Many a great radio station has had poor, ugly facilities.
> Remember, a great staff, superior programming and marketing
> are the qualities that can make a good station special.

This is Loa Angeles 2005 and Saul Levine is one of the cheapest of the cheap. He could attract a great staff only because there are so many great market veterans out of work - but that are still here in L.A.. But he wouldn't pay well or have a good work environment.

>
> You know, 105.1 could be a great oldies station station.
> But what would make it any better or more desirable to
> advertisers or listeners than KRTH which already has a name
> in the format?

Nothing. But he wouldn't do until K-Earth goes away. It would just be one dying format supplanting another one. But he has low overhead so he could make a bigger profit off it than classical.

> In another thread I suggested that 101.1 focus more on 70's
> and newer with just the best of the 60's and 50's.
>
> Other than not having stations to sell in combo as 1260/540,
> why would you feel that K-Earth can't rebound?
>

You've read mine and others posts of why Infinity blew-up stations in New York and Chicago and why other oldies stations nationwide are being blown up. And how K-Earth is hammered in. I'm not going to repeat myself again.

And btw, 1260/540 are no threat to anyone including K-Earth.

If anyone did oldies in this town, after the demise of K-Earth, they should try be much heavier on rhythmic oldies. It would grab Hot's older demos and grab much of K-Earth's.
 
Re: Oldies are dying off.

> You've read mine and others posts of why Infinity blew-up
> stations in New York and Chicago and why other oldies
> stations nationwide are being blown up. And how K-Earth is
> hammered in. I'm not going to repeat myself again.
>
> And btw, 1260/540 are no threat to anyone including K-Earth.
>

They're no "real" threat to K-Earth either. K-Earth is their own worst enemy.

>
> If anyone did oldies in this town, after the demise of
> K-Earth, they should try be much heavier on rhythmic oldies.
> It would grab Hot's older demos and grab much of K-Earth's.
>

Well that's what I suggested as well. To repeat myself, I would include
Hispanic air talent in key shifts as well. As for Infinity in New York, well not every city is the same. They may have been premature in blowing up CBS-FM.
There's been quite a backlash and it was a station that while seeing erosion, still had decent market position. Infinity and many others would argue that it was bound to happen, and they just went a little early, but it still wasn't the most popular decision for them to make. Like many companies, they'll learn that you can't treat every city in the same way. But they've treated their stations this way through out their history and haven't picked up on that fact yet.
 
Re: Oldies are dying off.

> > You've read mine and others posts of why Infinity blew-up
> > stations in New York and Chicago and why other oldies
> > stations nationwide are being blown up. And how K-Earth is
>
> > hammered in. I'm not going to repeat myself again.
> >
> > And btw, 1260/540 are no threat to anyone including
> K-Earth.
> >
>
> They're no "real" threat to K-Earth either. K-Earth is
> their own worst enemy.
>
> >
> > If anyone did oldies in this town, after the demise of
> > K-Earth, they should try be much heavier on rhythmic
> oldies.
> > It would grab Hot's older demos and grab much of
> K-Earth's.
> >
>
> Well that's what I suggested as well. To repeat myself, I
> would include
> Hispanic air talent in key shifts as well. As for Infinity
> in New York, well not every city is the same. They may have
> been premature in blowing up CBS-FM.
> There's been quite a backlash and it was a station that
> while seeing erosion, still had decent market position.
> Infinity and many others would argue that it was bound to
> happen, and they just went a little early, but it still
> wasn't the most popular decision for them to make. Like
> many companies, they'll learn that you can't treat every
> city in the same way. But they've treated their stations
> this way through out their history and haven't picked up on
> that fact yet.
>

Oldies stations have been blown up over the last few months in dozens of cities nationwide. This isn't just in New York or Chicago or with Infinity. Oldies is fast becoming a specialty format or one that is relegated to Sirius or XM (which btw are heavily advertising in newspapers in both cities to attract those who use to listen to Infinty's oldies stations). The ad dollars just aren't there for oldies stations anymore espcially with Jack or Jack-like stations coming along. Oldies must be relegated to inferior stations in the top markets to survive, if at all. Might be a good format for 103.1 or 93.5 when K-Earth finally goes. Entravision does own a locally programmed english language oldies station in Sacramento. Don't know about Styles IF they ever secure the financing to buy 93.5.
 
Re: Oldies are dying off.

>
> Oldies stations have been blown up over the last few months
> in dozens of cities nationwide. This isn't just in New York
> or Chicago or with Infinity. Oldies is fast becoming a
> specialty format or one that is relegated to Sirius or XM
> (which btw are heavily advertising in newspapers in both
> cities to attract those who use to listen to Infinty's
> oldies stations). The ad dollars just aren't there for
> oldies stations anymore espcially with Jack or Jack-like
> stations coming along. Oldies must be relegated to inferior
> stations in the top markets to survive, if at all. Might be
> a good format for 103.1 or 93.5 when K-Earth finally goes.
> Entravision does own a locally programmed english language
> oldies station in Sacramento. Don't know about Styles IF
> they ever secure the financing to buy 93.5.
>

Excellent points (I can't believe I am saying that... )

There still are over 700 oldies stations per M Street, but they are shrinking especially in smaller markets where agency buisness that is demo driven is all important.
 
Re: Oldies are dying off.

> >
> > Oldies stations have been blown up over the last few
> months
> > in dozens of cities nationwide. This isn't just in New
> York
> > or Chicago or with Infinity. Oldies is fast becoming a
> > specialty format or one that is relegated to Sirius or XM
> > (which btw are heavily advertising in newspapers in both
> > cities to attract those who use to listen to Infinty's
> > oldies stations). The ad dollars just aren't there for
> > oldies stations anymore espcially with Jack or Jack-like
> > stations coming along. Oldies must be relegated to
> inferior
> > stations in the top markets to survive, if at all. Might
> be
> > a good format for 103.1 or 93.5 when K-Earth finally goes.
>
> > Entravision does own a locally programmed english language
>
> > oldies station in Sacramento. Don't know about Styles IF
> > they ever secure the financing to buy 93.5.
> >
>
> Excellent points (I can't believe I am saying that... )
>
> There still are over 700 oldies stations per M Street, but
> they are shrinking especially in smaller markets where
> agency buisness that is demo driven is all important.
>




He has good points except I disagree about a fringe stick for Oldies. I think that 105.1 is the best choice and Saul could actually keep some of his cume :)

The problem with Classical is you're looking at $5-$6 million a year tops...

<P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by radioresearcher on 06/09/05 08:19 PM.</FONT></P>
 
Re: Oldies are dying off.

> He has good points except I disagree about a fringe stick
> for Oldies. I think that 105.1 is the best choice and Saul
> could actually keep some of his cume :)
>
> The problem with Classical is you're looking at $5-$6
> million a year tops...
>

Gee, remember when 5 to 6 million was considered decent money?
I still think New York was a mistake at this point in time...
And yes I'm aware of all the oldies stations that have been dropping like flies.
I agree that a format change is due in many of those cities, but like I said before, not all markets are the same. That's the problem with the cookie cutter approach.
 
Re: Oldies are dying off.

>
> The problem with Classical is you're looking at $5-$6
> million a year tops...
>

It did a bit over $7 million last year.
 
Re: Oldies are dying off.

> >
> > The problem with Classical is you're looking at $5-$6
> > million a year tops...
> >
>
> It did a bit over $7 million last year.
>

And that's with a signal on top of Mt. Wilson. I'd say it could go on 103.1 - but it would bill half that.

Yikes...

If it wasn't paid for, it wouldn't be in the format. Couldn't keep it running.
 
Re: Oldies are dying off.

Well acording to you all, 103.1 can never do better than a 1.0 so why bother?


> > >
> > > The problem with Classical is you're looking at $5-$6
> > > million a year tops...
> > >
> >
> > It did a bit over $7 million last year.
> >
>
> And that's with a signal on top of Mt. Wilson. I'd say it
> could go on 103.1 - but it would bill half that.
>
> Yikes...
>
> If it wasn't paid for, it wouldn't be in the format.
> Couldn't keep it running.
>
 
Re: Oldies are dying off.

> Well acording to you all, 103.1 can never do better than a
> 1.0 so why bother?

Classical would probably work on the 103.1s for the reason they are where they are. Demographics.

KDLD has its best signal on the Westside and KDLE is strongest in southern Orange County. Lots of high-income listeners there, and that is the demo Classical stations cater to.

Even a 1.0 with good 25-54 demos would work for advertisers wanting to reach upper-income level listeners. Think Mercedes Benz.
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103.1 tough freq for any classical music

Great, except the signal would be the problem for ANY classical music. During the more quiet passages, the signal's hiss and hash (caused by the simulcast signals interfering with each other in various areas) would make it hard to listen to, especially if you're driving (even a Mercedes!). The transmitter for Orange County straddles the city line between Costa Mesa and Newport Beach, so coastal-central Orange County also gets 103.1 FM reception OK.
 
Re: 103.1 tough freq for any classical music

> Great, except the signal would be the problem for ANY
> classical music. During the more quiet passages, the
> signal's hiss and hash (caused by the simulcast signals
> interfering with each other in various areas) would make it
> hard to listen to, especially if you're driving (even a
> Mercedes!).

I wonder how much of a problem that was back when (as KSRF and KOCM) both stations were Easy Listening/Beautiful Music.
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Re: 103.1 tough freq for any classical music

> > Great, except the signal would be the problem for ANY
> > classical music. During the more quiet passages, the
> > signal's hiss and hash (caused by the simulcast signals
> > interfering with each other in various areas) would make
> it
> > hard to listen to,[...]

> I wonder how much of a problem that was back when (as KSRF
> and KOCM) both stations were Easy Listening/Beautiful Music.
>
I used to listen to KSRF in 1988-1992 or so, when I lived out on
the Westside.

I don't recall the simulcast being a problem, except maybe in
Long Beach where the signal was on the flaky side (this is roughly
right between Santa Monica and Newport Beach, where the signals
come from)

It was certainly not a problem in West LA, where the signal was very good.

I don't think either signal is competitive with, or a replacement for,
the rest of the city-grade FM stations that one can hear all over
the region.
 
Re: 103.1 tough freq for any classical music

> I don't recall the simulcast being a problem, except maybe
> in
> Long Beach where the signal was on the flaky side (this is
> roughly
> right between Santa Monica and Newport Beach, where the
> signals
> come from)

Which is right about where you would expect a problem.

> It was certainly not a problem in West LA, where the signal
> was very good.

That's pretty much my point from earlier in the thread. On the Westside and in South OC, where there is little chance of interference from signal overlap, a high-income appeal format like Classical would have a chance. Not in the ratings, but certainly financially.

> I don't think either signal is competitive with, or a
> replacement for,
> the rest of the city-grade FM stations that one can hear all
> over
> the region.

The presumption for this is that 105.1 can't stay Classical forever, and what signal(s) the format could move to and remain viable longer.
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Re: Oldies are dying off.

> > Well acording to you all, 103.1 can never do better than a
>
> > 1.0 so why bother?
>
> Classical would probably work on the 103.1s for the reason
> they are where they are. Demographics.
>
> KDLD has its best signal on the Westside and KDLE is
> strongest in southern Orange County. Lots of high-income
> listeners there, and that is the demo Classical stations
> cater to.
>
> Even a 1.0 with good 25-54 demos would work for advertisers
> wanting to reach upper-income level listeners. Think
> Mercedes Benz.
>
K.M. is correct that the signals are perfect for Classical ... However, where I disagree is that Saul is getting a 1.2-1.5 with it on a full signal on top of Mt. Wilson. At best, what could it do on this one - likely a 0.6-0.8?

Also, Saul is doing about $7 million (as David said) - so what is the most it could do revenue wise - $4 million - maybe $5 million.

Since Entravision paid $85 million for them (and anyone buying them would likely pay more) - you couldn't pay debt service with Classical...

But the format/signal contour theory is correct.
 
Re: Oldies are dying off.

Classical require a good strong noise free signal.
103.1 does not offer that and classical puist would not stand for it.

Rock can bury the fuzz and hiss.

That said, do you happen to know how 103.1 did 25-54 this past month.

My sources say very well.




> > > Well acording to you all, 103.1 can never do better than
> a
> >
> > > 1.0 so why bother?
> >
> > Classical would probably work on the 103.1s for the reason
>
> > they are where they are. Demographics.
> >
> > KDLD has its best signal on the Westside and KDLE is
> > strongest in southern Orange County. Lots of high-income
> > listeners there, and that is the demo Classical stations
> > cater to.
> >
> > Even a 1.0 with good 25-54 demos would work for
> advertisers
> > wanting to reach upper-income level listeners. Think
> > Mercedes Benz.
> >
> K.M. is correct that the signals are perfect for Classical
> ... However, where I disagree is that Saul is getting a
> 1.2-1.5 with it on a full signal on top of Mt. Wilson. At
> best, what could it do on this one - likely a 0.6-0.8?
>
> Also, Saul is doing about $7 million (as David said) - so
> what is the most it could do revenue wise - $4 million -
> maybe $5 million.
>
> Since Entravision paid $85 million for them (and anyone
> buying them would likely pay more) - you couldn't pay debt
> service with Classical...
>
> But the format/signal contour theory is correct.
>
 
Re: Oldies are dying off.

> Classical require a good strong noise free signal.
> 103.1 does not offer that and classical puist would not
> stand for it.
>
> Rock can bury the fuzz and hiss.
>
> That said, do you happen to know how 103.1 did 25-54 this
> past month.
>
> My sources say very well.

There are no monthly ratings. In the trend, they were 26th in the market 25-54, up from 27th the previous trend.
 
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