• Get involved.
    We want your input!
    Apply for Membership and join the conversations about everything related to broadcasting.

    After we receive your registration, a moderator will review it. After your registration is approved, you will be permitted to post.
    If you use a disposable or false email address, your registration will be rejected.

    After your membership is approved, please take a minute to tell us a little bit about yourself.
    https://www.radiodiscussions.com/forums/introduce-yourself.1088/

    Thanks in advance and have fun!
    RadioDiscussions Administrators

Do Legal IDs Matter Anymore?

chriscervantez

chriscervantez

I’ve been listening to a DFW station today while I work and this station is airing a not-so legal ID. They’ve been doing this for over a year now. When I lived in Illinois, I knew of a station that didn’t air a legal ID at all for over 10 years.

If the rules aren’t being enforced, do the rules really exist any longer?? Is anyone opposed to getting rid of the legal ID rule or do you think it should stay?
 
chriscervantez said:
I’ve been listening to a DFW station today while I work and this station is airing a not-so legal ID. They’ve been doing this for over a year now. When I lived in Illinois, I knew of a station that didn’t air a legal ID at all for over 10 years.

If the rules aren’t being enforced, do the rules really exist any longer?? Is anyone opposed to getting rid of the legal ID rule or do you think it should stay?
Click to expand...
It could be a combination of things. Many current Radio employees don't know what a Legal ID is and no outside agency is monitoring for it. It's just like the antiquated EBS tests that nobody pays attention to. Most stations still air a Legal ID as close as possible to the top of the hour...
 
chriscervantez said:
If the rules aren’t being enforced, do the rules really exist any longer?? Is anyone opposed to getting rid of the legal ID rule or do you think it should stay?
Click to expand...
The last I heard of an enforcement action regarding a legal ID was with KBIG a handful of years ago. That one was complaint based, so maybe just no one is complaining about this issue in general.

Low Power TV stations don't have to run an hourly ID if they include the calls in the PSIP of one of the subchannels. That makes sense because PSIP is part of the ATSC standard and all TVs can see the ID. However, with FM, RDS is not part of an "FM standard", so a text-based ID is not available on all receivers. So I think we're stuck with hourly audio IDs for now.
 
My own wish is for more stringent ID rules for FM translators, equivalent to those for full-power stations, since there are so damned many of them now.
 
legal ID, close to TOH, can be as short s "legal calls, city of license" fired off in 3 seconds at a reduced volume.

Granted the same idiots running radio that think using EAS or EBS tones in commercials is fine are also in charge of "legal ID's", once some station gets nailed to the cross on a NAL for an infraction you see everyone else getting a memo from corporate, their C.E., or communications lawyer reminding them to make sure they are in compliance.

You can google "Fcc notice of apparent liability station identification " and you will get some hits for stations that got caught playing fast and loose with the rules

Remember the station that was doing re-runs of "pay for play" home improvement or some other BS and the Host had died like 6 months earlier? Some "listener" dimed them to the Feds and not only did they get nailed, every effn station in the country started inserting " portions of the following program are pre recorded" at the TOH, and if it was paid time there was now a very prominent mention of "the following is a paid presentation"

After Sinclair and a whole bunch of others got slammed for inserting toy commercials inside what were essentially long form toy commercials, to the tune of millions of dollars, you can bet your arse every PD was looking at the schedule and the traffic logs to make sure they were not going to suffer a similar fate.

www.nexttv.com

FCC Proposes $13M Sinclair Fine Over Paid Programming

Sinclair says it will contest the finding and fine
www.nexttv.com www.nexttv.com
 
tbolt909 said:
It could be a combination of things. Many current Radio employees don't know what a Legal ID is and no outside agency is monitoring for it. It's just like the antiquated EBS tests that nobody pays attention to. Most stations still air a Legal ID as close as possible to the top of the hour...
Click to expand...
Remember, the meaning of "top of the hour" is not defined. It is described as a "natural break in programming" as opposed to the way-back-when plus or minus two minute window.

A station can say it only has two natural breaks an hour, at the :15 and :45 stopsets and run the ID then. By definition, legal and never the cause of a fine or citation that I know of.

On the other hand, the EAS test is one of the first things the FCC checks for in an inspection visit. It is required and so is the necessary equipment... and hardly antiquated as the "authorities" depend on a variety of methods of broadcasting emergency messages, including radio, TV, cable channels, cellular phones.
 
MRBIboredop said:
legal ID, close to TOH, can be as short s "legal calls, city of license" fired off in 3 seconds at a reduced volume.
Click to expand...
"Close to top of the hour" is now defined as "at a natural break". That can be way off from the exact top of the hour.
 
Mark Roberts said:
My own wish is for more stringent ID rules for FM translators, equivalent to those for full-power stations, since there are so damned many of them now.
Click to expand...
They can identify with an encoded legal ID just a couple of times a day. An audible ID is not required.

Those who actually are involved with translators can likely further describe this.
 
So the official COL for this station is technically two cities that are hyphenated. I know this is being super technical, but I have heard quite a few IDs that are a lot less “legal” than this one.

I also remember in Illinois for quite a while, 2 public radio non-comms were IDing the wrong call letters. The station on 89.5 was using 90.5’s call letters and the station on 90.5 was using 89.5’s call letters. That was pretty strange, but this happened a long time ago and has since been fixed.

Also, are there any set requirements for IDing HD1’s? I noticed that most companies say “WXYZ FM and HD1” or “WXYZ and WXYZ HD1”. However, iHeart stations don’t ID HD1’s at all. Just curious!
 
chriscervantez said:
So the official COL for this station is technically two cities that are hyphenated. I know this is being super technical, but I have heard quite a few IDs that are a lot less “legal” than this one.
Click to expand...
The only "hypenated" two city one I see is KDGE, Ft Worth - Dallas.
 
chriscervantez said:
Also, are there any set requirements for IDing HD1’s? I noticed that most companies say “WXYZ FM and HD1” or “WXYZ and WXYZ HD1”. However, iHeart stations don’t ID HD1’s at all. Just curious!
Click to expand...
Yes. 47 CFR 73.1201(b)(1) says "A radio station operating in DAB hybrid mode or extended hybrid mode shall identify its digital signal, including any free multicast audio programming streams, in a manner that appropriately alerts its audience to the fact that it is listening to a digital audio broadcast".

So it has to be mentioned, but in whatever way the licensee deems appropriate.
 
KDGE is supposed to ID with its call letters followed by "Fort Worth - Dallas." And KVIL is supposed use "Highland Village - Dallas."

But as far as I know, every FM station in the market uses both cities in the ID. And ones that are licensed to nearby cities, such as KHKS Denton, KLTY Arlington and KLIF-FM Halton City, will also use Dallas and Fort Worth in their IDs. The FCC allows additional cities to be inserted after the real city of license.
 
DavidEduardo said:
The only "hypenated" two city one I see is KDGE, Ft Worth - Dallas.
Click to expand...
KVIL - Highland Park-Dallas

They used to include Dallas in the ID, although it was merged into their slogan. Here:


And here’s a more recent ID, which is the same exact ID that they aired just a few moments ago:


Again, I know I’m nitpicking. I think I was more curious if there’s still a purpose to IDing at the top of the hour (or close to the top of the hour)? I know stations in Canada don’t really ID. I have heard some, but it doesn’t seem to be common.

I think it’s more important to ID low power stations, such as translators, since it’s sometimes hard to determine the exact station. However, for full powered stations, in most instances I think you can easily ID the station.
 
DavidEduardo said:
The only "hypenated" two city one I see is KDGE, Ft Worth - Dallas.
Click to expand...
Correction. KVIL also has dual ID. The rest just add other cities onto the city of license, which is legal as long as the COL is first. You could say "KESS, Benbrook, Dallas, Houston and El Paso" if you wanted to.
 
chriscervantez said:
Again, I know I’m nitpicking. I think I was more curious if there’s still a purpose to IDing at the top of the hour (or close to the top of the hour)? I know stations in Canada don’t really ID. I have heard some, but it doesn’t seem to be common.
Click to expand...
We are a long way from when I was written up at WUNO for being 30" outside the + or - 2 minutes from the top of the hour ID in 1971.

It was summertime and WWV did not make it, sometimes for many days, into the eastern Caribbean. The FCC did not care. We bought a very expensive "atomic" clock and they "forgave" us.
 
Negin said:
I remember a station years broadcasting a live concert - when it ended about 90 minutes later, the station ran the ID.
Click to expand...
That has also traditionally been done with opera and symphonies, where interruption between acts or movements is not considered appropriate.
 
chriscervantez said:
KVIL - Highland Park-Dallas

They used to include Dallas in the ID, although it was merged into their slogan. Here:


And here’s a more recent ID, which is the same exact ID that they aired just a few moments ago:


Again, I know I’m nitpicking. I think I was more curious if there’s still a purpose to IDing at the top of the hour (or close to the top of the hour)? I know stations in Canada don’t really ID. I have heard some, but it doesn’t seem to be common.

I think it’s more important to ID low power stations, such as translators, since it’s sometimes hard to determine the exact station. However, for full powered stations, in most instances I think you can easily ID the station.
Click to expand...
CFUN's legal ID appeared to be, "14 C-Fun Vancouver"! Portland had a daytimer Top 40 and when they'd sign off, C-Fun came right in so I probably heard that ID hundreds of times. I never heard them say C-F-U-N!
 
I think stations should be required to register their slogan and format with the FCC and update it within 10 days of a format change. That would make it much easier to identify stations than requiring call letters at the top of the hour. There are third party databases that include such information, and stations can update those but are not required to do so.
 
semoochie said:
CFUN's legal ID appeared to be, "14 C-Fun Vancouver"! Portland had a daytimer Top 40 and when they'd sign off, C-Fun came right in so I probably heard that ID hundreds of times. I never heard them say C-F-U-N!
Click to expand...
Whether that was a violation depended on Canadian rules, though, not the FCC.
 
Back
Top Bottom