ATSC 3.0 Radios in Vehicles

[radio11]

Amazon has many radios for sale. Every day on ebay, dozens of FM tuners, receivers, and radios are sold.

 

[KeithE4]

Amazon has many radios for sale. Every day on ebay, dozens of FM tuners, receivers, and radios are sold.

How many are sold? My guess is not many.

 

[DavidEduardo]

David you are correct on the patents for Armstrong . . . but I also heard that the introduction of STEREO records made the FM radio broadcaster want FM STEREO when the introduction of STEREO records came in the late 1950's . . . and it was left "totally" up to the FCC to pick the system and surprise we got FM STEREO in 1961.

Yet, initially, it took 3 years just to get to 200 FM stations in stereo. There was no groundswell of interest in stereo... it was more like a slow growth, where stations would decide on stereo based on format and the need to update equipment. Some FMs in the early 60's were still using gear from the late 40's and 50's, so when it was decided to renew the studio and transmitter they gave stereo a chance.

Remember, between 1950 and 1960, the number of FM stations in the US declined by about 30%.

If radio only kept up, maybe the new technologies of today would not be so much in a position to possibly knock radio out the game all together.

Radio does not need a technology shift. The issue is the one of commercial radio with ads... lots of ads... and streams where you can pay and get zero ads and just songs you like. This is a content issue, and there is no technology involved.

You say listeners don't want radio to be sound better, they don't care . . . sure, they don't care when radio gives up on itself not telling the listener what is happening, like "hey we are in AM STEREO", I can see why listeners don't care.

Again, the issue with AM is that most AM stations no longer cover their market. An average of less than 2 stations per market even has 80% day and night coverage in the top 100 US markets. AM lost to FM in a great part because the signals were better and there were more of them in every market that covered the suburbs. Again, not about"new" technology... it is about whether you can hear a station or not.

FM promoted the heck out of STEREO in the NYC area when I was a kid, in the NYC area they were doing it into the late 60's early 70's.

I was deeply involved in FM in the 60's and 70's. A couple of anecdotes:

First job for me was in 1959 with the FM of the local R&B station. It did logs months in advance because there were no ads.

In 1966 I put a large market's first FM on the air. It had unique programming, and despite there being 32 fulltime AM competitors we were profitable in just a year. When we went stereo two years later, the ratings and sales did not change.

In all the ensuing years the comments I heard about FMs I owned or managed had to do, first and foremost, about the format. Then, far behind, the fewer commercials. And then "no static". And then, very few, mentioned "stereo".

In late 1978 I converted a Beautiful Music station (which was the market's highest billing FM) to a mainstream format. It got, in a 30 station market, a 33.5 Mediastat share in its third month on the air. We did not promote "Stereo". We promoted the format.

When AM tried STEREO only occasionally, did I hear an AM station that was STEREO say, WE ARE IN STEREO.

By the time the first AM stereo system was available to use in the early 80's, most successful AM stations were all talk. Music had moved to FM nearly a decade ago. While FM took till 1977 to achieve parity in listening with AM, the music listening majority moved to FM around 1973/1974.

And again, FM offered better signals that covered the post WW II suburbs that grew over the next decades. Most AMs covered the suburbs of their market poorly.

Maybe that is why radios are no longer made as much as the past . . . because radio manufactures saw two things . . . 1) people not buying radios and 2) radio stations not trying to better themselves given a reason to buy a new radio.

People don't buy radios unless a phone or a car are attached to them. We don't buy stand-alone radios because technology has made them obsolete and unneeded.

 

[alok]

Good stuff David (stuff, just above).

As I said growing up in the NYC area in the 60's . . . WQXR-FM was Classical, on FM (like their 1560 AM),they promoted the fact they were IN STEREO on FM, often . . . 98.7 WOR-FM (at the time no longer simulcasting the AM) when they went Music (Top 40 / Oldies RnR around 1966) . . . (kind of a modified Bill Drake Format for them) they promoted constantly . . . THE SOUND IS 98.7 WOR-FM NEW YORK !!! (they had a jingle that did that, played much-o, great sounding ID too) . . . WNEW-FM 102.7 was also constantly mentioning that they were IN STEREO playing Underground music - IN STEREO!
WPIX 101.9 the same, mentioning IN STEREO . . . WCBS-FM 101.1 same . . . constantly mentioning IN STEREO etc. etc. WPAT-FM in NJ mentioning IN STEREO.

What did it do . . . people young & old in the NYC area were out buying Stereo radios for the home . . . when people purchased radios . . . it made a difference . . . the people knew because the station was telling them . . . WE ARE IN STEREO.
One of the big sellers was a small component like system from Panasonic . . . sold for $99 (1966) and sounded great.

Again (not to beat a dead pig) back to AM STEREO, when KFRC 610 AM in SF was AM stereo in the early 70's I don't recall them mentioning that they were in STEREO, hardly at all . . . long before Smartphones, the Internet, etc.
Yes, you had the "many systems" for AM which was a mess . . . but the FCC should have held strong, instead they left it into the marketplace . . . DUMB mistake by the FCC . . . Kahn stepped in and muddy the waters more . . . it was a mess . . . who suffered - AM radio.
Would it have made a difference. I think it would have . . . for AM to be STEREO.
If a station is AM and Talk why can't it be STEREO . . . you could hear the commercials IN STEREO !!!! or the bumper music.

But nope the FCC thru AM radio "under the bus".

As I said, long before Smartphones, the Internet & before radio listening in mainly cars . . . my point is I think that AM if STEREO took off in the 70'and the FCC told ALL involved to "knock off the crap", forget the fighting we are going to only use one system . . . that is it . . . it would have helped establish AM in a better position for today, my opinion.

Yes I know about the DA patterns being done years ago and not covering markets good today . . . all the more the FCC should have given broadcasters (I'll go back to the TV Channel 5 & 6 thingy) TV Channel 5 & 6 during the analog to DTV TV transition, the FCC could have done that.

But nope, again, ''under the bus for AM radio.

I think Brazil moved its AM's to TV Channel 5 & 6.

I heard to, over the years, that FM broadcasters did not want AM to be as good as them, you know anything about that?

Again you are knowledgeable, but I still blame,

AM & FM broadcasters for not fighting, the FCC, the NAB and selfish companies . . .

Now move to today . . . yes nobody cares about AM radio anymore (and maybe FM in the future), because it did not get the push it needed back in the 70's, and later in the early 2000's with a switch to TV Channels 5 & 6 . . . to help it survive today in a digital world.
You might say nobody was making home radios in the early 2000's . . . I think companies would have come forward and made new radios for a new AM radio band.

We got what we got today, because of AM/FM broadcasters not fighting, because of the FCC, the NAB and selfish companies.

 

[michael hagerty]

Again (not to beat a dead pig) back to AM STEREO, when KFRC 610 AM in SF was AM stereo in the early 70's I don't recall them mentioning that they were in STEREO,

I'm gonna guess that was a typo, because KFRC went AM stereo in August of 1983:

https://www.worldradiohistory.com/hd2/IDX-Business/Music/Archive-RandR-IDX/IDX/80s/82/RR-1982-08-13-OCR-Page-0003.pdf#search=%22kfrc%20stereo%22

And as for not mentioning it, they did---the exact same way, at the top of every hour:

Lack of enthusiasm was NOT a problem...

 

[Kelly A]

I'm gonna guess that was a typo, because KFRC went AM stereo in August of 1983:

Lack of enthusiasm was NOT a problem...

Chalk it up to more of Alok's revisionist history.

 

[radiofan2023]

If a station is AM and Talk why can't it be STEREO . . . you could hear the commercials IN STEREO !!!! or the bumper music.

Wow, commercials in AM stereo….

 

[alok]

I'm gonna guess that was a typo, because KFRC went AM stereo in August of 1983:

You got me!!! I thought it was in the 70's but the 80's sounds correct.

And as for not mentioning it, they did---the exact same way, at the top of every hour:

As far as them mentioning it, I guess I did not pay close attention to the hourly ID on KFRC 610, in NYC they mentioned FM STEREO in the mid 60's way more times than just on the hour, at times it got "old", but they mentioned it often with-in the hour plus on the top of the hour.
Again, regarding KFRC in the 80's and other stations . . . the STEREO fight (over standard to use) was brewing which did not help, because AM/FM broadcasters, the FCC, the NAB and selfish companies failed radio,

but good points Michael!

Wow, commercials in AM stereo….

Yes, I'll bet that your hearing commercials IN STEREO as you stream - STREAMFAN 2023

Chalk it up to more of Alok's revisionist history.

Wow . . . cool word!!!

next from David . . . aways - up the screen . . .

Yet, initially, it took 3 years just to get to 200 FM stations in stereo. There was no groundswell of interest in stereo... it was more like a slow growth, where stations would decide on stereo based on format and the need to update equipment. Some FMs in the early 60's were still using gear from the late 40's and 50's, so when it was decided to renew the studio and transmitter they gave stereo a chance.

Did not know that David, but again as I said in NYC the FM's around the mid 60's could not stop talking about being in STEREO. Even new magazines for FM and FM STEREO popped up around the country, one for NYC being sold in the NYC area, talking about programming on local FM stations, program listings, STEREO programs, STEREO radios in general, audio component equipment, etc.

As I said friends were buying these inexpensive component systems and putting them in their bedrooms . . . kids were putting FM radios in their cars, these were average people that knew nothing about radio or electronics, they just wanted to hear Jimi Hendrixs in STEREO . . . Radio Shack had an under dash AM/ FM - FM STEREO radio that looked real nice and sounded great.

Too bad AM radio never got a chance to do something like this, but it did not.

As I said some of you have talked about "the listener can't hear STEREO or knows the show is STEREO or if radio is analog or digital.
As I said before I never heard that kind of talk working in TV engineering for over 40 years.
At engineering meetings and at management / engineering meetings . . . never did I hear that.
I am sure many of you in radio feel this way, that you give the listener the best you can . . . but it has been mentioned often here in this group, that the listener can't tell.
Again, in TV where I was at, we always offered the best we could with-in budget and gave the people what we knew was proper & correct . . . great quality in sound & pictures.
If the people could not hear it, as I said before who cares . . . we as broadcast engineers knew we were giving the best our signal could provide and I am sure many of you in this radio group feel this way.

Some of you point out that "yea we got digital TV" and the consumer had to pay for it by having to buy a new TV . . . again . . . they got something better . . . as I said our viewers when we went digital loved it, the "nerds" as some of you call them and the average Joe . . . they loved the better picture on their new DTV and the sound too.

Some of you talk about consumers having to pay for a new DTV, when DTV came on board . . . well when you buy a new car today you get that fancy "infotainment center" or whatever the car companies call it . . . guess who is paying for that . . . the consumer.
Guess who pays for some of the APPS to use in that infotainment center . . . the consumer.
Who's paying if they exceed the data usage as they stream or having to pay for extra data usage up-front . . . the consumer.
And who is being led to believe their Smartphones going to be there in time of need, the consumer.

*****

let's compare TV & radio over the years . . .

look at TV . . .

color TV in the 50's,
closed captions,
SAP (Second Audio Program),
Stereo
DTV

please don't say there was more places where TV could improve because it was pictures & sound. . . nope that don't count,

*****

Now radio,

over the years the only thing I know that made radio better, the opinion of not just me but others, was FM STEREO

Quadraphonic (remember that in the early 70's) - failed

AM STEREO - failed

RDS - failed in our country (I know some of you will say the consumer did not want it, some did, do it for them)

Analog to Digital - never given the chance,

pretty decent number of failures for just an audio service

Look a number of you are very smart, I respect that, but I think some of you know deep down inside radio messed up, if you don't feel that way, that is OK, but you know how I feel - radio messed up.
I respect you all.

You all have a Happy New Year!!!!