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Euopean FM radio questions....

FM AM

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I am under the impression that European FM stations are located on both even and odd frequencies, say 105.1
or 105.4, for example. Is this correct? I know that in North America all FM stations are assigned to odd frequencies. (105.1, 105.3, 103.9, 106.5 etc) Also, was there a point in time when the Euopean FM band, ended at around 104.5 or 104.6? Recently a friend of mine purchased an old Telefunken portable radio, and the FM analog tuner ends at around 104, and the highest tunable station is on 104.5. It appears that this radio was intentionally designed this way. Does anybody know???
 
I believe European FM stations are spaced 150 kHz apart rather than the 200 kHz spacing that FM's use in North America. By convention, they just refer to one digit past the decimal point, such as 93.4 MHz when in actuality the station's carrier frequency might be 93.45 MHz.

I don't know what the upper limit of Europe's FM band is, but it reminded me of another oddity of European FM stations that stems from the former Communist Bloc days. Eastern European FM stations were assigned frequencies in the 70 MHZ range, while Western European FM stations were assigned within the more conventional FM band.

This was set up in an effort both to control the efforts of their population to listen to Western FM stations, but also those "West Band Radios" emitted an IF squeal that was easy to trace on directional receivers. That way, the secret police could tell if a given house was listening to the FM signals from a Western European station.

Today, there are few 70 MHz FM stations left in Europe...all of the Eastern European stations are clamoring for "West Band" frequencies. That leaves Japan as the only major country still broadcasting FM radio signals in the 70 MHz band.

Later....
Matt Smith
WGSR-TV
 
I am under the impression that European FM stations are located on both even and odd frequencies, say 105.1
or 105.4, for example. Is this correct? I know that in North America all FM stations are assigned to odd frequencies. (105.1, 105.3, 103.9, 106.5 etc)
Correct.

I believe European FM stations are spaced 150 kHz apart rather than the 200 kHz spacing that FM's use in North America. By convention, they just refer to one digit past the decimal point, such as 93.4 MHz when in actuality the station's carrier frequency might be 93.45 MHz.
No, they really use even and odd frequencies, spaced 100 kHz apart. Of course, nearby stations are (in most cases) spaced at least 200 kHz apart to avoid interference. But it might happen that you receive one station on, for example, 93.4 and one on 93.5 MHz at the same time at the same location. One example: In the Rhein/Ruhr area in Western Germany (Essen/Duisburg/Düsseldorf) the public station "Deutschlandfunk" can be received on 102.8 MHz from Wesel (NW) and on 102.7 MHz from Nordhelle (SE). Since these frequencies interfere with each other the reception on each of these frequencies is pretty bad in that whole area. Any hope for signal improvements in the near future? No...
In Italy radio stations also use frequencies with two digits past the decimal point while the last digit can only be a 0 or a 5. The FM band is... well... "overfilled" there.

Also, was there a point in time when the Euopean FM band, ended at around 104.5 or 104.6? Recently a friend of mine purchased an old Telefunken portable radio, and the FM analog tuner ends at around 104, and the highest tunable station is on 104.5. It appears that this radio was intentionally designed this way. Does anybody know???
In 1947, the frequencies 87.5-100 MHz were reserved for FM broadcasting in Europe. In 1979, the FM band was temporarily extended to 104 MHz in some European countries, and officially in 1984 to 108 MHz.
(http://members.aon.at/wabweb/radio/fm.htm)
Now, 87.6 is the lowest in-use frequency in most European countries, and 107.9 the highest.

>> http://www.myradiobase.de/fmscan/index.php
 
I have several friends in the United Kingdom and Europe so I've had the chance to discuss things with them at length.

Here in the US, we have 10KW, 25KW, 50KW, 100KW at many hundreds, if not thousands of feet. They cover very very wide areas.
In the UK/Europe, they have a few hundred, maybe a few thousand watts.. and cover alot more "local" areas"

The stations in UK/Europe run alot less power, covering alot less area, so the spacing requirements arent as bad as in the US. They can put them alot closer then here in the US because they don't run as much power.
 
More than anything, it really depends on the area. The amount of stations allocated, the frequency range used, and the wattage/height varies from country to country.

Conventionally, the FM band in Europe goes from 87.5 to 108.0 in 100 kHz increments. Some countries, like Italy and Greece, also have stations in 50 kHz increments (e.g. 93.45). In some countries, some frequencies are unused (the band might start at 87.6 instead of 87.5 or end at 107.7 or 107.9 instead of 108.0).

In the UK and a few other countries, public broadcasters like the BBC have a big chunk of the spectrum to themselves...much like non-commercial stations have exclusive use of 88-92 mHz in the United States. In other countries, public broadcasters seem to be allocated frequencies more at random, all across the dial. This is the case especially in Southern Europe. RAI, in Italy, for instance, does not have any part of the dial belonging exclusively to it.

As far as wattage goes...in the UK, Ireland and most Northern European countries, state broadcasters generally pump out very powerful signals (10-100 kw) along with many lower-powered repeaters to fill in the gaps, while commercial stations are limited to 2-3 kw, or even just a few hundred watts. However, in countries like France, Spain, Italy, Greece, etc., this does not seem to be the case, as many commercial stations put out as much, if not more wattage than state/public stations. So stations in Europe do not universally run much less power, but that is the case in many countries, especially in the north.

A perfect example is in Athens, Greece, where the dial is crammed with stations. Legally, most stations operate 300 kHz apart. So you'll have, for instance, stations on 87.7, 88.0, 88.3, 88.6, etc. They all put out rather high power, probably anywhere from 5-20 kw, and most of them broadcast from the same location. Reception of these stations really is not a problem, though sometimes certain stations may "bend the rules" and up their power a bit, stepping on their neighbors. Usually though this isn't a problem. When I traveled there, I had no problem receiving even stations that were 200 kHz apart in some cases. I know the radio band in Italy and Spain and even France can also be crammed like this in many areas, especially major cities. Ultimately, it depends on whether or not the stations are all broadcasting from the same location, at similar wattage and with the proper equipment.

Final interesting note...there may be relatively few FM stations in the UK, but major cities, and especially London, have had most of those empty frequencies filled up by pirates. I believe London alone has around 80 or so at any given time.
 
neo11 said:
Final interesting note...there may be relatively few FM stations in the UK, but major cities, and especially London, have had most of those empty frequencies filled up by pirates. I believe London alone has around 80 or so at any given time.
Not much I can add to that in terms of European radio as a whole - regulation varies massively between different countries.

But I can verify that here in London there are dramatically more pirates than legal stations, despite the fact that even the tiniest involvement in radio piracy carries a prison sentence - and even listening to them is technically a criminal act (although the chances of being arrested for it are really zero).

At my location in London I can hear 41 pirates with reasonable reception if they're all on (and my flatmate's dodgy TV isn't). They're so closely packed that on some channels when a pirate is raided I get another on the adjacent channel with more-or-less perfect reception.

It's still nothing compared with the electromagnetic chaos that passes for an FM band in Italy or Turkey, though :eek:
 
PaulBWalkerJr said:
Here in the US, we have 10KW, 25KW, 50KW, 100KW at many hundreds, if not thousands of feet. They cover very very wide areas.
In the UK/Europe, they have a few hundred, maybe a few thousand watts.. and cover alot more "local" areas"

Depends very much on the situation. In most countries the public broadcasters will have many transmitters that exceed US maximum power regulations (the biggest in Europe being Radio France's four main transmitters for Marseille - 400kW at more than 2,200ft above much of the surrounding landscape) - but in many countries commercial radio powers are much more restricted.
 
I had a book all about European radio that a friend of mine at a Rhode Island radio station gave me.

It was quite an interesting read, i saw alot of stations running only a few hundred watts.
 
Was it the European FM Handbook by any chance? www.efmh.info

As far as electromagnetic chaos in Italy or Turkey or Greece or Spain is concerned, sure, the band is crammed, but hey, they fit and certainly have no problem getting listeners. As a listener I'd certainly prefer to have a larger variety of stations to choose from, including more than one station per format...the competition is certainly beneficial.
 
For a nice demonstration of FM reception in a crowded radio dial, here's a video I uncovered on Youtube (where else?) from someone in Athens, Greece, who actually recorded himself doing a bandscan from 87.5-108.0, stopping at every station receivable at his location along the way. Most stations are 0.3 mHz apart, some however are as close as 0.2 or 0.25 apart. In some cases, he pauses on a specific station long enough for the RDS text to show up as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IT5GS78ykUc
 
I visited England and France in late 2001, and Italy in late 2005...

I made a bunch of airchecks on the 2001 trip. The music on the London stations was mostly either stuff I could get back in the States, or uptempo dance stuff. (I didn't hear any pirates...)

Some of the talk stations were out-and-out bizarre. "SportTalk" (or "TalkSport"?) comes to mind...On AM (oops, Medium Wave) I could occasionally hear French stations from across the channel.

In France (Paris) there was a bit more variety of music available: rock, pop, r&b, oldies...I believe that there is a requirement that a certain amount of music on the radio must be in French, or by a French artist. (Of course that meant you'd occasionally hear an Anglo/American tune with French lyrics, but those didn't predominate).

I didn't make nearly as many airchecks on my Italian trip, just filled up one side of a C90 in Rome, Florence, Venice and (I think) Lake Como....the FM band seemed to be more cluttered in general than in either England or France. Both Italian and Anglo/American songs were in profusion.

(At one time, anyone could set up a radio station in Italy, no license needed. The band sure sounded like it!)
 
charles hobbs said:
I visited England and France in late 2001, and Italy in late 2005...

I made a bunch of airchecks on the 2001 trip. The music on the London stations was mostly either stuff I could get back in the States, or uptempo dance stuff. (I didn't hear any pirates...)

Some of the talk stations were out-and-out bizarre. "SportTalk" (or "TalkSport"?) comes to mind...On AM (oops, Medium Wave) I could occasionally hear French stations from across the channel.

In France (Paris) there was a bit more variety of music available: rock, pop, r&b, oldies...I believe that there is a requirement that a certain amount of music on the radio must be in French, or by a French artist. (Of course that meant you'd occasionally hear an Anglo/American tune with French lyrics, but those didn't predominate).

I didn't make nearly as many airchecks on my Italian trip, just filled up one side of a C90 in Rome, Florence, Venice and (I think) Lake Como....the FM band seemed to be more cluttered in general than in either England or France. Both Italian and Anglo/American songs were in profusion.

(At one time, anyone could set up a radio station in Italy, no license needed. The band sure sounded like it!)

Italy abolished their regulatory agency for radio, deciding government had no business regulating such things.
Either it's still that way, or I never heard about any changes.
I went there for printing press installations in 1993 and 1994, to the area between Milan and Torino.
There was not one clear channel anywhere, and it sounded like most channels had 2 or 3 competing stations.
It was darn-near impossible not to have continuous capturing and trading of signals on ALL FM frequencies.

How bout the goofy alocations for AM in Australia? Stuff like 2WS, at 962 khz! I made that up, but maybe it's remembering an actual
correct call and frequency in Sydney.
 
Tom Wells said:
charles hobbs said:
I visited England and France in late 2001, and Italy in late 2005...

I made a bunch of airchecks on the 2001 trip. The music on the London stations was mostly either stuff I could get back in the States, or uptempo dance stuff. (I didn't hear any pirates...)

Some of the talk stations were out-and-out bizarre. "SportTalk" (or "TalkSport"?) comes to mind...On AM (oops, Medium Wave) I could occasionally hear French stations from across the channel.

In France (Paris) there was a bit more variety of music available: rock, pop, r&b, oldies...I believe that there is a requirement that a certain amount of music on the radio must be in French, or by a French artist. (Of course that meant you'd occasionally hear an Anglo/American tune with French lyrics, but those didn't predominate).

I didn't make nearly as many airchecks on my Italian trip, just filled up one side of a C90 in Rome, Florence, Venice and (I think) Lake Como....the FM band seemed to be more cluttered in general than in either England or France. Both Italian and Anglo/American songs were in profusion.

(At one time, anyone could set up a radio station in Italy, no license needed. The band sure sounded like it!)

Italy abolished their regulatory agency for radio, deciding government had no business regulating such things.
Either it's still that way, or I never heard about any changes.
I went there for printing press installations in 1993 and 1994, to the area between Milan and Torino.
There was not one clear channel anywhere, and it sounded like most channels had 2 or 3 competing stations.
It was darn-near impossible not to have continuous capturing and trading of signals on ALL FM frequencies.

How bout the goofy alocations for AM in Australia? Stuff like 2WS, at 962 khz! I made that up, but maybe it's remembering an actual
correct call and frequency in Sydney.

Are you referring to the call letters or the frequency? Because if it's the frequency, much of Europe, Africa, and parts of Asia also space out frequency allocations in 9 khz increments instead of the 10 we have in North America.
 
charles hobbs said:
The music on the London stations was mostly either stuff I could get back in the States, or uptempo dance stuff. (I didn't hear any pirates...)
It's not impossible that you did... 'uptempo dance stuff' sounds like a reasonable description of many of them, especially back in 2001. They can occasionally be difficult to identify as pirates.

Another thing is that it's probably not until around 2000/01 that the majority of these stations started to run 24/7. If you were listening during a weekday afternoon in 2001 - especially in the outer areas of the city - you'd be unlikely to hear all that much, except perhaps a reggae station.

In 2001, the biggest pirate in London was probably the relatively professional sounding dance station Upfront 99.3. I remember spending a week or two in London around that time and listening to it switch on at 5pm a couple of nights.
 
smorris said:
It's not impossible that you did... 'uptempo dance stuff' sounds like a reasonable description of many of them, especially back in 2001. They can occasionally be difficult to identify as pirates.

I don't think some of these stations identified much, if at all....
 
charles hobbs said:
I don't think some of these stations identified much, if at all....
They were probably pirates testing transmitters or on daytime automation (which at that time would have consisted of a CD changer on repeat!). Most of them ID a lot when they're live - but the vast majority (except the reggae stations) have nothing you'd classify as a 'jingle'. On the dance stations there's usually a relatively formal ID every two hours, at the start or end of the ads.
 
Yes, in Greece even though the FM band is cluttered, most stations do come in clearly even on the radio that's on my cell phone, with RDS. Now, some of the sound processing is somewhat poor, especially with some of the stations in the less urban areas, but you can listen to the stations.
 
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