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Again, Agency - Client research is OFF

Did anyone read the letter that was sent by Clear Channel, Radio One, and others to Arbitron?

Research it... It's a shocker.. They want the PPM in ages 6+!!! :eek:

David... I think they have been reading this thread just long enough.
 
6+,
The Beave said:
Did anyone read the letter that was sent by Clear Channel, Radio One, and others to Arbitron?
Research it... It's a shocker.. They want the PPM in ages 6+!!! :eek:

Read it again. They DO not want 6+ which Arbitron forced on us to try to do a simultaneours TV study. We want 12+, and to increase the 12+ sample.

David... I think they have been reading this thread just long enough.

I don't think there is more than one person on this thread with any frequent and ongoing contact with Arbitron.

PS... read the letter again. Nobody wants 6+, but Arbitron is giving it. You need to seriously improve your reading skills... and this is not a joke or an insult... you totally misread the letter.
 
DavidEduardo said:
6+,
The Beave said:
Did anyone read the letter that was sent by Clear Channel, Radio One, and others to Arbitron?
Research it... It's a shocker.. They want the PPM in ages 6+!!! :eek:

Read it again. They DO not want 6+ which Arbitron forced on us to try to do a simultaneours TV study. We want 12+, and to increase the 12+ sample.

David... I think they have been reading this thread just long enough.

I don't think there is more than one person on this thread with any frequent and ongoing contact with Arbitron.

PS... read the letter again. Nobody wants 6+, but Arbitron is giving it. You need to seriously improve your reading skills... and this is not a joke or an insult... you totally misread the letter.

Yes I did ... I think 6+ will still be there.. maybe compromized to help 12+. but still a shocker that PPM will even exist in Minneapolis when this is said and done.
 
The Beave said:
[Yes I did ... I think 6+ will still be there.. maybe compromized to help 12+. but still a shocker that PPM will even exist in Minneapolis when this is said and done.

If 6-11 is still in the PPM panel, it will be because Arbitron is going against a group of suubscribers that represents a signficant percantage of their income-. 10 days ago, the Spanish Broadcasters Association also spoike out against 6-11, asking it be dropped ans that 18-54 samples be increased instead.

6-11 is a vestige of when Arbitron and Nielsen were doing a joint venture and encoding TV as well. That effort failed, and Nielsen is gone; only TV measures kids historicly so it seems logical to get the wasted meters out of the sample when about 80% of the revenue has spoken... the only company missing of the majors is CBS and their view of the PPM is simplistic and, IMHO, does not benefit radio.

And... PPM does not exist in Minneapolis yet. Only two markets are live, and only one accredited.
 
Well, after reading this, it seems my point of view hasn't changed. Mr.D can argue with "research", I'll argue with dollars.

The Boomers still are sitting on a pile of cash, and if more stations radio would cater, instead of ignore them, we, the radio indusrty, would make more money. It's that simple. There will be no reconciling the brainwashed buyers or 20 something marketers, so the hell with it.

Mr. D, you win. You want us, no, tell us, we only like 300 burnt out, toasted crisp, songs. All of our other memories are non existant. We are now your robotos. Ok, you win.

But we won't be listening. And you just severed your station's clients from the biggest mountain of cash in the history of the U.S. by alienating us. Now, go explain to the retailer why you got more 18-49 year-olds than ever before...but sales are down.

I gotta go. I'm playing Forza2 Motorsport on my XBox 360 on my HDTV Widescreen on my new Pioneer 5.1 Dolby Digital II in my living room with new wall to wall Karastan Carpeting and new Pennsylvania House sofa /loveseat with CFL lighting.

Oh wait...I'm 52! Damn I forgot...I must be using a Philco B&W console, playing Racko by candleight on orange crates! People my age don't buy new things or change brands or try new technology, and we're so poor, I guess I'll call the crew to cancell the new roof, gutters and landscaping.

Mr. D, stick to your research guns. The more you do, the more you send my sales through the roof. You keep marketing to kids and secretaries, young mommies and struggling newlyweds, and I'll keep talking to the still working grandmoms, granddads and business owners...the ones with the real money.
 
amfmsw said...
"You want us, no, tell us, we only like 300 burnt out, toasted crisp, songs. All of our other memories are non existant. We are now your robotos. Ok, you win."

A tight list of great songs is how you win with the Arbitron system of ratings. Is the Arbitron system accurate
and real? Who knows, but that's the playing field. The tight list works. A tight list could be from 300-700 songs in a gold based format.

"Now, go explain to the retailer why you got more 18-49 year-olds than ever before...but sales are down."

In markets #50 and above, we don't talk to retailers that much. Most buys are placed by advertising agencies. And, they want 25-54. In fact, I've seen it going younger recently. 18-49 is becoming the primary "buy".
The agencies RARELY place ads using a 55+ station. We could talk to them 'til we're blue in the face and they won't change their mind. So, don't blame it on radio. The agencies CLIENT decides who they want to market to.

Now, if you're talking about very small markets...play 2,000 songs catering to 50+ listeners. But, you'll need some very good salespeople.

Saying boomers are sitting on a pile of cash is a crock. For every boomer sitting on a pile of cash, there's a hippie living in a tent behind a taco house in Venice Beach.
 
amfmsw said:
The Boomers still are sitting on a pile of cash, and if more stations radio would cater, instead of ignore them, we, the radio indusrty, would make more money. It's that simple. There will be no reconciling the brainwashed buyers or 20 something marketers, so the hell with it.

As Surfdude says, in the major markets (top 50 is over 70% of the population of the US) big percentages of the revenue comes from ad agencies. They don't buy 55+ because the client told them what to buy.

Media buyers at agencies can't change demos. In most cases, they do not even live in the same market as the stations they are buying. All they know is who gives the right CPP, the right value added and who contributes to the best reach and frequency for the market goals.

Agency clients don't ask for 55+ because the ROI is not there. To make each sale with a mature consumer often costs more than the profit on the sale. This is why demos for buys are getting younger... less set preferences, and the opportunity to brand for long periods of consumption.

Why don't you go tell the President of P&G that his marketing research and marketing department suck?
 
Making radio totally subservient to marketing sucks.

If this shoe fits,
enjoy your money, but don't ever believe it's in the best public service, or any other than the best for the bottom line.

You can't tell marketing people anything. Their whole job is to tell others what to think (or buy).
 
Tom Wells said:
Making radio totally subservient to marketing sucks.

In no way. Marketing, which includes promotion and advertising in radio, simply lets the listener know what is available to them. Using an easy to remember name and promoting it widely is no different than any other product or service, whether it be a soup or a salad dressing.

If this shoe fits,
enjoy your money, but don't ever believe it's in the best public service, or any other than the best for the bottom line.

How does giving a station a name affect in any way the ability to serve the listener? In most of the world, including places like Mexico and England and France and Germany and on and on, stations have names, not call letters. It makes it easier to remember each station, too.

You can't tell marketing people anything. Their whole job is to tell others what to think (or buy).

It may have been that you did not have to market a station as much 60 years ago, when most metros had only a handful of stations (Cleveland had 4 or 5 until the late 40's, for example, and now has over 30). Today, the competition is so intense due to having so many stations, it is essential for each station to constantly remind listeners on and off the air what the station has to offer.

Burma Shave died because its marketing did not reach anyone any more. Ipana died because P&G made a better toothpaste and marketed it superbly via a significant USP, flouride. I could go on and on about products that died due to bad marketing... including many radio stations... but you seem to feel that letting the consumer know about how many options they have is somehow evil. You act older than your years....
 
Even if agencies start buying 55+, it's not going to help the oldies format much. The most-listened to format 55+ and especially 65+ is news/talk. AC is second, country is third. Oldies is fourth, with about 10-percent of the audience 55-64, and about 5-percent of the audience 65+. Country is the favorite music format 65+, just slightly ahead of AC.

You can find all the specific numbers here: http://wargod.arbitron.com/scripts/ndb/fmttrends2.asp
 
Sorry Guys... The more that is put up, the more I feel how subjective it really is. :-\
 
Most buys are placed by advertising agencies. And, they want 25-54. In fact, I've seen it going younger recently. 18-49 is becoming the primary "buy".
The agencies RARELY place ads using a 55+ station. We could talk to them 'til we're blue in the face and they won't change their mind. So, don't blame it on radio. The agencies CLIENT decides who they want to market to.


Exactly my point, surf, exactly. My contention is they're off the mark. Look at the HUGE pot Pharmceutacals spend on TV. They use that medium for Viagra, Cialis, Lipitor and more because radio doesn't reach them anymore. Look at the huge catagory of financial houses, most all spent on TV because radio doesn't reach them anymore. If there was poor ROI, why spend any on TV? Any $? Because the people they're targeting have HUGE ROI! Cadillac bought the rights to Led Zeppelin's "Rock 'N Roll". They're market share moved up, while the average age of Cadillac buyer went down to 55 from 65, while market share went up and sales increased handsomely. Cadillac agency dumped that successful campaign to appeal to 30-40 year olds. They have now all but surrendered to the Japanese and German Luxury manufacturers.

You would be hard pressed to find an Oldies or Classic Hits station playing 700 songs. That would be a relief of some sort. My point exactly. The prisoners of war of the American Revolution in Massachusettes were fed a daily diet of Lobster. They rioted, saying it was cruel to force them to eat the same lobster every day. Playing 300 songs may help cume, but it kills TSL. Without a strong AQH, you defeated your purpose by giving the station a smaller share.

Ipana toothpaste went out of business because it was killing people! It's active ingredient was hexachorophene! It gave kids oral cancer!

And as far as half the boomers living in shacks, please re-read the very first post, and the link. You have missed the point alltogether.
 
We don't disagree on the buying power of 50+ listeners. I think retail would be smart
to target 45-64 - but they don't. I know direct sellers outside of the largest markets
do get some older retail business.

Radio's biggest advertisers, Automobiles, Insurance, and fast food are not targeting
50+.

Boomers with stacks of cash should get XM/Sirius. Big playlists and no commercials!
(I'm a Sirius subscriber and Oldies PD)
Over the air radio plays by different rules - Arbitron.
 
amfmsw said:
[Exactly my point, surf, exactly. My contention is they're off the mark. Look at the HUGE pot Pharmceutacals spend on TV. They use that medium for Viagra, Cialis, Lipitor and more because radio doesn't reach them anymore.

No, they use TV and print because of the legal disclaimers that can be done in small print, or in TV with scrolls and on screen elements or "masked" with pleasant visual while they tell you you could die from a 3 day long erection.

And radio does serve older persons. Half the news talk audience is over 55, and big pieces of classic rock, urban AC, country, soft AC, etc. are 55+, although unsalable. And 55+ usage is as high as 35-54, in fact.

The issue is that there are plenty of options for an advertiser seeking 55+ on the radio, all strong, but there are no buyers. Plus, stations could not live just on impotence ads, anyway.

Look at the huge catagory of financial houses, most all spent on TV because radio doesn't reach them anymore. If there was poor ROI, why spend any on TV? Any $?

That category is pretty much dead, if you are referring to banking and mortgages. Again, most of these need on screen or small print disclaimers, particularly brokerages and mutual funds and insurance.

Because the people they're targeting have HUGE ROI! Cadillac bought the rights to Led Zeppelin's "Rock 'N Roll". They're market share moved up, while the average age of Cadillac buyer went down to 55 from 65, while market share went up and sales increased handsomely.

That means half the buyers are under 55, which is what they are after. GM, in case you did not notice, is a candidate for bankruptcy in the next few years, and high gas usage caddys will not help them.

New car spots are almost, by the way, pure appetite appeal meaning they need visuals.

Cadillac agency dumped that successful campaign to appeal to 30-40 year olds. They have now all but surrendered to the Japanese and German Luxury manufacturers.

The campaign was not as successful as you think. Widely reported in Ad Age as being sexy without sales. And the other brands have much more fuel efficiency, and they don't fall apart.

You would be hard pressed to find an Oldies or Classic Hits station playing 700 songs.

KRTH in LA is 600 songs, KCBS is about the same excluding the specialty shows. Same for WOGL.

That would be a relief of some sort. My point exactly. The prisoners of war of the American Revolution in Massachusettes were fed a daily diet of Lobster. They rioted, saying it was crel to force them to eat the same lobster every day. Playing 300 songs may help cume, but it kills TSL. Without a strong AQH, you defeated your purpose by giving the station a smaller share.

In PPM, cume is everything. TSL flattens, no matter what the format, so it is less important.

Ipana toothpaste went out of business because it was killing people! It's active ingredient was hexachorophene! It gave kids oral cancer!

It could have been reformulated. OK, move to next contender... Colgate. P&G outmarketed the whole category and won.

And as far as half the boomers living in shacks, please re-read the very first post, and the link. You have missed the point alltogether.

I said half the retirees, not half the boomers. You try re-reading. In any case, the fact is that radio is not used for 55+ despite the audience being big and consistent. No station can survive without a revenue base.
 
surf...agreed (except the last graph)

Auto/Insirance amd others are heavy radio users indeed. But, let me propose this. When the target moves, you change your aim, no?

If the average listener in 1958 was 18, they are now 68, and really getting out of the ad demo for most products. The oldies diet of Chuck Berry and do wop has moved to later Elvis and Motown and Three Dog Night, yes? Those early evergreens can still be spotlighted, but I wouldn't be playing most of them in 6a-7p anymore myself. Classic Hits? They are moving on from Steppenwolf and ? and The Mysterians to Alan Parsons Project and Donna Summer, yes? It's a natural progression. But the state of advertising has caused the premature dropping of great songs, and ignores the needs of a generation.

When I began in radio in 1973, the prime demo was 25-54. Most, not all, ad agencies have been standing still in 25-54 (49 really) for decades. Most haven't seen the value of moving the correct products with the correct age demo. They began moving them to print and TV. Therefore, radio surrendered instead of becoming a marketing partner.

Now I fully understand that these formats have a finite life. Big Band stations gave way to standards to oldies to classic hits. AM Top 40 gave way to News/Talk Sports. The music of my youth will will see the end of it's shelf life someday, but some consultants have burried us while still alive! And I strongly feel that sheep following agency orders instead of saying "hey, wait a minute, you're wrong on this product" has really both radio and clients. That is my point.

Radio moved the target to hit the bullet already aimed, instead of instructing the hunter to changes his sights. Does that make any sense?
 
Yes, it all makes sense. Back in the late 80s there was a lot of talk
about the main target demo shifting to 35-64, because the population
was shifting that way. The agencies and big advertisers never moved that way.
I think most agency time being methods are lousy and ill-targeted because they are lazy.

I had a big car dealer client in a large market that bought the top 10 stations, 12+, for 25 years.
His theory: a 12 year old will be of driving age soon enough, and he wants to be "top of mind".
Plus, they had cars for everybody from teens to seniors. Great long term thinking. That 12 year old 25
years ago is now 37. An agency would never take that approach.

By the way, that dealer is the largest Ford dealer in North Carolina and probably in a good position in a down economy.

Sadly, most agencies continue to apply their crappy CPP approach to every buy. They don't look deeper than
the Arbitron generating ratings.
 
DavidEduardo said:
Tom Wells said:
Making radio totally subservient to marketing sucks.

In no way. Marketing, which includes promotion and advertising in radio, simply lets the listener know what is available to them. Using an easy to remember name and promoting it widely is no different than any other product or service, whether it be a soup or a salad dressing.

If this shoe fits,
enjoy your money, but don't ever believe it's in the best public service, or any other than the best for the bottom line.

How does giving a station a name affect in any way the ability to serve the listener? In most of the world, including places like Mexico and England and France and Germany and on and on, stations have names, not call letters. It makes it easier to remember each station, too.

You can't tell marketing people anything. Their whole job is to tell others what to think (or buy).

It may have been that you did not have to market a station as much 60 years ago, when most metros had only a handful of stations (Cleveland had 4 or 5 until the late 40's, for example, and now has over 30). Today, the competition is so intense due to having so many stations, it is essential for each station to constantly remind listeners on and off the air what the station has to offer.

Burma Shave died because its marketing did not reach anyone any more. Ipana died because P&G made a better toothpaste and marketed it superbly via a significant USP, flouride. I could go on and on about products that died due to bad marketing... including many radio stations... but you seem to feel that letting the consumer know about how many options they have is somehow evil. You act older than your years....


Burma Shave came back, based on someone's idea that cake shaving soap is still a good idea.

I found it and am buying it, although there IS no marketing. People will find and buy what they need without people telling them.

I act older than my years in some ways, but I have always been a contrarian, and that's maybe more of what you are reading into this.

I have to create some pretty definite, tangible results at work, and find marketers to be employed in the world of fuzzy results.

The worst marketing is where a radio station wastes a minute to tell you what they bring you...as if we didn't already know, or forgot since yesterday.
 
Tom Wells said:
The worst marketing is where a radio station wastes a minute to tell you what they bring you...as if we didn't already know, or forgot since yesterday.

As a friend says constantly, "there is no such thing as a 60 second promo" meaning if it takes 60 seconds to tell the story, the story is too complicated or the promo is badly done.

Promos, however, are very important in reminding people of what a station offers so that the listener will have their memory reinforced as to what might be the right thing to listen to later or tomorrow. Setting appointments or teasing is the single most important thing in the PPM measurement, and reminders are essential to appointment setting.

The fact is that most people confuse the content and offerings of many stations, and promotion on and off air is useful to clarify that.
 
jh said:
Even if agencies start buying 55+, it's not going to help the oldies format much. The most-listened to format 55+ and especially 65+ is news/talk. AC is second, country is third. Oldies is fourth, with about 10-percent of the audience 55-64, and about 5-percent of the audience 65+. Country is the favorite music format 65+, just slightly ahead of AC.

You can find all the specific numbers here: http://wargod.arbitron.com/scripts/ndb/fmttrends2.asp

You are right on target here. And some 55+ plus moved to news/talk because their Oldies stations disappeared. Terrestrial radio should be thankful for that. Otherwise most markets could probably be covered by 5 music stations and 2 talk stations.
 
TheFonz said:
You are right on target here. And some 55+ plus moved to news/talk because their Oldies stations disappeared. Terrestrial radio should be thankful for that. Otherwise most markets could probably be covered by 5 music stations and 2 talk stations.

Since no station programs specifically to 55+ (although 55+ listening is as high as 45-54), whatever happens in 55+ does not affect any stations in any market. LA, for example, would still have 37 FMs doing all manner of music formats aimed at 18-54.
 
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