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DID BEN SAVE OGL??

I

ItalianRocker

Guest
After chatting with some exec's in different agencies, it is my assumption that if BEN were not in business, Infinity would of flipped OGL to Jack. Oldies is dying all over the USA, especially on the FM band. Many cities and large metro's have no oldies outlet, or depend on weak rim-shots. There is an AM station here playing oldies, which would make the flip more desirable for Infinity. My observation would be, if BEN was not operating, OGL would of now been Jack, but an impending different format flip for OGL is probably in the works right now. If sister YSP was not Rock, I would bet Alternative for OGL. Or maybe Infinity could flip YSP to Hard Classic Rock and OGL to Alternative. Bottom line is, OGL will be the next FM station(format) to go by-by.
 
> After chatting with some exec's in different agencies, it is
> my assumption that if BEN were not in business, Infinity
> would of flipped OGL to Jack. Oldies is dying all over the
> USA, especially on the FM band. Many cities and large
> metro's have no oldies outlet, or depend on weak rim-shots.
> There is an AM station here playing oldies, which would make
> the flip more desirable for Infinity. My observation would
> be, if BEN was not operating, OGL would of now been Jack,
> but an impending different format flip for OGL is probably
> in the works right now. If sister YSP was not Rock, I would
> bet Alternative for OGL. Or maybe Infinity could flip YSP
> to Hard Classic Rock and OGL to Alternative. Bottom line
> is, OGL will be the next FM station(format) to go by-by.
>
The baby boomers are the largest segment population wise. By sheer numbers alone, there's plenty of money to be spent. Why dump oldies and run from this population fact? It makes no sense to me. It's a bunch of snot nosed kids making the buying decisions at the agencies that are driving this.
 
Making a huge mistake!

It could very well be that, were it not for BEN-FM, Infinity would have killed Oldies 98 by now. I haven't seen a company go this flip-crazy (killing viable stations all over the country favor of what is obviously a fad) since Clear Channel thought Jammin' Oldies was the second coming.

I understand the allure of the Variety Hits formats just as well as I understand that they're fads. And a market like Philadelphia was a prime candidate for getting a Variety Hits station: The dial was saturated with every other format management was willing to try so the under-performers had nothing to flip to! Management was waiting with bated breath for "the next best thing." (This is the same reason Philly got a Jammin' Oldies station.)

That being said, killing off a profitable Oldies station to bring in a fad like Variety Hits is completely insane. The beauty of the Oldies format is that it never really goes out of style. People will keep getting old and wanting to hear the music from their youth, so Oldies stations are constantly getting an influx of new listeners. Current listeners will keep dying off (or heading to Nostalgia-formatted stations) so all the Oldies stations have to do is evolve the music as this never-ending cycle continues. Variety Hits, however, is a fad. And once it wears off, you know what Philly's gonna end up with? Mix 95.7.

In the long run, Infinity will be glad that it was Greater Media who took a chance on something as short-term as Variety Hits. (And who better than Greater Media, after all?)
 
Re: Making a huge mistake!

> That being said, killing off a profitable Oldies station to
> bring in a fad like Variety Hits is completely insane. The
> beauty of the Oldies format is that it never really goes out
> of style. People will keep getting old and wanting to hear
> the music from their youth, so Oldies stations are
> constantly getting an influx of new listeners.

Jack is mostly an oldies station. Most of the music is from 1974-1994, with only small percentages from 70-73 and 95 to present.
Radio has been trying to figure out for years how to create an oldies format for the late Baby Boomers, i.e. people born 1954-1965. Jammin' Oldies was one attempt. 80s stations another. Jack and his brothers and cousins are just another try at oldies for people who are currently mostly in their 40s.

In theory, your idea of just updating the music on an oldies station should work. But oldies stations didn't keep up. If oldies stations want to appeal to people on the older end of the 25-54 demo (let's say 40-54), then currently they should be playing music mostly from the years 1970-1989. Most FM oldies stations still concentrate on 1964-1969 with a growing collection of 70s, mostly from the early part of the decade.
I was born in 1963. I'll turn 42 this year, still in the prime 25-54 demo. I don't have a lot of interest in rock and Top-40 music that was popular before I was in my teens. That means 1976 on. So, a good portion of the music WOGL plays doesn't appeal to me.
WMGK fits me better, but still not perfect. It's mostly 70s with some late 60s and early 80s.
Ben and Jack music fits, for me.
Ironically, if OGL had evolved or flipped to Jack, it would be playing a lot of the music of its heyday as CAU-FM, Hot Hits.
 
> The baby boomers are the largest segment population wise. By
> sheer numbers alone, there's plenty of money to be spent.
> Why dump oldies and run from this population fact? It makes
> no sense to me. It's a bunch of snot nosed kids making the
> buying decisions at the agencies that are driving this.

See my post above for more about radio and Boomers.
Boomers are defined as those born from 1946 to 1964. It was always too large of a generation by its definition. People born in 1946 don't have the same taste in music as those born in 1964. Someone born in 1946 turned 18 in 1964. The people born in '64 turned 18 in 1982.
Jack, Ben et al are not current-based pop music machines. Most of the music is from 1974-1994, perfect for the late boomers born from '54-64.
I was born in '63. My favorite music is from the late 70s to the early 80s. But, at 42 years old, I'm not ready to give up on more current music either.
That's the appeal of Jack. They can say it will appeal to 25-54 year olds, but in reality, it's a format for people currently in their 40s, maybe upper 30s, lower 50s.
The oldest boomers turn 59 this year. Unforunately, by the definition of ad agencies and certain radio sales teams, they're five years too old to care about. I'm not advocating that position, just stating a fact.
In 13 years when I turn 55, I expect the music of the late 70s and 80s will be difficult to find on the radio ... because it will then be "too old."
 
> The baby boomers are the largest segment population wise. By
> sheer numbers alone, there's plenty of money to be spent.
> Why dump oldies and run from this population fact? It makes
> no sense to me. It's a bunch of snot nosed kids making the
> buying decisions at the agencies that are driving this.

Actually, no. The under-12's now outnumber the Baby Boomers, believe it or not. We're in the Bigger Baby Boom right now.

And, yes, I think "Jack" works well because it IS Oldies for the 25-45 crowd. Of course, since "Jack" is pretty similar to the "Fred" format Bill Gravino and I were doing back in 1999, I'm biased. :)
<P ID="signature">______________
The Pab Sungenis Project - http://www.lowbudgetradio.com</P>
 
So I guess the next question is...

For us. Is BEN-FM a bad thing? On 1 hand had 98.1 flipped to jack, we would be getting a better version of the format then what Ben gives us. However ogl would be dead.

For greater media. Could they possible be thinking they shouldn't have went with the BEN format? Doubtful, but without OGL, WPEN would have some hope. 95.7 could've taken up modern rock.
 
Re: Too many assumptions!

> I was born in 1963. I'll turn 42 this year, still in the
> prime 25-54 demo. I don't have a lot of interest in rock and
> Top-40 music that was popular before I was in my teens. That
> means 1976 on. So, a good portion of the music WOGL plays
> doesn't appeal to me.
> WMGK fits me better, but still not perfect. It's mostly 70s
> with some late 60s and early 80s.
> Ben and Jack music fits, for me.
> Ironically, if OGL had evolved or flipped to Jack, it would
> be playing a lot of the music of its heyday as CAU-FM, Hot
> Hits.
>
You assume too much. I am younger than you and i enjoy oldies radio. It has an energy that I remember from my childhood, while playing a lot of classic songs. The 1960's and early 1970's were a unique time in pop history. They were the last time that all genres of pop music coexisted (before fragmentation). This also marked a period of intense change and variety.

Hey, watch TV for awhile (without the TiVo!). How many ads use upbeat 60's tunes? A lot of them. This is because the music is familiar and enjoyable. Even my 11 year old knows a few oldies - not just the new stuff from the likes of .50 cent. The music is not just demographic based (like MOYL). It has taken on a popularity of its own. This is why the median age for a lot of oldies stations hovers around 40. Half of the audience were not around when the music was new. They just like it....and the associated presentation.

Muscially, you may be right about Jack being some kind of ersatz "new" oldies station. But, the presentation sucks and it fails to be upbeat and fun. This is why it will need to change to survive. It's also why all of these oldies flips to Jacks are mistakes.
 
Re: Too many assumptions!

You're right that younger people like oldies, too. After all, if that were not the case, no one would listen to classical music: all the people from that era are dead.
But ratings surveys show the overwhelming audience these days for oldies stations which play 1964-1979 are primarily people 55+, with some people 45-54. People under 45 make up a very small percentage of the oldies audience.
And when it comes to the money-making game, the amount of people listening and who those people are count.

I agree with you that there are parts of the Jack presentation that I don't like. Example: No DJs. I hope the stations add DJs.
As for all of the flips from 60s-70s oldies to Jack being a mistake: As it's been said on this board many times before by lots of other people, radio is a business. If they make more money with Jack than 60s-70s oldies, it will not be a mistake. If you can accurately predict that Jack stations will make less money than the stations they replaced ... then can you help me make my retirement investments? ;)

If radio were publically subsidized, then it might be more likely to "save" the great music of the 60s and early 70s on the radio. But, that's not the case.
 
I have a question..

You mentioned that you'd like to see Ben (Jack) add DJ's. What kind of presentation should the DJ's have? Is it up and top 40 like 'OGL, or more of an AC style presentation? And, is it possible to sound like "fun" without the fast-talking, typical boss jock, everyone hits the vocal type of thing?
What works best in the Ben (Jack) format?
 
Re: I have a question..

> You mentioned that you'd like to see Ben (Jack) add DJ's.
> What kind of presentation should the DJ's have? Is it up and
> top 40 like 'OGL, or more of an AC style presentation? And,
> is it possible to sound like "fun" without the fast-talking,
> typical boss jock, everyone hits the vocal type of thing?
> What works best in the Ben (Jack) format?
>
Not sure I can answer the question about presentation. I don't think I want a screamer - so no duplication of Top 40 jocks in the 1980s.
"Fun" is important, but it should not be forced. Little bit of info in breaks, maybe some quick phoners.
If AC presentation is B-101, can't say I'd choose that, either.
How about some DJs who sound like real people?
Wouldn't mind a typical morning show. My favorite morning show in Philly was John Lander. I listened to Ross Britain when he came back to WOGL. I liked what I heard during the breaks, but the music isn't for me so I didn't continue to listen. I also like the morning show on WSTW in Wilmington. The people sound like they're actually friends and enjoy doing the show together.
 
ONE IMPORTANT POINT

I agree with what you all said about Oldies stations being popular and have a large audiance, but one important thing is these so-called oldies formats are not broad enough. OGL, PEN and many others are just playing the same 200 tunes over and over. If you open up the Billboard book 1956 to 1990, and check the years from 1956 to 1976, you would see how much great music is missing from these oldies formats. Country and Instrumentals are always ignored on most oldies stations, just tune into XM/Sirius/DMX or MC's oldies channels and you can really hear the difference. So to sum it up, if the playlist would increase to 10k or more, I think Oldies stations would have a chance. Or just maybe the Classic Rock stations will start to play oldies that the main stream oldies stations will not play. I did hear the Animals, Beach Boys and the DC5 on some Classic Rock stations.
 
> > The baby boomers are the largest segment population wise.
> By
> > sheer numbers alone, there's plenty of money to be spent.
> > Why dump oldies and run from this population fact? It
> makes
> > no sense to me. It's a bunch of snot nosed kids making the
>
> > buying decisions at the agencies that are driving this.
>
> Actually, no. The under-12's now outnumber the Baby
> Boomers, believe it or not. We're in the Bigger Baby Boom
> right now.
>
> And, yes, I think "Jack" works well because it IS Oldies for
> the 25-45 crowd. Of course, since "Jack" is pretty similar
> to the "Fred" format Bill Gravino and I were doing back in
> 1999, I'm biased. :)
>


The "25 through 45 crowd"? I'm 27 and Ben certainly doesn't appeal to me. Some of my friends who are in their mid 30s - 40s seem to relate to it more. What I'd like to know is why radio (at least in Philly) chooses to completely ignore those of us who came up in the 90's, Generation X-ers. There seem to be stations marketed for every other decade. We always seem to be lumped in at the older end of CHR and mod rock demographics or the younger end of AC or classic rock. I think a station that plays a mix of modern and classic alternative would do quite well. I personally know plenty of people who this format would appeal to.
 
I have the station!

> > > The baby boomers are the largest segment population
> wise.
> > By
> > > sheer numbers alone, there's plenty of money to be
> spent.
> > > Why dump oldies and run from this population fact? It
> > makes
> > > no sense to me. It's a bunch of snot nosed kids making
> the
> >
> > > buying decisions at the agencies that are driving this.
> >
> > Actually, no. The under-12's now outnumber the Baby
> > Boomers, believe it or not. We're in the Bigger Baby Boom
>
> > right now.
> >
> > And, yes, I think "Jack" works well because it IS Oldies
> for
> > the 25-45 crowd. Of course, since "Jack" is pretty
> similar
> > to the "Fred" format Bill Gravino and I were doing back in
>
> > 1999, I'm biased. :)
> >
>
>
> The "25 through 45 crowd"? I'm 27 and Ben certainly doesn't
> appeal to me. Some of my friends who are in their mid 30s -
> 40s seem to relate to it more. What I'd like to know is why
> radio (at least in Philly) chooses to completely ignore
> those of us who came up in the 90's, Generation X-ers. There
> seem to be stations marketed for every other decade. We
> always seem to be lumped in at the older end of CHR and mod
> rock demographics or the younger end of AC or classic rock.
> I think a station that plays a mix of modern and classic
> alternative would do quite well. I personally know plenty of
> people who this format would appeal to.
>


Phillychick, it would work. And yes, there is a station that is like what you describe.

You would have to get XM.....it's called Lucy. Classic-based, but they throw in only the real popular stuff (a.k.a. - hits). <P ID="signature">______________
FOX News Alert: YOU SUCK!!! Ya like apples?</P>
 
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